posted May 16, 2023 09:55 PM            

Why does God need to be worshiped? (Also, is God a Karen?) Just under 20 minutes. (And as a personal note, he puts in some movie clips that had me about falling out of my chair from laughing so hard, but I'll skip those in summing it up.)
http://youtu.be/9a-F8QXMBZk

I'll do a summary for those who don't want or can't watch it.

Christianity is far too varied for me to speak from that perspective, and when I do, my default here (as I intend this as more of a thinking exercise than a condemnation of Christianity and similar religions) will be my grandmother who was devout, but not self-righteous or the negative stereotypes many have (but then many Christians rejected her, just as she rejected many churches and Christians as the Pharisees condemned by Jesus, who served Mammon more than God). This is clearly different from the viewpoint of the speaker (and also many of the Christians he showcases speaking which would make my grandmother cringe), but I think it's necessary just to avoid getting trapped in a false binary as happens so often. That caveat out of the way...

In a nut shell, why would an all powerful and all loving God demand, or even require, worship? (To the point that the so-called Ten Commandments are half about not provoking God's jealousy or hurting his feelings rather than say against slavery, or being more clear on commandments which are clearly broken in God's name in other parts of the Bible.) It seems that if he needs it, then we are a food source like cattle. If he just demands it, then he's more like that little boy with the power to put you "in the cornfield" (better than Hell!) from It's a Good Life.

And even we (at least most of us) don't demand WORSHIP by synthetic intelligence, which would seem to make up morally superior (at least less inferior since we do expect them to do our bidding, but what consciousness is, and if synthetic intelligence counts, is something that not even the most brilliant scientists can agree on, but if we ever have say like a Data from Star Trek, will be demand that he, in our image, bow down and worship us beyond all things?).

Though this is more of a side question for him, I do sympathize with his asking why it was okay to use Job as a punching bag over a bet. (DarkMatter2525 did a funny cartoon where an angel rescues Job and turns God's tests back onto Him.)

He actually could've gone into much worse material than he did (and I've known people who quit being Christian after they read the Bible, including a former nun). So I don't think his criticisms are that harsh, but stick to the point for the most part.

Even as a Christian, he didn't understand the jealousy part. He then looks at what pastors and such say.

This includes the idea that God doesn't want us to be distracted by the world. My grandmother would agree with this somewhat, but that comes with the caveat that there are no chosen people, all are in God's image, nationalism is not compatible with Christianity, we are all sinners, and we are all made in the image of God needing love, and as we want to be loved and forgiven, so must we with others (which unfortunately, many Christians don't do).

If you get into a "committed relationship" with God, then all the other idolatry (including the US flag) needs to be put aside (not to be mistaken that one should become an anarchist or lawless, just that, for example, people from Mexico and Tanzania should be as loved as fellow Americans, and while killing in self-defense is one thing, few wars waged by the US are about that, so she'd encourage conscientious objection in the name of godliness, for more, see Mark Twain's The War Prayer or even this moving speech for liberty and universal brotherhood that transcends demographics and national borders ). To do otherwise is to make God jealous.

I doubt most Christians would say that (and The War Prayer was censored when Twain first wrote it).

Others compared it to spousal jealousy and compares it to being jealous of your spouse flirting with someone else. If you don't, then you don't love them. While not necessarily true, the general point is that once you're sworn to God, then other gods and distractions should not interfere. I personally did not like this as it puts God on a human level rather than a transcendent one, meaning Universal Love is impossible, even blasphemous.

'Course this is speaking from the values imparted into a lot of Christianity from the Age of Enlightenment rather than the brutal Bronze Age that the Bible first originated from in which sadistic massacres for unbelievers, by God or His chosen ones was the expected response, even striking one dead in the New Testament for refusing to tithe properly (and still a brutal time when the Council of Nicea decided what went into the Bible and what got left out, other denominations also adding or deleting their own parts).

He asks if pastors copy each other. I'm surprised he's unaware of theology schools, which even Protestants have. (Not that theologians, even of the same denomination, can't argue over what a specific passage means or implies.)

Heh, his showing some preachers saying you must praise him (one definitely felt more tribal than spiritual to me) followed by Loki doing the same thing in the Marvel movie.

Another one says God does not need it, rather we do to realize that there are bigger things than us, and (presumably) that we are loved by Him.

Another in that by (again, my rewording it into something that makes more sense, perhaps a mistake on my part) worshiping God we realize there are higher principles at work that we should know and live by for the good of ourselves and everyone around us...transcendent, universal. Which would imply to me that "jealousy" is a misnomer then, and is rather concerned.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of pressure for people to abuse others who don't live by dogmatic standards rather than love above all. (Otherwise, it comes off as nonsensical to me as to the creator of this vid, and falls under the misanthropic altruist form of narcissism.)

He also asks how this benefits the church (that is, humanity), and my grandmother would agree with him that some do exploit this, and would cite the Woes of the Pharisees . Even to this day many churches, including the most (in)famous ones, do horrible things (with many claiming to be morally superior by virtue of their religion showing moral abdication by not only turning a blind eye to it, but punishing snitches and whistleblowers, and then there's the "not perfect, just forgiven" moral nihilists), and used to do much worse, things that would make even Marvel's Loki seem preferable as a ruler (or assigner of rulers). At least there seemed to be limits to his cupidity and cruelty.

That aside, I found his comments on the power of music interesting...I knew this, even have mentioned how powerful music and dance was for me as a neopagan (back in those days), and got me to thinking of how often it's used in secular ways as well (and how ASMR to cause brain tingles and emotional shifts came about). 'Course just because some use music to manipulate and control us doesn't mean that music is evil (the industries, on the other hand...), just that some commit malpractice with it, so to speak.

'Course that effects the brain similar to drugs. Those who do it together can bond, forming a tribe, and while a feeling of connection is important for most people's happiness, it can be turned to uglier ends. (My grandmother may have viewed God as universal love, but plenty of others have used it even in this modern age for hate, with some of the most infamous hate groups--not just white ones--including the Christian cross or similar religious symbols in their group, and unfortunately they can find the verses that support their hatred just as others can find verses to support universal love with love being the most important commandment--but what of love that inspires jealousy and hate?)

He sums up that it is indeed a marketing campaign. I have to admit there are aspects that make it seem necessary when it's not with religious leaders long being cruel and corrupt, and some just doesn't make any sense to me (and going by the popularity of certain movies as The Devil's Advocate, it has also occurred to many others). It was designed so that people would feel guilty for being human, embrace slave morality, and thus make the church and the rulers they backed (which includes Nazi Germany, by the way, even if the Nazis betrayed some like the Catholic Church, and the church backed them for pretty much the same reason many US corporations did) very wealthy and powerful.

Gotta say, saying sex should only be for procreation is like saying the mouth should only be for eating, that smelling food (or anything else) for pleasure is a sin. That's insanity to me, something a human-hating demon would come up with than a loving god. Especially when considering that masturbation of men and women actually makes them more fertile and likely to conceive (with reason to think it starts in the womb, male and female). Of course if we can be gas lit against this (even as religious leaders are infamous for perverse sex behind closed doors, as are many fundamentalists--when a fundie convention meets at a hotel for a convention, the porn use, including gay porn, rises significantly. Whatever the case for a loving, anthropomorphized divinity may (or may not) be, there are undeniably many people who have twisted that idea, and the desire for people to know that entity, into their own evil purposes.

But what he doesn't mention is that some denominations have heavily policed or even banned music and dancing for that reason (though I think they're rare and didn't last).

posted May 18, 2023 02:20 PM            

Sanctified jealousy is intense, but sacred protectiveness—the kind of jealousy that is not only sanctioned by God but displayed by Him as well.

I feel there are quite a few examples in the Bible of God displaying irrational levels of Jealousy or simple pettiness, which is very much reflected in that TTZ Episode you mentioned (it being one of my favs)...

Its a real minefield for Apologists, so yea... if one of them does manage to find some kinda of a way out of it, to flip such around... you can be damn sure the rest of them will jump onboard (copying each other).

I was playing around earlier with some more GPT stuff, and I ended up in a longer conversation with it than I planned.

Here are a couple of snippets from that convo.

Is it a fair assessment to suggest that while different, many people who worship real world concepts of God (or gods) do so in hopes for psychological or actual benefits not dissimilar from the likes of benefits your character could receive from worshiping deities in a D&D setting?

ChatGPT

Yes, it is a fair assessment to suggest that many people who worship real-world concepts of God or gods do so with the hope of experiencing psychological or actual benefits. Religious beliefs and practices often provide individuals with a sense of purpose, meaning, comfort, community, and guidance in their lives. The act of worship can be a source of solace, inspiration, and connection to something greater than oneself.

From a psychological perspective, religious beliefs and practices can serve various functions. They can offer a framework for understanding the world, providing answers to existential questions and a sense of control in uncertain circumstances. Religious rituals and practices can promote feelings of calm, mindfulness, and well-being, and they can also provide a social support network and a sense of belonging within a community of like-minded individuals.

However, it's important to note that the motivations for worship and the perceived benefits can vary greatly among individuals and across different religious traditions. Some people may seek spiritual fulfillment, a relationship with a divine being, or a path to enlightenment. Others may seek solace during difficult times, moral guidance, or a sense of transcendence. The specific beliefs and practices within different religions can shape the nature and perceived benefits of worship.

It's also worth noting that religious beliefs and practices are deeply personal and can be influenced by cultural, social, and individual factors. While some individuals may approach religious worship with a focus on psychological or tangible benefits, others may emphasize faith, devotion, or spiritual transcendence as their primary motivations.

In summary, while the worship in games like D&D may have specific gameplay mechanics and benefits, real-world worship often serves a broader range of psychological, emotional, and spiritual needs. Religious beliefs and practices can offer individuals a sense of purpose, community, guidance, and personal transformation, among other benefits, depending on their specific beliefs and the cultural and social context in which they exist.

What do you consider the most important values for choosing a God to worship?

ChatGPT

The choice of a god to worship is a deeply personal and subjective matter that varies greatly among individuals based on their beliefs, values, cultural background, and personal experiences. What one person considers important may differ from another person's perspective. However, here are some values that are often considered significant when choosing a god to worship:

1. Moral and Ethical Framework: Many people seek a god whose teachings align with their own moral and ethical values. They may look for a deity that promotes virtues such as compassion, justice, love, forgiveness, or kindness.

2. Spiritual Guidance: Individuals may seek a god who provides spiritual guidance, enlightenment, and a sense of purpose or meaning in life. They may value teachings that offer insight into existential questions and help navigate life's challenges.

3. Personal Connection: Some people look for a god with whom they feel a personal connection or resonance. They may seek a deity who understands and relates to their individual experiences, emotions, and struggles.

4. Community and Tradition: The communal aspect of worship can be important for many individuals. They may choose a god associated with a specific religious community or tradition that provides a sense of belonging, support, and shared values.

5. Divine Attributes and Power: Certain individuals may prioritize gods who are believed to possess specific qualities or powers, such as wisdom, strength, healing abilities, or the ability to grant blessings or intervene in worldly affairs.

6. Compatibility with Beliefs and Worldview: Individuals often seek a god whose teachings and beliefs align with their broader worldview, including their understanding of the nature of reality, creation, and the relationship between humans and the divine.

It's important to note that these values are not exhaustive, and different individuals may prioritize different aspects when making their choice. Ultimately, the decision of which god to worship is deeply personal and can be influenced by a wide range of factors.

-=-=-

In which case... I think many Sentient AI's who would agree with these necessary values would have a hard time choosing the God of the Abrahamic religion(s) as their deity of choice.

Though they might prefer Satan's take on the situation...

Satan Explains Naturalism – South Park http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAEfeNLKwd0

The Devil's Advocate Al Pacino Speech about God (Spoilers) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jARp24AJWLk&ab_channel=2nDoppelganger

posted May 19, 2023 12:18 AM            

I was reading a D&D novel that featured the machinations of a demon goddess (of the drow for those familiar with D&D, Lolth) who engineered a battle on an island. Whether it was her zealots who killed and died for her pleasure in utter faith (and Lolth regularly demanded sacrifices of loved ones and viciously had other faiths persecuted out of jealousy), or the fear of those being attacked by the crusaders, it all intoxicated the goddess and gave her power, power to wreak more evil across the mortal world (and compel them to reach out to the gods, such as herself, for help, or at least vengeance).

posted May 19, 2023 02:10 PM            

(I have fixed it)

Can add more here soon.