posted April 19, 2009 02:10 AM         

Re: those of us who are...All humans are highly vulnerable to the pervasive influence (both subtle and blatent) of bigoted social norms. That's why so many people still conform to racist stereotypes, the biological roots of which have long been refuted. It's the same with gender. People raised in oppression enact oppressive stereotypes.

posted April 19, 2009 02:10 AM         

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I also wonder about women with strong emphasis on masculine signs (fire,air) because they tend to not fit in with female stereotypes and don't want to be involved in traditional female roles....especially people with strong fire signs tend to be more aggressive.

also Scorpio is very tricky with it being a feminine sign,and being ruled by Mars and Pluto.

a prominent Uranus could also fit because of being unconventional

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I have an aries mars, uranus conjunct my ASC and alot of 'traditional' roles such as wife and mother make me feel like I've eaten 10 dozen glazed donuts. Its probably because of the way they're *suppose* to be in society. Or the exponential number of wives and mothers I've come across who happen to be around my age in this military town that I live in now. If what I've witnessed in the past 10 months is exactly how marriage and motherhood is suppose to be....I almost want to barf. I think if I ever end up in those roles it will be defined in my own way.

posted April 19, 2009 02:24 AM           

My brother...is not like that.

Im half-way. Cautious at the start and rightly so. Able to "let go" when all is good and other blokes cant see me acting daft.

These lyrics are a good example of what you talk about with maybe a rose-tinted glasses view of life.

Some people live for the fortune
Some people live just for the fame
Some people live for the power, yeah
Some people live just to play the game
Some people think that the physical things
Define what's within
And I've been there before
But that life's a bore
So full of the superficial

Night all. Hopefully nice and chilled when I be back.

posted April 19, 2009 02:25 AM         

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PA, what about the enormous population of intersex people, many of whom are needlessly mutilated as babies through purely cosmetic surgery to make them conform to gender norms? Many people are not even born one or the other sex.

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People are born as they are - male, female, hermaphrodite, gay, straight, different skin colours, eye colours, boob sizes, whatever. I don't see the reason to play with any of it. I believe the problem is not taking people as they are. It makes people not take themselves as they are.

I don't believe that parents should be forced to choose a gender for their children or the need to do that. But I've never been in that position. And the thing is that as a parent, I think for most parents, you try to make the best choices you can. As human beings I think most people do the best that they can with who and what they are and have at any given time.

People are born as they are for whatever reasons. If it's okay by God, I don't see the need to **** with it. But as humans our society isn't structured or evolved that way and so we have to fit in it somehow - even just for some sense of survival. Not saying I like it - but just seeing it that way.

posted April 19, 2009 02:41 AM         

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Re: those of us who are...All humans are highly vulnerable to the pervasive influence (both subtle and blatent) of bigoted social norms. That's why so many people still conform to racist stereotypes, the biological roots of which have long been refuted. It's the same with gender. People raised in oppression enact oppressive stereotypes.

People are so DESPERATE to categorize. That's why fully healthy intersex babies are made one or the other by doctors, and why transgender people are so vulnerable to brutal attacks.

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Off-topic, but this reminds me of something I read about my virgo SN. Weird. O__o

I have to almost fully disagree with this. There's a difference between what makes up my identity and trying rigidly fit myself or people into a rigid schema. I don't do the latter. Its like, Since you're *this*, I expect you to act *this* certain way or have *these* types of hobbies. I think of that as alot like that middle-school concept of conformity which I was certain we grew out of, but I realize I may be unrealistic concerning other people's attitudes. It doesn't really apply to me...I just don't care. *shrugs*

posted April 19, 2009 02:52 AM         

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But as humans our society isn't structured or evolved that way and so we have to fit in it somehow - even just for some sense of survival. Not saying I like it - but just seeing it that way.

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I totally agree, PA, and see it that way too. But that's no reason to assert that societally-based, sexist gender norms are "natural", biological, or innate differences.

That's why understanding that many people are neither BORN "female" nor "male", and reading up on the many genetic, genital, neurological and hormonal varieties thereof is so illuminating. Then, when you make a sweeping stereotype about how men and women have different capacities, you have to account for the fact that we humans fall biologically and neurologically into a rather varying spectrum, not two categories.

posted April 19, 2009 03:06 AM         

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But that's no reason to assert that societally-based, sexist gender norms are "natural", biological, or innate differences.

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I think societal "norms" are totally different things to natural elements. Whether we like it or not, men and women are designed differently. That's a natural design.

The rest of it is societal - as well as personal preference, which can be coloured by that sense of conformity.

Of course, as individuals we add quirks to these. It's never going to be black and white.

posted April 19, 2009 03:13 AM         

I am saying that actually, there are NOT TWO "natural" categories...there is much more biological variety than that. Even among people who appear to fall easily into one of those categories as it is commonly understood, there is enormous physiological and neurological variety.

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Whether we like it or not, men and women are designed differently.

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posted April 19, 2009 03:15 AM         

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DL, I don't see the disagreement. I understand if you try to live your life not confined by those rules...but our whole society is structured around a two-gender system, with particular differences ascribed to each gender. Public restrooms, drivers licenses, etc.

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posted April 19, 2009 03:17 AM         

With any type of "norm" you are going to have exceptions of all shades of grey, but in general conversation you have to keep the conversation in a way that most people are going to relate and want to contribute.

posted April 19, 2009 03:28 AM         

There are people born genetically male,but look like females

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

of course, there are sex hormonal divergent types like females with high levels of testosterone and males with high levels of estrogen. I am the latter

posted April 19, 2009 03:34 AM         

23, you're probably right that I come off as arrogant and desperate, but I think I'm projecting other things too in life(otherwise the gorgeous, cool, witty guy who's not sleeping with me wouldn't be hanging around not sleeping with me.) The reason I have some unwanted guys around now is that I've tried to reactivate my 8th house magnetism after it's been dormant for 15 years, and I am kind of clumsy and rusty at it. ALSO I am very used to being in a committed, one-on-one relationship and not vibing other men. I imagine this kind of thing is typical for newly single/divorced women. I'm not looking for a new relationship, but I want men I like and am attracted to to like and want me back. I'm pretty sure that I sent out an arrogant yet desperate vibe at 17, too, but it was a bigger pool for sure. (I do think my vibe in person is better than online--the main quality people notice in me in real life, my sense of humor, doesn't come out at all in these online forums. I come here when my Cancer Moon is feeling lonely and weepy.)

posted April 19, 2009 03:53 AM         

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Well, God doesn't shave my legs.

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Well exactly! I suppose to be considered socially attractive and a more desirable mate or just as someone with some sense of hygiene, you have to shave your own.

posted April 19, 2009 04:39 AM           

Most of us spend a lot of time either trying to get one, trying 'to make it work', or trying to get out of one! I hate the idea of 'working' at a relationship. It makes me sick to think of it.

The ones that last seem to be because one of the couple is doing an excessive share of the compromising anyway. Otherwise someone's always on some spectrum of whining, or being unimpressed. Pffurghh! Yuk!

I'm considering alternatives, lol. I might just hire someone, teehee, or pretend that I'm in one and create an ideal relationship haha.

posted April 19, 2009 06:57 AM         

Rules of a Fun Chase-what most men do:

-Flirt with as many people as you can, you can also make friends with them and keep in contact

-Have sex with as many(2,3,5,100?),when there's an opportunity, to see if there's real chemistry, also this will keep you from being deprived of sex. Making the first move doesn't change a thing if you were flirting anyway

-Don't take rejection too personally. You're probably alright but that doesn't mean you can make anyone fall in love with you. Or maybe you'll be the one to reject the person after the first kiss.

-If you're rejected, go back to your 'friends' from the opposite sex and keep flirting until another opportunity arrives.

As a woman, with sun-moon in mars signs, I think this is quite healthy if you haven't been in a long-term relationship for a while(1-2-3 or more years ?), and there's noone in sight who seems like they would fulfill that role

Also, I believe being flirty friends first is a good thing. Because, my favourite ex-bf was a not-love-at-first-sight one. I fell in love suddenly, after being friends for like, 2-3 months.

However, what doesn't work with me is that, even during a chasing period, there's always 1 person who stands out, and eliminates everyone else, and I'll be obsessed with him, and want to have sex with only him.. yuck, it's because I'm a scorpio..or I'm a woman. But still, it works.

Of course every person and case is unique. I wish Clive Owen had confessed his love to me when I was 18, so we could live happily ever after , like, forever, but for some people it's not like that.

posted April 19, 2009 08:13 AM         

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Seduction is not pursuing. Seduction is being passive in a non-moving aggressive way. They are still moving to her, she did not chase them, they chased her after she laid the bait.

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haha EXACTLY!!

A lot of confusion on this thread

posted April 19, 2009 08:19 AM         

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According to Magi astrology (is it safe to mention them around these parts? lol), Chiron conjunct, trine or sextile Venus tends to give the native a fairy tale view of love. The native is very prone to believe in soul mates, meeting prince charming, and living happily ever after.

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It's QUINCUNX not SEXTILE!!

posted April 24, 2009 06:44 AM         

i'm grateful to have some very understanding friends right now, because i do feel a bit like a loser.

but hey, what doesn't kill u makes u stronger... with time

i don't want to go into my story here, i feel like it won't help me. may be keeping it and pondering the situation is better but i feel able to do that because of the presence of a couple of friends of mine. and also because i've got you all to help me put things into perspective.

thanks a lot.

here is a thread from soul union which talks about all this

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Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors.
Ethiopia