posted April 07, 2010 05:31 PM            

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I have a hard time swallowing that the Johns are 'duped' though.

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In the case of hetero men (but seriously prostitution occurs in many settings these days.. and it is not only a hetero male to female prostitute - situation)- The duping is this:

The system tells one -

1. Some sexual things are WRONG and TABOO. They are simply not "Christian" (or insert whatever religion).. They are not "OK". Certain things you simply don't do with the little "wifey" at home.

2. The perfect woman is RIGHT here in a porn mag. This is the woman that you should all want. This is the woman that you should all be after. I am referring mainly to western men in western society.
*If you have a look at different societies, the standard of beauty changes*

3. THIS woman will NEVER EVER want you. This is another message. THIS woman is BEYOND your ability as a male to *get* unless you PAY.

4. But since we are such GOOD SAMARITAN consumerist little pricks.. we will provide this perfect woman FOR you - in the porn mags, in the strip clubs and in "brothels".

posted April 07, 2010 05:53 PM            

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You make it sound like adults are as impressionable as 5 year olds.

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Well it seems they are impressionable.. Because if there was a vote, I think we'd get a large majority saying "ay!" to a few of those things..

Questions such as..

"Is this sexual act taboo and anti-Christianity?"

"Would you ever do this with the "good" girl next door.. or with your wife?"

etc...

The whole point of consumerism is implanting a desire for something - saying LOOK here is something you need and want.. Here are the sexual acts you *desire*.. Here are women you *should* desire.. Then saying those things are wrong and taboo, which makes them even more desired - and then putting a price on those things.

I really think this happens extremely often.. and I'm surprised you think of a majority of people as not impressionable.

Of course it is everyone's individual decision what they do. But I can't take up this problem with every individual. My biggest problem is with the system we "have" - the system that is creating this situation.. and the people making money out of it.

posted April 07, 2010 06:01 PM            

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I think personal responsibility for the messages we take in IS possible in consenting adults.

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If messages were not taken in - we wouldn't even have a "standard" of beauty.. which we obviously do. Pick up any form of media.
I do agree there *should* be a personal responsibility for the messages taken in.. but from what "should" be the case to what "is" the case.. there is a way to go.

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People go to prostitutes for a variety of reasons, and not just because they're brainwashed.

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Benedict my point is - they wouldn't even pick up a porn magazine if they were not brain washed.

We are living a fairly uptight society. Sure things have loosened up some.. but several things are still extremely taboo.
As I was saying on a previous thread if our society was more akin to hunter-gatherer ones.. where people were mostly naked most of the time -- there wouldn't be nearly as much sexual tension around nudity or a desire to pay for something like porn for instance -- in my opinion.

posted April 07, 2010 06:10 PM            

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My biggest problem is with the system we "have" - the system that is creating this situation.. and the people making money out of it.

If no one was making money here.. as I said - if there was NO market.. we wouldn't have a problem in the first place.

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I can agree with this, but from a different side. Like I said, intrisically I don't really care if people sell sex for money. But I think that the monetary factor is what brings in the criminal factor too (underage girls, slaves, etc. ) like with any other industry that socially 'gray'.

posted April 07, 2010 06:11 PM            

I can't blame any particular individual for the fact that sex has become a "product".

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I think that the monetary factor is what brings in the criminal factor too (underage girls, slaves, etc. ) like with any other industry that socially 'gray'.

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posted April 07, 2010 06:22 PM            

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There a lot of women who are prostitutes out of personal choice. Not every female has a mean nasty pimp going around saying '***** , where's my money!'
I believe in responsibility. If a woman CHOOSES what she's doing for a living then that is her choice.

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Obviously, but you never know if the prostitute you're visiting is doing it out of choice or not. If a man visits a prostitute, there is a probability that she is not doing it out of her own will.

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And I think stomping on the market would have to begin with stomping out men who are willing to pay their money for this

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posted April 07, 2010 07:40 PM            

Do you really think that if sex was no longer taboo *at all*.. If everything changed overnight and sex (in every single shape, form and position) was seen as "saintly" - If nudity was perfectly fine and everyone walked around naked and people basically saw each other naked in all contexts.. at the mall, at work etc.. And everyone was very USED to this new set up.. Do you really think porn and prostitution would bring money in - half as much as they do now?

I don't personally think so. I think most of the popularity is in the taboo-ness -- "the "forbidden fruit" advertisement.

I think this applies for over-consumerism in general (food is another example.. I think something like - 1 in 4 are overweight in US). We simply don't have a need to eat as much as we are eating or kill as many animals as we are killing. Again the "desire" to over-eat -- just like the overdone sexual desire -- are *created* mainly through the media. Someone somewhere is always cashing in on this.. and as long as they are it keeps on keeping on.

But that's ^ unrelated.. Maybe I should ask - Why do you think they are horny for THE particular things that are on sale?

If the "standard" porn look was switched over and all porn magz had Mursi tribe - female pics.. I'm sure people would not be all over that, unless the look was publicized in the media and "sold" to them.

posted April 07, 2010 08:07 PM            

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Publicly condemning men who seek out prostitutes is a good start.

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Well that's not along the lines of what I have in mind.

Public Condemnation for this - goes along quite well with the religious insinuation that sex is "wrong".

I would like to get these men - to simply go back to their normal animalistic selves and get sex without paying - with a consensual partner who is also sexually attracted.

I would like them to understand that they CAN get sex...That they CAN walk into a place and say "would you like to have sex with me tonight" -- and there are many women who WOULD - absolutely for FREE. And there is nothing taboo or weird about two people who meet - are attracted and want to have sex.

I would also like certain women to understand that they needn't deny sexual advances or search for relationships-only, due to religious or social dogmas (If you have another reason - then fine. I have my own reasons to say "no" to one nighters. Like I said I feel uncomfortable physically around people I don't know well. But this is my own issue, and has no connection to the gender of those ppl and no connection to social ideals about the "good little girl" who doesn't have one nighters.).
Basically I would like women to understand that they can really just have sex and enjoy it.. and leave it at that.

posted April 07, 2010 09:23 PM            

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Yes, its a big problem....but as long as no one is putting a gun to the John's head to spend this money on that prossie, then they are not the victims. As long as they don't make up the majority of bodies tossed in garbage cans and rivers in these situations....they are certainly not the victims.

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I thought we were only discussing prostitution - possibly rape (if prostitution was forced as amowls put it)
Are we now discussing murder?

I don't see anyone as a victim nor do I see anyone as guilty. I simply can't point my finger at one individual or another for a world-wide problem, as I explained.

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And what about when there was no media? What about remote places that have no media but still have prositution? It existed back then too, no one had TVs or other similar mouth pieces to tell these men to go pick up that or do this.

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The media is a tool to publicize things world wide.. But there are always "local" - "small-scale" means of media, like local newspapers. I'm sure these remote places still have a particular religion and abide by particular laws.. and sex is probably as taboo if not more.. than it is in more urbanized Western countries. I was not only referring to modern-day television & the internet, when I said media.

Whenever someone wants to make money out of a "business" they need to publicize that business to get clients.. and "advertising" in any shape or style.. is a form of -media- from my perspective.

In order to get clients there has to be a desire for the product.. and the product has to be something that people don't already have access to freely - otherwise they wouldn't pay for it at all.

If the product is something taboo - all the better! Because that boosts demand.

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It existed back then too

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posted April 07, 2010 09:24 PM            

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Am I the only one who wants to go back to the astrology of it?

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posted April 07, 2010 09:26 PM            

many people are unattractive but are attracted to very attractive people who will be mostly otherwise unavailable to them.
many people have relational issues.
many people have hormonal issues
many people have traumatic experiences-sex related
many people have psychological issues with their parents.

all or most of that can prevent from getting sex or for that matter any kind of intimacy with a partner.

so , need to define prostitution.
some pay men/women just for talking.
some pay just for eye candy to take to a party.
some pay just to watch.
if you are a celebrity and inspire sexual fantasies and sell pics to tabloids for millions and someone uses these pics to masturbate is that celebrity a prostitute?

if an emergent artist is traded sexual favors in order to get a record deal is that artist a prostitute?

if a child is sold to marry a man 30 years older by her starving father in order to feed the rest of the family is that child a prostitute?

and ,oh, lets not forget that... if a man is an escort/pornstar his job is envied by many men
if a woman is an escort shes just another hooker in the eyes of men, women, society.

sorry i guess i am now guilty of 'sex talk'

posted April 07, 2010 09:33 PM            

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I thought we were only discussing prostitution - possibly rape (if prostitution was forced as amowls put it)
Are we now discussing murder?

I don't see anyone as a victim nor do I see anyone as guilty. I simply can't point my finger at one individual or another for a world-wide problem, as I explained.

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Well lets back track: you said you didn't like the institution because men or whoever are going for these services are duped. Therefore you are implying that they are the likely victims of it. Its always clear that they AREN'T, but on the other end it's not (like Amowls said earlier). You have no idea if the prostitute is doing this out of her own free will or if she was sold into the business. Where as, the 'customer' is paying for the services of his own free will. So to say that the guy is the one being cheated because he's brainwashed or whatever is just not looking at reality, and taking away responsibility.

*edit* And I brought up murder because 9 times out of 10, its the Worker who gets their throats cut in these situations...not the Johns. They're the most vulnerable....going back to the argument of why the customer isn't getting the short end of the stick.

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The media is a tool to publicize things world wide.. But there are always "local" - "small-scale" means of media, like local newspapers. I'm sure these remote places still have a particular religion and abide by particular laws.. and sex is probably as taboo if not more.. than it is in more urbanized Western countries. I was not only referring to modern-day television & the internet, when I said media.

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Well let me give you an example: tribal groups in Kenya have resorted to it, and they have no qualms about women walking around topless or anything like that. In that situation, it has nothing to do with media and everything to do with the growing poverty situation.

posted April 07, 2010 10:05 PM            

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Well lets back track: you said you didn't like the institution because men or whoever are going for these services are duped. Therefore you are implying that they are the likely victims of it. Its always clear that they AREN'T, but on the other end it's not (like Amowls said earlier). You have no idea if the prostitute is doing this out of her own free will or if she was sold into the business. Where as, the 'customer' is paying for the services of his own free will. So to say that the guy is the one being cheated because he's brainwashed or whatever is just not looking at reality, and taking away responsibility.

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Well no - I honestly was not implying that. I don't see them (the "clients") as victims, nor do I see them as guilty. It is partially their own fault for allowing themselves to be brain-washed. I have no judgment re: their victim-status at all.

I do BLAME the system though.. so I do have a judgment on that.

This is one side of the story. I shouldn't have said earlier that it is my only problem with prostitution. That was a stupid thing to say. It's actually *one* of my problems. As I said in my last post on the last page I am extremely disappointed about the situation overall and I find it disgusting that women are pushed and forced into prostitution, often from an early age.

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Well let me give you an example: tribal groups in Kenya have resorted to it, and they have no qualms about women walking around topless or anything like that. In that situation, it has nothing to do with media and everything to do with the growing poverty situation.

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But the poverty is the poverty of those who are prostituting themselves.
The ones "paying" money for the prostitutes are not all that poor.. Right?

And my point was that any product is advertised.. It is advertised for the clients. I still see this as a form of media. Pimping prostitutes is advertising them. Later this leads to "selling" them. A pimp couldn't sell - A prostitute herself couldn't sell - if there was no market and no desire to buy. What I am saying is that the taboo-ness always adds to this desire from the perspective of the client. Kenya does have a legal system and there is also a strong religious basis there. This is STILL taboo in Kenya.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. I got the picture that these tribal women were being sold or prostituted to men who are -not- tribal men.. but rather richer - Western or Westernized - men. From the perspective of these men it would still be taboo.

posted April 07, 2010 10:30 PM            

Orcus has 3:2 orbital resonance with Neptune like Pluto,and so it's a plutino. That's why astronomers named it after the Etruscan God of the Underworld

Therefore, it's astronomically similar to Pluto. Logically, it's astrologically similar.

so it can be about underworld.

Orcus was also a god that kept track of oaths too, punishing people that broke them.

as transneptunian dwarf planet candidate, it's an evolutionary intensified object. Therefore,it's involved with evolutionary intensified lessons,experiences.

The woman also had strong Ixion energy with her Ixion oppose/conjunct Midheaven/Imum Coeli axis which I already pointed out. Ixion has 3:2 orbital resonance with Neptune,and so it is also a plutino like Pluto and Orcus. It was named after the Lapith King who was punished for Zeus for his sexual advances toward Hera. Through his lustiness, he fathered the Centaurus with the fake Hera made from a cloud called Nephele. Centaurus mated with a wild mare,and he became the father of the centaurs. So Ixion was the grandfather of the centaurs.

I actually suspected that the woman had a strong Ixion influence. I feel that Ixion has a stronger sex theme than Pluto does. The mythology is actually more sexual.

Sometimes I think people think Pluto is sex because it is modern ruler of Scorpio and the 8th which the 20th century astrologers gave rulerships before the discovery of the kuiper belt in 1992. Of course, not all astrologers use Pluto nor the outer planets.

my mom has Orcus conjunct the Ascendant with 10 minutes of arc, and I already told about her past as a prostitute when she was a runaway teen in San Francisco,California.
I found that out after it was announced,before it was named.
I have Venus trine Orcus with 41 minutes of arc. I also have Sun contraparallel Orcus with 1 minute of arc ,and that could reflect not only never knowing my biological father but how he was an exconvict/drug dealer, connected to underworld activities.

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted April 07, 2010 11:44 PM              

I used to teach how to strip when I was 21.

At that time transit uranus was opposing venus (my 8th ruler) in my 12th.