posted March 17, 2012 02:51 PM              

Two VERY good threads wellworth reading...
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7107&highlight=orbs http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7867&highlight=orbs

posted March 17, 2012 02:55 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
I love that site, Dawn is a great astrologer.

Orbs are always tricky, especially in synastry/composite.

But even in the natal, it's not always that clear.

For example, in my own chart, my Pluto is 9° away from my Sun, but I don't feel it. I don't count it as a conjunction even though technically speaking, it could still be operating since it's an applying aspect.

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have you checked your declinations? ie: parallels. As in Ami Ann's recent case an out ot sign moon conj sun at 8' BUT in parallel they are CONJ/parallel which brings the conjunction more focus and energy..

posted March 17, 2012 02:57 PM              

quote:

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Part I: On Aspect Orbs Used for Magi Astrology

A note about orbs: when I got their book I spent about a month in a research frenzy, doing a lot of the best research I've ever done. By testing orbs with various techniques, I came up with different orbs than the Magi suggest. I found that when I used an orb of 4 1/2 degrees (4 5/8 to be really particular), that the results were the most accurate. I didn't find a 3 degree orb to be as accurate. I can't tell that much of a difference between an aspect at 2 degrees from exactness and an aspect at 4 degrees from exactness.

I'm finding that the bigger orbs, like those up to 8 or 10 degrees are true in an overall general sense when you look at a person's life as a whole, but that these aspects are not true as an IMMEDIATE PSYCHOLOGICAL REALITY. They still work in the big picture, but they are not as revealing and psychologically relevant as aspects within 4 1/2 degrees. You might observe them working in someone's life, but you don't really observe or feel them in the actual person's psychology.

When forming planetary geometry (T-Squares, Grand Trines, etc.), I'll use some higher orbs. Between 4 5/8 and 5 1/8 I think an aspect is at half strength. And between 5 1/8 and 6 1/8 degrees i think an aspect is at about 1/4 strength. An orb between 6 and 8 or 10 degrees seems true in a general, overall sense, but not as a very powerful psychological reality.

It was really cool to finally come to some of my own conclusions about orbs. I just put it out to stimulate thought.
http://astrologyforthesoul.com/moses/aspcturbz.html

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posted March 17, 2012 02:58 PM              

quote:

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Aspects express themselves more or less strongly according to their importance, or lack of. Moreover, angles between planets never exactly match the standard definition of aspects. Thus, the exactness of the aspect, referred to as "orb" in astrology, is to be considered. If the orb is tight (almost exact aspect), the aspect is more powerful. If the planets are linked by a wide orb aspect, their influence is less strong. Each aspect is allowed a different orb, and traditionally, some astrology schools assign them slightly differing coefficients.

In natal charts, usually accepted orbs (exactness of aspect) are 9 to 10 degrees for oppositions and conjunctions, 7 to 8 degrees for trines and squares, 4 to 5 degrees for sextiles, 2 degrees for quincunxes and sesqui-squares, around 1 degree for semi-sextiles and semi-squares, and often 0.5 to 1 degree for quintiles and their family (semi-quintiles and bi-quintiles).

Much smaller orbs are used in forecasting and synastry works because these techniques require that aspects be more exact if they are to be efficient.

In our programs, we take 11 aspects: the Conjunction, the Opposition, the Trine, the Sextile, the Square, the Semi-Sextile, the Semi-Square, the Sesqui-Square, the Quincunx, the Quintile, and the Bi-Quintile.
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology_aspects.php

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posted March 17, 2012 03:09 PM              

quote:

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Orbs by Jenni Kosarin

The problem with orbs is that astrologers don't generally agree on how many degrees should be allowed for each type of aspect. In The Inner Sky, astrologer Steven Forrest writes: “No orb can be defined rigidly. To attempt to nail them down is like trying to determine the exact day on which your kitten became a cat. It doesn't work.”

Astrologer Robert Hand considers smaller orbs to generally be more accurate, but is rather philosophical about the whole issue. In Horoscope Symbols, he writes: “What the question boils down to is not how far out of orb an aspect can be and still have an effect, but rather how subtle a linkage one will accept as significant.” In other words, with practice, you'll arrive at your own sense of how large or small an orb should be.

Astrologer Robert Hand tends to use relatively small orbs: five degrees for all major aspects. One of his exceptions to this rule is to use orbs wider than five degrees when a chart doesn't have many tight-orb aspects. This was his solution to the problem.

Rose Lineman and Jan Popelka, writing in Compendium of Astrology, use an eight-degree orb for conjunctions and oppositions and smaller orbs for other aspects. Steven Forrest favors orbs of up to five degrees. Although he feels that orbs of six and seven degrees should still be considered, he believes their impact is considerably less. In Forrest's opinion, orbs of eight or nine degrees hardly count. But if an aspect involves the Sun or the Moon, he recommends allowing a wider orb by one or two degrees.

Planets and Orbs

In the past, astrologers assigned particular orbs to particular planets. A Jupiter aspect, for instance, was allowed an orb of ten degrees, which is very wide, considering that the ten degrees applies on either side of the actual degree. In this system, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune,

and Pluto were permitted an eight-degree orb. The Sun got twelve degrees for an orb and the Moon eight.

Most astrology software programs work with orbs between six and eight degrees. If there aren't any tight orbs in the chart, allow orbs of five or six degrees for all aspects. Hand's orbs tend to be smaller than the norm because he uses Midpoints when interpreting a chart.

Learn about the aspects, but don't worry if it doesn't click right away. It takes time to understand these things. To simplify matters, you can choose to focus on one particular area. For example, astrologer Grant Lewi only stuck to the broad strokes in horoscope interpretation. The Sun, Moon, and major aspects were enough for him.

The bottom line is that you can talk to ten different astrologers and get ten different answers on the issue of orbs. This is one of many gray areas in astrology that your own experience will determine for you. Think of this book as a reference manual to guide you as you learn what you'll be personally comfortable with.
http://www.netplaces.com/astrology/aspects/orbs.htm

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posted March 17, 2012 03:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaggiMC:
yes I would count it in 7th. it's bit like standing in a doorway with your back to the room you are leaving and focused or forward movement into the next house along going anti clockwise. Do you feel it in 6th OR 7th??

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Mercury in 6th House

Your mental and communicative abilities will largely be applied to acquiring specialized skills or knowledge for professional use. Your work may demand an intellectual quality of mind, analytical ability and strict attention to detail. There is a concern for personal health, hygiene, tidiness, correct dress and polite speech. You may find success in fields such as science, teaching or administration.

Mercury in 7th House

Your reasoning abilities will largely be applied to the growth and development of the mind through co-operation and communications inside human relationships. You prefer to work in partnership or with others rather than individually. You enjoy good company and social life and have the ability for communicating well with the public in general. Marriage is especially important to your mental well-being. Your partner should be an intellectual type who can give the necessary mental companionship and support. Your qualities are ideally suited to public relations work, counseling and arbitration.

i dunno. i am not that detailed like how i imagine an ocd virgo is but i am organized and neat. health is also important to me.

posted March 17, 2012 03:55 PM              

Here Robert Hand famous author and astrologer talks of orbs from
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cejQfIEAfj4C&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=astrologer+Steven+Forrest++orbs&source=bl&ots=ESh4NWzsM8&sig=7qBx2aLyZm42MY2xC5YZF91Ju5U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iOBkT-r 6O4iJ0AXNiJGMCA&sqi=2&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=astrologer%20Steven%20Forrest%20%20orbs&f=false

posted March 17, 2012 04:01 PM              

I apologise for the quality of this image, I scanned this myself from my book if aspects

From the book ‘Aspects and Personality’ by Karen Hamaker-Zondag

posted March 17, 2012 04:03 PM              

quote:

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excerpt from an astrology lecture .. circa 1980 ..
the speaker is liz greene ..
parent thread: http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/011378.html
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ About Orbs ..
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~
~ Audience: When you're talking about generation influences, the influences of the outer planets, do you use larger orbs than those you would use for a natal chart?
~
~ Liz: No, I would use the same orbs, of around eight to ten degrees for conjunctions and squares and oppositions. But I think that two planets in the same sign, even if they are not technically conjuncting, tend to give some feeling of a conjunction. That is no different from the same thing in a natal chart. For example, during the two years or so that Saturn takes to move through a sign, there will be times when it isn't quite in conjunction with an outer planet also passing through that sign. The two both (go) retrograde and do a little dance back and forth together. I think there is some of the same feeling during those gaps, but it isn't quite as intense an influence. A person with an exact or close conjunction will naturally feel the impact much more powerfully.
~
~ Audience: You would use an orb as wide as ten degrees?
~
~ Liz: Yes, particularly with aconjunction. There seems to be a lot of argument about orbs, and I can only tell you what I have learnt from my own experience. I'm inclined to give importance to wide aspects, but I would look quite carefully at which planets were involved. I would certainly use ten degrees for major aspects involving the Sun, Moon and Saturn. I also think it depends on where these planets are placed, so that if the Sun is, say, in the Midheaven, it will be very prominent in the chart, and then I would consider that it's sphere of influence is greater. I also suspect it depends on the person. A very loose conjunction or square will give the same characteristics as a tight one, but they are more diluted, and the individual has more flexibility with it. Also, if he's putting a lot of energy into working at that aspect, or developing it in his life, then it will become more obvious because it is becoming more conscious.
~ An example of this might be a person with a wide Sun-Neptune trine or conjunction who decides to study music. Although the looseness of the aspect means there isn't the same compulsive feeling, the fact that he's trying to develop himself along the lines of the aspect means that it will become more important in his life. I know that a good many astrologers like using narrow orbs of six to eight degrees, but that is simply how I feel about it.
~ The same problem of orbs arises when you're trying to interpret transits and progressions as well. Many people think of transits and progressions as operative only when they are exact. But I feel there is a period of build-up which goes on for quite a long time before the aspect is exact. You can smell it in the wind, so to speak, before it becomes apparent in your life. With a major progression such as that of Sun over a natal planet, I think there is a three or four year buil-up. It doesn't just suddenly arrive one morning out of nowhere. The psyche has been preparing for it for some time. I feel we are sometimes a little to tight and literal in the way we work with orbs. http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/011432.html

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posted March 17, 2012 04:08 PM              

quote:

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Aspects are an essential part of interpreting a birth chart because they describe the exact relationship between two planets -- a physical relationship that's specific down to the degree. An astrological chart is mapped out in a full circle of 360 degrees, and aspects occur when planets are zero degrees apart, thirty, sixty and so on. Soft aspects, such as sextiles and trines, bring positive, beneficial influences with them, while the hard aspects, such as conjunctions, squares, oppositions and quincunxes, are thought of as bringing intensity, drama and challenges. You might not notice the easy effects of a soft aspect, while the hard aspects can be either interesting or difficult to deal with -- or both. After all, without challenges and spikes of intensity, life would get pretty dull!

The orb of an aspect determines how far apart an aspect can be, in terms of degrees, and still have an influence that will affect your life and personality. For example, for two planets to be in opposition, they must be one hundred eighty degrees apart on a Zodiac chart. But with an orb of ten degrees, one planet can be up to ten degrees closer or farther than the exact opposition, and still be considered to be effective aspect, with all of the opposition's attendant influences and meanings. The orbs for the different aspects vary; some, such as the sextile and the quincunx, must be within just five degrees to still be considered a true aspect.


Kelli Fox CA NCGR IV, PMAFA, ISAR C.A.P., FAA

Kelli was first drawn to astrology during her childhood in Sydney, Australia. As early as eight years of age, she began recording birth dates and sun signs for anyone willing to share. Kelli's formal astrological studies began at the College of Humanistic Astrology. This led to her professional accreditation with multiple organizations including: CA NCGR IV (National Council for Geocosmic Research), PMAFA (Professional Member of the American Federation of Astrologers), ISAR C.A.P. (International Society for Astrological Research), and the FAA (Federation of Australian Astrologers).
In 1995 Kelli created astrology.com where she continued to live her passion until 2003. After taking a couple of years out to be with her family, she began work on new content and services including mobile phone apps, video horoscopes and forecasts.

Kelli was the first member of the Founders' Circle of Kepler College http://www.kepler.edu/ and is an emeritus member of its Board of Trustees. (Kepler College is the first college in the western hemisphere authorized to issue BA, AA and MA degrees in Astrological Studies.)
http://theastrologer.com/about-kelli-fox/

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posted March 17, 2012 04:15 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
I don't have a Sun-Pluto parallel.

Strangely, I have a Sun-Saturn parallel, even though aspect wise, they square each other.

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I think with declinations if there is no aspect natally and there is in parallels I find this adds more importance to them

when there is a square natally, like yours and then parallel to which acts like a conjunction, it woudl add bit more weight to the 'lack of rapport' aspect with father. Having an outer contacting an inner planet, espec sun and moon will seriously modify the sun and moon's expressions to more like that of the outer planet..

posted March 17, 2012 04:20 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
^ Your Mercury is similar to my Mars, which is in the 6th but close to the DSC. I consider it to be in the 7th, even though it probably still applies to the 6th, too.
It's like it's in both houses.
I think I relate more to Mars in the 7th because that's where my progressed Mars is now.

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I have pluto well aspected 28' conj 8th house cusp so it's 3' and I've had major struggles with my first husband over finances and maintenance for our two sons. In fact I had him in Court 4x one year to get an 'attachment of his earnings' He even did a runner with his second wife, so he wouldn't have to pay maintenance. But by his reputation, I found him sooner then the authorities. So again major struggles with men over finances....

on the plus side pluto's influences give a greater need for digging and delving into all 8th house matters, including intimate...

posted March 17, 2012 04:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SaggiMC:

when there is a square natally, like yours and then parallel to which acts like a conjunction, it woudl add bit more weight to the 'lack of rapport' aspect with father.

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Spot on.

Thanks for your comment.

And sorry to hear about your struggles with men financially!

posted March 17, 2012 04:39 PM              

We can list all the things astrologers say about orbs; hey Vedic astrology does not even use orbs at all, at least traditional Vedic doesn`t.
Magi astrology uses 3 degree orb, max. 4 degree orb for everything, no matter if natal or synastry.

As SaggiMC said, Robert Hand uses smaller orbs, even though this is not the Norm (btw who said the Norm is always the right thing? It is just a "convention" and hopefully one based on common sense and reasonable thinking).

I know that many astrologers use wide orbs.
But honestly, my approach to astrology is a simple one.
I have read a lot of astrology books, astrological articles, studied published interpretations of natal and synastry, did several ones myself.

So step 1 for me was: gathering information.

So I did that. For many many years, after I got into astrology over 20 years ago. The first 5-7 years I pretty much spent reading, reading, reading, eating up everything that there was.

Then I absorbed all these informations and reconstructed, what they said, why they said it, how they came to their conclusions, what thought principles were underlying it all.

So step 2 for me was: reconstructing the ideas that were presented to me

Somewhen during this time I started to see the "fabric", the interdependences, how it is all woven together, planets, signs, houses, rulerships, aspects.

During this time I also realized that there were very different opinions of astrologers on a lot of topics.

How to discern what "works"?
On some level it all seemed to work, or none of it, depending on the perspective.

So the step 3 for me was: Reasoning

It is quite understandable, that anything sometimes seem to work or not to work, cause any human being is subject to being subjective, seeing only through their eyes and glasses.

That is why I don`t take any reasoning seriously that starts with: "Because it works for me."
Maybe it does. Maybe one is deluding oneself over the true nature of a person or relationship, including oneself. (it ALWAYS feels real and true when you are in the middle of it).
But maybe what we think is due to a 12 degree sextile of Neptune and Pluto (I am deliberately exaggerating), really is the result of a contraparallel between Neptune and Pluto, or the ruler of 8th house in 12th house conjunct Neptune).

For me personally it is clear that i need a more objective, observeable approach to these things.

At this point I did not accept any idea presented, just because a professional astrologer said or wrote it.
I have to see the concept, the reason for why they think they are onto something.

If someone tells me (like Rob Hand), that sometimes wider orbed aspects seem to work because they might correlate with exact midpoint pictures, I can accept that. And I can reconstruct it. Especially in terms of events, as these are very objective (though our experience of them isn`t).

If someone tells me that this particular conjunction between Mars and Venus of 8 degree is valid, because there is ASC smack in the middle, with 4 degrees to each, I can accept that as well. It makes sense to me.

If someone tells me that aspects are phasal in nature, I can accept that, too.

But before I can accept anything from someone else, I need to know their reasons, not just pointing out so-called "authorities". That is why even posting a hundred of links will not do anything to convince me.

Another aspect to it is that I relate everything back to the underlying premise of astrology: "As above, so below".
Which means, that when we look up at the sky, what we see, reflects what is happening on earth.

For deciding the question on orbs for myself personally, I needed to find an aspect that is pretty obvious.
An example of such an aspect would be a fullmoon.

A fullmoon is considered full for the day the exact opposition takes place. 12 hours before, 12 hours after (though it is not as scientific as I would like it to be).
These time span correlates to an orb of 6 degrees.

That is why the 6 degree orb is for me a "demarcation".

Now I am aware that aspects might work with orbs greater than this.
But the thing is I don´t know if they do. And so far I haven`t seen a convincing argument to this, except for the ones I mentioned above.

In astrological interpretation I also like to play it "safe", and since the tighter the orb, the more intensely the aspects are usually felt (though the natal constellation of the planets have to be taken into account as Dawn wrote in the article I quoted), and so I am using those who will be very much in the centre and more strongly felt.

Bottom line, my approach to astrology is:
reading, reconstructing, reasoning, recalibrating

(and relying on my own mind; if I can`t even convince myself of something, how could I present it to others in a convincing way?)

posted March 17, 2012 04:56 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
I love that site, Dawn is a great astrologer.

Orbs are always tricky, especially in synastry/composite.

But even in the natal, it's not always that clear.

For example, in my own chart, my Pluto is 9° away from my Sun, but I don't feel it. I don't count it as a conjunction even though technically speaking, it could still be operating since it's an applying aspect.

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have you checked your parallels? the interesting ones are where there is no aspect natally, it's like adding new ones.
with all the aquarius/uranus in my chart, you might think I would be a rebel, and others around recently would probably agree, but really I am not. It wasn't until I reserached parallels that brought the final answers where Saturn is contra parallels uranus. They don't call it the 'dead hand of saturn for nothing'

posted March 17, 2012 05:01 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
Spot on.

Thanks for your comment.

And sorry to hear about your struggles with men financially!

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posted March 17, 2012 05:25 PM              

Nice descriptions and analogies. My take is simply mainstream views and obviouslly what I was taught via a Prof astrologer of long standing in UK..

We have to be careful when we discuss simple things like a 'lack of elements in fire' I have today seen a member say with conviction a chart has a deficiency in fire.. when I saw the chart, it had planets in fire house to compensate... I then made differng comments obviously and this is down to years of experience and knowledge, like yourself.

I digress, orbs are subjective, but if there is an unaspected or singleton or low elemental balance I tend to look deeper to see if there is a connection in parallels and midpoints..

In Ami case sun/moon (for me) are conjunct AND to reaffirm this she has a Parallel to, which brings the conjunction closer and stronger.

I have an out of sign conjuction 10' orb Aries/taurus with sun/moon. I don't feel any conflict with sun/ego/pride/values/ beliefs and moon emotional intuitive responses

posted March 18, 2012 11:41 AM              

you can visually see by looking at the aspect grid with is *most aspected* it's no biggie.

this thread is about ORBS used in natal and/or syn