posted January 11, 2013 03:51 PM            

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Originally posted by DeathIsanIllusion:
3E.2D.1B.4A.5C

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And we have a winner.

posted January 11, 2013 03:54 PM            

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Originally posted by RunAroundScreaming:
Oh ok. I will explain what I see as far as love stelliums.

A. Sun conjunct venus. Mercury semisextile venus

B. Sun conjunct mercury. Mercury is really widely conjunct venus, but I am still trying to figure out what is the furthest out you can feel a love stellium because peachebeiglebue and I have discussed it over facebook and we can both feel our wide love stelliums.

C. Sun says it is "opp house" or well, you have it written in german in yours. That means the sun could be interpreted in the opposite position of the chart as well. peachbeigeblue and I had experimented with this, and seem to have found that it does make love stelliums. If sun is in the opposite point of the chart then it would be conjunct mercury and neptune, and semisextile venus (i know this because mercury is semisextile venus). That would be a very nice configuration (well, u know, minus uranus being square it)

D. this one has sun conjunct venus and mercury

E. this one doesnt seem to have a love stellium bc mercury is too far away. but it still has sun conjunct venus, which is similar. so it was still confusing.

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posted January 11, 2013 08:50 PM            

E was the one whose description really stood out from the rest. Firstly, I looked carefully at the charts. What struck me as being red flags was the 6th house with personal planets like Venus, Sun, Mercury! The 6th house in a composite is like that great pit in which whatever falls into it cannot be rescued; it's gone forever! It's not good to have personal planets in there. Vertex conjuncts the 7th from the 6th. Also add some afflictions. I just knew Neptune had to negatively aspect them. And there you have it in Sagittarius tightly squaring the Sun which also represents the male in a composite. Neptune in a composite is the big, bad wolf. It is the main ingredient for disaster. Saturn conjunct Mars trine Neptune does nothing but pump fuel to that square. It's a receipt for long-lasting emotional negativity, deception, illusions; aggressive behaviour slowly revealing its true nature, and when it reaches its 'grand finale' all hell breaks loose. The afflicted Sun which pointed to the ex's deranged behaviour is the protagonist. Moon opposite Saturn and Mars made your friend's emotional security messed up!! Again, another negative aspect enforced by (a) good aspect(s) from (a) malefic(s)! See how that Scorpio Pluto in the 8th house trines the Moon and sextiles Venus!? It's easy to observe the intensity of the destruction of her feelings.

D was easy, too. The ASC is at 29 degrees Leo. Libra stellium with Sun conjunct Pluto in the 2nd!! Venus conjunct Mars and Mercury in Libra in the 3rd!!!! Jupiter in Aries in the 9th opposites the planets in the 3rd!!! Moon in Aquarius makes a bunch of 'nice' trines!!! Yikes!! This is where the excess of materialism comes from, the wish to accumulate anything which will help them climb the social ladder and stay on top, get all powerful and pride themselves on that as long as they can. They had a lot of boisterous plans regarding the ways in which they were going to fulfill their 'higher purpose' and imagined themselves as the crčme de la crčme of the upper class. This is what they called 'love'. And all this to impress the rest, become popular, feel secure according to the amount of glamour shown off; glitziness just for the sake of it; being in a relationship just for the actual state of being in a relationship with a certain someone who happens to have THAT type of material status. Moon is in the 6th house. That's why your friend felt like being in a subordinate position to him. Saturn in Leo in the 12th tightly squares Pluto in Scorpio in the 3rd. Were they seen as snobs? Posh talk much?

Afterwards, you pointed that 4 was A. If 1 wasn't C, then I knew that 5 had to be B or C.

I liked the description of relationship no. 5. The C chart has an eye-catching Sun conjunct Moon trine Saturn - although with that opposition of Mercury conjunct Neptune, I'd like to see the way in which they'll evolve in the future; I smell something fishy going on. The orbs here are wider, but who knows?! My experience with Neptune in a composite is a dreadful one. Once bitten, twice shy. That's why I draw back in suspicion whenever I see it making hard aspects to personal planets. But I have yet to study thousands and thousands of charts to be 100% sure there are no exceptions to this rule. Now, back to my judgement: I have a Pluto conjunct North Node and Vertex in the 6th with someone in the Davison chart and I can resonate with the description of that relationship. Their Pluto is in a wider conjunction, but still noticeable! Malefics are not bad in the 6th. Dunno really 'bout Mars for sure, as it is a personal planet, and it's also representative for a pair's sex life.

posted January 12, 2013 07:57 AM            

thank you very much for your thorough explanation.

"What struck me as being red flags was the 6th house with personal planets like Venus, Sun, Mercury! The 6th house in a composite is like that great pit in which whatever falls into it cannot be rescued"

As a preface I must say that I donīt think any house in a composite ever spells doom per se.
However, the 6th house is also the house that I dread to see emphasized in a composite chart. It might have to do with my own thoughts about relationships though. Some people might actually seek that energy out. However to me it represents an unduly emphasis on a relationship that is based on "duty" and oftne comes with a hierarchy, which in my understanding is nothing good in a relationship, as for me personally I want equality.

As a matter of fact I even prefer the 12th house in a composite to the 6th one, though it is quite a difficult one as well (not really the house of "undoing", but bringing a relationship bubbling with many psychological feelings underneath, and triggering deep psychological processes in people, thta may have been prviously unnoticed, and who can really handle all that psychological stuff on a daily basis? Also, in the 8th house we are usually at least aware of what complexes are haunting us, in the 12th house they may jump at us from out of nowwhere as it seems. A lot of surrendering needed there and a great openness to let the relationship run its cause as it wants to, instead of trying to force it into a conventional pattern, which would be the end of it).

But I disgress.

" Also add some afflictions. I just knew Neptune had to negatively aspect them."
Okay, again, I must give the preface that I don`t think Neptune afflictions predict doom per se. But you really have to be a very conscious saint to tackle these in everyday life I guess.
The problem I see here is that with Neptune squares (oppositions are strange beasts in composites as they really are also conjunctions, just highlighting the far midpoint instead of the near one), or actualy with Neptune in general that it all feels so magical and ideal in the beginning, and you have to watch very closely if that is really the soulmate relationship you feel it is or just a grand delusion (I have seen both possibilities with Neptune aspects), with the challenging Neptune aspects we are often more prone to delusions though and when it fizzles out we are left wondering what the hell went wrong with uor ideal relationship.

It also seems to be especially difficult if a personal planet in the 6th house has a challenging aspect to Neptune.

Examples:

Frank Sinatra - Ava Gardner:
Moon in Pisces in 6th house conjunct DESC, and quinkunx Neptune in Leo in 11th house

my friend and her Psycho-ex:
Sun in Virgo in 6th house square Neptune in 9th, as you pointed out

LAurence Olivier - Vivien Leigh:
Moon on 29 Scorpio in 6th house EXACTLY conjunct DESC though

Mars in Libra in 6th exactly square Neptune in 3rd
(she was having a mental illness; I think she was bipolar or something lek that)

Crownprince Rudolf and Marie Vetsera (he first shot her and then himself at Mayerling)

Venus in Cancer in 6th;
Neptune in Aries in 3rd

The orb is very generous for my taste, but maybe it is still valid (9°24);

Interestingly at the time of the murder the progressed composite had pr Sun and pr Mercury in 11th (6th in natal comp) square pr Neptune in 8th, and pr ASC was quinkunx pr Neptune exact

" the Sun which also represents the male in a composite"
I don`t subscribe to that theory wholeheartedly or soley.

Generally I think the composite represents the shared energies between the couple. So Moon for example will be the shared emotional bond, or the nature of the emotional connection and so on.

However, having said that, people are often prone to projection, and it might very well be that one partner identifies more with one energy than the other.
Maybe it is right that Sun and Mars are more felt or expressed by men and Moon and Venus by women. I am not totally sure about that though. Or let`s put it this way, it might not be true in all cases, though it can be perfectly fitting in some.

What I would check definitely is the comparision with the natal chart. My friend has an Aries Moon in 11th house; she might have resonated more strongly with the Aquarius Moon in the composite than her ex, who didn`t have any Uranian signature.

Interestingly the composite Venus was conjunct his natal Sun tightly.

"Saturn conjunct Mars trine Neptune does nothing but pump fuel to that square."
I donīt view Neptune trines as recipes for desaster per se; but here we are dealing with an already afflicted Neptune (And him natally having some sort of Neptunian affliction with his 12th house NEptune (ruling the 3rd) squaring DESC-ruler Mercury in 8th house, whichw as conjunct my friend`s Sun, so she kind of triggered that in him I guess).

I donīt really like Mars-Saturn-conjunctions. Well, my parents have one as well, and they are dealing well with it. But I donīt know.
Here in this case the composite Mars falls onto his natal Saturn, intercepted ruler of his 1st house and Cappy-Moon, and the Mars/Satrn-conjunction is oposite the ruler of the 5th house of the composite - I guess this might be a reflection how the sexual side of their relationship was clearly lacking; the attraction was there - ASC-ruler in Leo in 5th house, but it was having "brakes on" through the conjunction to Saturn and his own natal Saturn; composite Mars was closer to his Saturn, 4 degrees, than her Saturn, 6 degrees)

" See how that Scorpio Pluto in the 8th house trines the Moon and sextiles Venus!? It's easy to observe the intensity of the destruction of her feelings."
I think this simply points to the emotional intensity between the two of them; and in a different composite it might have been a very beautiful aspect, but with the mentioned afflictions, it just was the "trap" to trap people in a manipulative, destructive, obsessive and abusive relationship.
Something had to be the "hook" for them to get lured in.

"was easy, too. The ASC is at 29 degrees Leo. Libra stellium with Sun conjunct Pluto in the 2nd!! Venus conjunct Mars and Mercury in Libra in the 3rd!!!!"
What I never understood was though, how that relationship was never an intense one. With Venus and Mars and Sun and Pluto I would have expected a bit more intensity and passion, even if it was going down the drain in the end.

"Were they seen as snobs? Posh talk much?"
He was, yes. He came from a family of snobs. And he was also pretty conventional and cowardish.
However the relationship did give something to my friend as well. At least she thought so. She was in it for the emotional security she felt, as she never felt emotionally secure in her family. She got into the relationship when she was quite young.
On a superficial level or a pragmatic level he was always there for her and reliable. This might have glossed over the fact that he was emotionally inaccessible.

Natally they both have Venus-Mars-conjunction in Libra; his is conjunct Sun and Uranus; hers is conjunct Mercury and Pluto.
That difference between uranus and Pluto was quite apparent.

"The C chart has an eye-catching Sun conjunct Moon trine Saturn - although with that opposition of Mercury conjunct Neptune, I'd like to see the way in which they'll evolve in the future;"
They have dealt with it quite well so far. But they make a point in communicating VERY honestly and clearly which each other and always talk things out, as they feel it is necessary to avoid any kind of miscommunication that might erode an otherwise strong emotional bond. It is a good idea I think.
Well, the other thing that happened is that my friend developed her dormant psychic gifts and spiritual inclination, since the relationship started. It is not that he is so spiritual, it is nothing deliberate, it just happened simultaneously.

" My experience with Neptune in a composite is a dreadful one. Once bitten, twice shy."
Of course our experiences shape our interpretations.

However as far as I can see, Neptune is not always that horrible, but we should not understimate its power to erode things either!

I mean Paul Newman and his wife seemed to have been doing a good job, being married for 50 years, and all that with Neptune opposite Sun and Moon in composite.

(but then again, it is an opposition, not a square)

my parents have Moon in 12th house square Neptune, and are still going strong.

William hearst and Marion DAvies, having been together for over 25 years until his death, had Neptune opposite Moon.

posted January 12, 2013 06:09 PM            

Hi Astro keen, thank you very much! I'm indeed thinking about something at this moment but it will take me some time to develop what I have in mind. For now, it would be easier to start a new thread about everyone's personal observations about Composite charts.

Hi Ceridwen,

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As a preface I must say that I donīt think any house in a composite ever spells doom per se.
However, the 6th house is also the house that I dread to see emphasized in a composite chart. It might have to do with my own thoughts about relationships though. Some people might actually seek that energy out. However to me it represents an unduly emphasis on a relationship that is based on "duty" and oftne comes with a hierarchy, which in my understanding is nothing good in a relationship, as for me personally I want equality."

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Yes, I know that because I was able to see at first hand what it can do. The trouble is that although there might be people who are actually looking for a master/servant relationship, there will always be something lurking around the corner which will be the final doom of those people. The charts I saw from my experience had negative aspects to planets in the 6th, so once again, there you have the fine line between black and white. As I've said before, I have yet to research a giant amount of Composites.

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As a matter of fact I even prefer the 12th house in a composite to the 6th one, though it is quite a difficult one as well (not really the house of "undoing", but bringing a relationship bubbling with many psychological feelings underneath, and triggering deep psychological processes in people, thta may have been prviously unnoticed, and who can really handle all that psychological stuff on a daily basis? Also, in the 8th house we are usually at least aware of what complexes are haunting us, in the 12th house they may jump at us from out of nowwhere as it seems. A lot of surrendering needed there and a great openness to let the relationship run its cause as it wants to, instead of trying to force it into a conventional pattern, which would be the end of it).

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Yes! Yes! If the parties implied had their lives troubled by lots and lots of negative experiences that resulted in all 12th house monsters plaguing their lives daily and feeding off their energy and aura, then good aspects to planets in the 12th will simply renew and positively transform that part of their psyche which had never been dealt with and which was also the source of infestation from negative spirits; especially when there's at least a conjunction from the 12th to the ASC. However, if afflicted,... "Houston, we have a problem!".

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Okay, again, I must give the preface that I don`t think Neptune afflictions predict doom per se. But you really have to be a very conscious saint to tackle these in everyday life I guess.
The problem I see here is that with Neptune squares (oppositions are strange beasts in composites as they really are also conjunctions, just highlighting the far midpoint instead of the near one), or actualy with Neptune in general that it all feels so magical and ideal in the beginning, and you have to watch very closely if that is really the soulmate relationship you feel it is or just a grand delusion (I have seen both possibilities with Neptune aspects), with the challenging Neptune aspects we are often more prone to delusions though and when it fizzles out we are left wondering what the hell went wrong with uor ideal relationship.

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That's exactly the trouble with Neptune, a complicated and difficult to fathom planet which raises up questions even in Synastry itself. Thank you for bringing up the delicate, but intriguing situation of Neptune squares vs Neptune oppositions in composites. From what we have now, squares are definitely red flags. But, as you've said, oppositions behave like a bunch of imps and the near vs far midpoint is the Gordian Knot. Squares both in Composite and Synastric charts are harbingers of doom, whereas oppositions get as difficult to grasp as they can.

BUT, what... about... Got Gemini??'s Composite with his wife? Neptune doesn't receive any bad aspects; surprisingly, it is part of a Yod with Neptune focal!!

What I'm asking myself and the rest rhetorically: When exactly do Neptune squares in Synastry show lies, deceptions, betrayal, and backstabbing? Who deceives whom? The Neptune or the planet person? What other aspects in Synastry annihilate the possibilities of lies? How do the Composite and Davison charts influence the final verdict of an analysis? How do personal Neptune aspects influence the rest of the aspects in the Composite and Davison? Shall we take into consideration the Neptune Persona charts also? Will whatever data collected stand up the test of time or be influenced by Transits, Progressions, and Solar Arcs? When do lies become good in nature and serve a real, noble purpose? All this demands indeed a lot of time, will and patience in order for a final analysis report to reach its final conclusions.

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Generally I think the composite represents the shared energies between the couple. So Moon for example will be the shared emotional bond, or the nature of the emotional connection and so on.

However, having said that, people are often prone to projection, and it might very well be that one partner identifies more with one energy than the other.
Maybe it is right that Sun and Mars are more felt or expressed by men and Moon and Venus by women. I am not totally sure about that though. Or let`s put it this way, it might not be true in all cases, though it can be perfectly fitting in some.

What I would check definitely is the comparision with the natal chart. My friend has an Aries Moon in 11th house; she might have resonated more strongly with the Aquarius Moon in the composite than her ex, who didn`t have any Uranian signature.

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Exactly, there's an entire gamut of possibilities. We should always take all possibilities into consideration and never neglect any. We should never forget that there aren't only heterosexual lovers in this world, therefore the planets' ascribed gender may or may not work. And if this is valid for Composites, then it has to be valid for first meeting and wedding charts. Saturn may also be representative for the older significant other, and Mercury for the younger.

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I donīt view Neptune trines as recipes for desaster per se; but here we are dealing with an already afflicted Neptune (And him natally having some sort of Neptunian affliction with his 12th house NEptune (ruling the 3rd) squaring DESC-ruler Mercury in 8th house, whichw as conjunct my friend`s Sun, so she kind of triggered that in him I guess).

I donīt really like Mars-Saturn-conjunctions. Well, my parents have one as well, and they are dealing well with it. But I donīt know.
Here in this case the composite Mars falls onto his natal Saturn, intercepted ruler of his 1st house and Cappy-Moon, and the Mars/Satrn-conjunction is oposite the ruler of the 5th house of the composite - I guess this might be a reflection how the sexual side of their relationship was clearly lacking; the attraction was there - ASC-ruler in Leo in 5th house, but it was having "brakes on" through the conjunction to Saturn and his own natal Saturn; composite Mars was closer to his Saturn, 4 degrees, than her Saturn, 6 degrees)

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Yeah, trines are very good! It depends though on whose side they're on, what kind of energy are they helping to intensify, good or bad. But I have a hunch they sometimes play the double agent role. So, even when they're part of a negative aspect, they might still emanate all the characteristics associated with that type of trine while performing at the same time its real function, that of aiding something which is already afflicted spread its unwanted effects.

I'm glad to see your friend from chart C developed her dormant psychic gifts and spiritual inclinations! This is one of the most beautiful things a relationship can give you!! I have a Neptune opposite Jupiter, Neptune trine Mars, NN, sextile Pluto & Saturn with someone in a Composite, and one of the most wonderful experiences you can feel when connected with someone on a spiritual level is truly awakening at its innermost core. And yes!! A true relationship's must is an omnipresent crystal clear communication!!

The time has astrologically come for Neptune to dissipate its fog. Or has it? Isn't Neptune meant to hide its true nature over and over again and reflect what others want to see as a reflection? :P I personally hope not.

posted January 12, 2013 10:47 PM            

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Hi RAS, I think you're doing just fine. That Love Stellium theory you've been working is amazing and looks pioneering. I was going to ask you too about a Composite where besides the LS & Venus trine Pluto there's a Moon quindecile Venus. Don't give up, it's normal to be always searching for the perfectly formulated theories. Astrology is unquestionably profound and complex.

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Thank you very much. Means a lot. Now I feel better.

Yes, it's interesting that you asked about moon quindecile venus. Did you happen to notice the moon-venus, venus-pluto pattern i've noticed from my "ideal compatibility" ? I think that's why you ask, right? Correct me if i'm wrong tho!
I think it should just be interpreted like the square. I've noticed moon in negative aspect to venus a lot more than soft aspects in the composite. It makes the feeling more compulsive, so it makes sense that it would show up more.

posted January 13, 2013 05:24 AM            

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Originally posted by RunAroundScreaming:
Thank you very much. Means a lot. Now I feel better.

Yes, it's interesting that you asked about moon quindecile venus. Did you happen to notice the moon-venus, venus-pluto pattern i've noticed from my "ideal compatibility" ? I think that's why you ask, right? Correct me if i'm wrong tho!
I think it should just be interpreted like the square. I've noticed moon in negative aspect to venus a lot more than soft aspects in the composite. It makes the feeling more compulsive, so it makes sense that it would show up more.

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I agree with Deathisanillusion. You are doing just fine.
Just think of what a long way you`ve come in a short period of time. In the beginning you were simply looking out for the love stellium, but by now you`ve a good grasp on the patterns instead of single aspects. Which imo is the foundation of good astrology. It`s as complex as humans are.

I also agree with the dynamic aspects of Moon and Venus (esp. conjunction, opposition and square, basically the 4th harmonic or even 8th harmonic aspects, including semisquare and sesisquare); they are both such soft energies themselves they need some "kickstart" and the dynamic aspects do just that.

It is different than having a square to Saturn or Neptune, Uranus or even Pluto.

posted January 19, 2013 06:26 AM            

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Originally posted by Taurus80:
Ceridwen great thread ..what orbs do you use with composites? I know astro.com uses very wide orbs

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I am torn in the issue of orbs. I prefer 3-4 degree or 5 degree max.
Then on the other hand I have this Moon-Venus-conjunction in a composite at 6 degrees, and a Mars-Pluto-conjunction at 8 degrees.
Usually I would deem that too wide, but I donīt know. It would make sense.
In this case though the midpoint of the Mars-Pluto-conjunction falls onto the composite NN, while the midpoint of Moon-Venus is squaring the nodal axis (thus representing a "skipped step").

posted January 19, 2013 06:49 AM            

"From what we have now, squares are definitely red flags"
Yes, I think so. And they definitely are in synastry as well.
I have my Neptune exactly conjunct a guy`s Mercury and exactly squaring his Mars-Jupiter-conjunction in Virgo. I guess I sometimes must be confusing the heck out of him.

" bunch of imps and the near vs far midpoint is the Gordian Knot."
Yes, though it certainly would raise questions about houses and angles in the composite as well. Can of worms!
Maybe in some sense instead of planets or housepositions, it is more a combination of "axises"?
But so far the near midpoint seems to work fine for most astrologer.

" Squares both in Composite and Synastric charts are harbingers of doom"
I disagree with the thought that any aspect really can spell "doom"; the squares raise issues and force your attention through tension, and you can`t afford to ignore them, you HAVE to deal with them, but there is a way to deal with them, it just gets more difficult. It is like the stocks are raised, and if you fail to deal with the issues in an adaequate way, the consequences will be harsh.
Unfortunately though with Neptune-squares you might not even really be aware of what the issue is exactly, which makes it even more difficult to confront it and resolve it, and after a time everything is going down the drain and simply dissolve.

"We should never forget that there aren't only heterosexual lovers in this world, therefore the planets' ascribed gender may or may not work."
Exactly.

However, Venus will always be Venus, and Mars will always be Mars, no matter what gender. Venus will always show themes of attraction, appreciation, relating etc, and Mars will always relate to assertion, energy, and so on.

There is a German or Austrian astrologer, Mona Riegger, who claims that in a Davison the older person is signified by the 1st house and the younger by the 7th house (like in horary).
At least in terms of composites I can`t back up this though.
Others say that Sun and Mars (or Saturn and Mars) represent the male, Moon and Venus the female.
Maybe yes, maybe no.
I prefer to treat the composite as a combination of energies between two people, and instead of assigning the planets to the genders, I see them more as representative of a certain energy; Moon will always describe the emotional athmosphere between a couple. Is this solely based on the woman in the chart?
No, I do not think so, to be honest.
What I do think however is that maybe people who natally resonate with a composite planet more, will express this side more visibly. But still it is relevant for the relationship as a whole.

I mean transferring this to the natal chart, I am very aware that in fact I DO express my Sun and Mars, and do not hand them over to the men in my environment to live them for me, so I donīt have to.
They are part of me (though I admit that maybe men in my environment may reflect something of that Sun and Mars-energy back to me, like a mirror. But it is still MY energy, that needs or is integrated).

"It depends though on whose side they're on, what kind of energy are they helping to intensify, good or bad."
Yes. Trines simply describe a smooth flow of energy, that is not being disrupted.