posted October 16, 2014 04:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by maira:
But where are his struggles with sexuality (in the Gemini rising chart, he has Mars in the 12th).

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I do not know that he struggled with sexuality in the way it was depicted salaciously in the press. However, you can clearly see Neptune in the 8th house of the 16* Pisces chart, adding the 'nebulous' factor there. In addition Mars is quincunx Saturn.

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Where is the authoritarian father?

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That potential is the most prominent feature of this 16* Pisces chart:
- Saturn at MC square Asc & Moon in Pisces and quincunx Mars.
- Sun conjunct Pluto is an aspect that indicates the potential for the father to be overbearing, regardless of where it is in the chart, particularly when added to the above configuration.

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Where is the Howard Hughes figure, the oddest wounded soul in the world? (Chiron in Aqua on the MC)

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The 16* Pisces Lunar Asc takes care of this. The Moon in Pisces person is one who is too easily subject to external influences and martyr syndromes, 'poor me', or attracting those who will victimize them due to innocence or naivete about others' motives.

However, note Chiron opposite Venus. Chiron [8S30] is also parallel N.Node [8S58]

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Where is the world's greatest performer, who only felt at ease on stage? (this is textbook, Moon in the 10th, and we, the general public, have witnessed all his trials and tribulations, his extreme sensitivity.)

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The 16* Pisces chart has Cancer over the 5th cusp = significator, MOON. Place that right at the Asc and you have not only a potential for 5th house creative activities becoming the focus, but becoming the focus of the Personal Identity.

Extreme Sensitivity is seen, again, in Moon in Pisces at the Asc.

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And I could go on, but I'm running out of time.
Kannon, please don't take this the wrong way, I am a huge admirer of your work! But I also am one of MJ's biggest fans, so I couldn't refrain from speaking my mind

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Maira,

I'll be honest, I don't 'like' this chart for him as much as I want to. His facial outline and other features aren't as typical for a lunar/Pisces rising type as I'd like for clarity's sake.

I've had similar questions /doubts. They are perfectly good questions.

Bottom line is, there is no documentation to support a Gemini rising chart for him. The only time quotes by family members with access to documents say, "7:33 PM" and "12:09 PM." I tested the (noon) Scorpio rising chart. It also failed.

In determining a valid chart I have to use the same standards for each and every chart, even if it validates a chart that I don't like as much as I want to.

Chart Validation Standards:
https://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/chart-validation-standards/

A loaded 6th house + Saturn at MC indicates a work ethic to keep at it no matter what, to pursue excellence. He took his innate talent and pressed hard to develop it. He could have given in in despair from his father's abuse, but he didn't.

Its also important to see the entire 1st house situation of the 16* Pisces chart: including the whole sign of Aries included in the 1st (interception). This adds Aries to the primary Pisces/Lunar personality.

This interception of houses, of course, extends to the 7th. With this 1st/7th interception what is emphasized is Relating. With Moon at the Asc and with his talent allowing him the opportunity, it doesn't surprise me that he made statements about feeling most at home performing on stage.

The 1st/7th INT involving Pisces and/or Aquarius is pretty common for such solo performers and is actually a subjective validating factor in itself.

There are more validating factors that I've not listed. I don't want to get too technical. I hope these have answered your questions or at least given you some food for thought.

posted October 16, 2014 10:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by maira:
But where are his struggles with sexuality (in the Gemini rising chart, he has Mars in the 12th).
Where is the authoritarian father? (Sun conjunct Pluto in the 4th in the Gem chart)
Where is the Howard Hughes figure, the oddest wounded soul in the world? (Chiron in Aqua on the MC)
Where is the world's greatest performer, who only felt at ease on stage? (this is textbook, Moon in the 10th, and we, the general public, have witnessed all his trials and tribulations, his extreme sensitivity.)

"When I get on stage, I don't know what happens. It feels so good, it's like the safest place in the world for me.

I'm totally at home on the stage. That's where I live. That's where I was born. That's where I'm safe."

And I could go on, but I'm running out of time.
Kannon, please don't take this the wrong way, I am a huge admirer of your work! But I also am one of MJ's biggest fans, so I couldn't refrain from speaking my mind

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posted October 17, 2014 09:02 AM            

MJ's voice: Pisces moon isn't enough to make a person speak that softly. Nor is Pisces ASC. But if you combine the moon and ASC in Pisces...yes, I would imagine it sounding that way.

'Can't find any other celebrities with this combo for comparison. And it might not be worth mentioning, but my moon is at 18 Pisces, and I can identify with some of the impulse that causes him to retreat into a whisper...but I don't usually talk that quietly. Maybe if my moon was on the ASC I would.

quote:

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Originally posted by maira:
"When I get on stage, I don't know what happens. It feels so good, it's like the safest place in the world for me.

I'm totally at home on the stage. That's where I live. That's where I was born. That's where I'm safe."

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^^ This is what I would expect to hear from someone with moon conjunct ASC.

posted October 17, 2014 09:29 AM            

Example, beginning @ 00:50

^^ 3H Pisces moon

posted October 17, 2014 05:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
[b]Maira,

I'll be honest, I don't 'like' this chart for him as much as I want to. His facial outline and other features aren't as typical for a lunar/Pisces rising type as I'd like for clarity's sake.

I've had similar questions /doubts. They are perfectly good questions.

Bottom line is, there is no documentation to support a Gemini rising chart for him. The only time quotes by family members with access to documents say, "7:33 PM" and "12:09 PM." I tested the (noon) Scorpio rising chart. It also failed.

There are more validating factors that I've not listed. I don't want to get too technical. I hope these have answered your questions or at least given you some food for thought.

[/B]

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You, sir, have made my day! Thank you! I believe that the world would be a better place if there were more people like you, and I mean that with all my heart

And thank you for the detailed explanation, I am fairly good with natals and synastries, average with transits and - you guessed correctly - illiterate with rectifications. Being a triple Aries has its perks, but patience and methodicalness are not it. It's a Virgo thing, right?

posted October 17, 2014 05:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Throwing in my $.02

MJ's voice: Pisces moon isn't enough to make a person speak that softly. Nor is Pisces ASC. But if you combine the moon and ASC in Pisces...yes, I would imagine it sounding that way.

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Hi Faith! Yes, you are right, but - because there is a but - Lisa Marie Presley and other friends stated he didn't speak in that way when he was in private. It was a gimmick that he invented (along the other 500 of them) and it was what we, the public, saw (10th). You can hear his real voice on Invincible, I think that Unbreakable is the song.
I can search for the exact source of this info, but not right now since I'm running late once again

posted October 17, 2014 06:57 PM            

No, its not necessarily easy. Some are better than others at recognizing Asc signs. I've been better at recognizing signs in the past, but like most people would still get plenty wrong in my guesses.

As I got deeper into it, I got into full-on chart rectification. I never want to nail a person down to a particular rising sign just by looking at them.

I can narrow down the most likely Asc signs, starting broadly first then getting more specific as I narrow it down. You really need to see the inside as well as the outside of a person.

In short, guessing games are fun, but they won't consistently identify Asc signs correctly.

In order to get people's Asc signs correct consistently (and thus arrive at correct charts) *we have to switch the direction our methods are aimed*.

What I mean is this. Normally we have a stereotype in mind of what a particular rising/sign 'should' look like, act like, etc. There's a lot of truth and some legitimate patterns in those notions.

What works best instead and has allowed me to become an expert rectifier is to study the person in-depth. Observe them with rapt attention. Its best to see them in motion, in person. On video is next best. Learn their full biography -- or as much as possible.

Be certain that their astrological specifics, specifically their Asc figure (sign, aspects) WILL show in multiple characteristics and IS observable -- even if it does not conform to our expectations. A rising sign is a broad, 30-degree span in which a lot can happen.

Eventually these expressions, actions, physical qualities will all come together to make more personalities' Asc figures/signs clearer. But a significant percentage of people do not portray the stereotype of their Asc sign.

So rather than holding expectations of stereotyped descriptions to which the person must conform to qualify for a particular sign, it works best to learn the signs really, really well, then passively observe the person with no presumptions until you are certain of the answer.

My wife is such an example. Her birth time suggests late Scorpio rising. That shouldn't be too surprising since I have planets in late Taurus that would be near her DC/7th cusp. But she has Jupiter (12 Aqua) parallel and in wide square to her Asc (18*46') in Scorpio. She also has Moon at MC squaring her Asc. Her face does not have the typical squarish/rectangular fixed outline of a Scorpio riser. Its narrower, more rounded, fitting the Jupiter/Moon influence. She is also not secretive. However, a great keyword for her personality is "jovial." Jupiter. She's a 'big' girl who laughs loud and often and sees the brighter, funnier side of almost anything. (Sun in Gemini helps).

So while sometimes we can nail a person's correct rising sign, very often planets complicate and alter very much their actual true Asc picture.

Further example:

Someone who is a known, verified Leo riser. Let's say they have a slender body and are generally quiet. This doesn't seem so "Leo." Again, the Leonine qualities WILL come through in some way, even if they don't at first 'look' the stereotype.

So I look for what else I can see. Ah, here we have a young women whose hips are a bit narrow, shoulders squared off indicating the possibility of a fixed sign on the Leo/Aqua axis. She wears rock t-shirts a lot, seems energetic even if quiet. And I notice that her back has a bit of a sway-backed look, bending in mostly mid-back.

That picture is Leo enough for me to work with. Its a combination of many personality and physical qualities that you can collect over time -- using only verified, certain examples. That's what my Rising Signs page is composed of and is the basis for my work.

posted October 17, 2014 07:01 PM            

Aries Asc: Their natural stance reminds me of a boxer's, lean forward and look like they're ready to strike. Their hair often stands up- it has character, just like them (lol)

Taurus Asc: Thick lips, thickly lidded eyes. 'Juicy'. Have a slow and deliberate walk and voice.

Gemini Asc: Tend to have long fingers and toes. Lean-looking. Like to wear things they can play around with in their hands. Also tend to speak rapid-fire.

Cancer Asc: The eyes often have white space underneath. Expressive faces, and kinda soft looking. Usually introverted, and speak slowly

Leo Asc: Hair is noticeable feature, whether it's a rainbow hawk, bright blonde, or completely gone. Walk with a kind of 'swagger', emphasized by broad shoulders. Also have big smiles lol.

Virgo Asc: Very noticeable eyes imo. Very big as if they're analyzing everything in their sight. A lot of them don't like to wear very much make-up and also tend to be very picky regarding outfits. Can blend into a crowd easily.

Libra Asc: Smooth skin + dimples! Very chill and usually super approachable. Even if they are not beauty kings/queens, there is something about their appearance that is rather pleasing/harmonious.

Scorpio Asc: Usually very determined stance, their walk has a purpose to it which garners them a lot of attention.

Sagittarius Asc: Have a 'loud' sounding laugh/voice. Laugh at themselves often. Their smiles take up like, half their face (lol). Can be a bit clumsy. Even if they're short, they usually have very long and lean legs.

Capricorn Asc: Bring a 'let's-get-down-to-business' vibe. Serious looking, but a smile brightens their whole face up.

Aquarius Asc: Looks kinda like Libra in that their features are proportional but their foreheads tend to be larger. A bit more of an alien feeling. They like to stand out. Weird looks good on them. I had a friend with Aqua Asc aspecting Uranus who shaved his head completely, and he really liked it. He actually looked better with it imo, lol.

Pisces Asc: Watery, big eyes that seem like they're on another planet. If they want to, they can blend completely into the background.

posted October 17, 2014 08:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by maira:
Marandana, I apologize for hijacking the thread, and promise to be back with some on topic info

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posted October 17, 2014 11:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by maira:
Hi Faith! Yes, you are right, but - because there is a but - Lisa Marie Presley and other friends stated he didn't speak in that way when he was in private. It was a gimmick that he invented (along the other 500 of them) and it was what we, the public, saw (10th). You can hear his real voice on Invincible, I think that Unbreakable is the song.I can search for the exact source of this info, but not right now since I'm running late once again

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Not meaning to argue..only to explore the puzzle. Mutable is mutable and angles are angles. So, Gem ASC is changeable...Pisces ASC likewise. 10H moon is angular/public just like 1H moon.

Everyone has a vocal range, and I leave it to the people who knew MJ best, to gauge his motives in speaking a certain way in interviews. But when he was 12, he was high-pitched for his age: example. Age 19, he was still high pitched: example.

On and on...there's a continuum. It seems like he never established a public, adult voice apart from that feminine one...so it's hard to call it "fake"...when it's so consistently there. And just his desire to be seen as feminine relates better with a feminine ASC conjunct feminine moon, in my mind.

But...seriously, who knows??

ETA:
For comparison, Ricky Martin has a Gem ASC and 10H Pisces moon, and his voice is masculine:
see what I mean?

Garth Brooks-- 17* Gem ASC, 10H Pisces moon:
sweet person, masculine voice.

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posted October 17, 2014 11:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by socialgraffiti:

Libra Asc: + dimples!

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posted October 18, 2014 03:56 PM            

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