posted May 22, 2015 02:21 AM            

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It might be interesting to compare them to those who reject the very concept of gender, though that's technically more like the opposite of transgendered (as transgendered says gender is incredibly relevant)

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It's strange you mentioned that, because actually the person I linked to on youtube - Brannen - is both transgendered *and* also rejects the concept of gender. They often discuss the "non-binary"/ "gender neutral" pov.
So - identifying as - transgender - does not necessarily mean you embrace the concept of "gender".. or at least not gender as "binary".
But perhaps there are more transgender individuals who would emphasise *gender* as extremely relevant, than there are those who shun the concept.

This is their website: http://esgibthope.wordpress.com

posted May 22, 2015 06:33 AM            

The quincunx is an aspect of mismatch and feeling uncomforatable. So he may feel emotionally uncomfortable with his own masculine body. He may feel his inner reality is at odds with his male role he's supposed to portray.

posted May 22, 2015 07:19 PM            

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Originally posted by Odette:
Pixie -

It's strange you mentioned that, because actually the person I linked to on youtube - Brannen - is both transgendered *and* also rejects the concept of gender. They often discuss the "non-binary"/ "gender neutral" pov.
So - identifying as - transgender - does not necessarily mean you embrace to concept of "gender".. or at least not gender as "binary".
But perhaps there are more transgender individuals who would emphasise *gender* as extremely relevant, than there are those who shun the concept.

This is their website: http://esgibthope.wordpress.com

I hope Brannen posts on LL! I linked them to this page.
It would be interesting to see what their reply to this is.

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If there's been a specific blog post or vid on this then please share. I'm too busy this month to comb through all this (though if I had more time I'd happily do so, and I did take a look at the video and gave the general blog a skim). This assertion seems strange so I'm curious about it.

As for my experiences, gender was very important to them. A few might like to switch around but they wanted to be fully accepted as a gender which seems to preclude a rejection of gender to me as I don't see why it would be so important otherwise (and it is incredibly important to them, and holy crap could the anger be intense if you didn't treat it as such, and many would endure terrible processes just to become a specific gender in all ways rather than reject the concept).

Furthermore, there was the account of Deirdre N. McCloskey (summary here) I read about. And I also followed Venus Envy for awhile (even got the printed comic) and interacted online with fans at the time who were mostly transsexual (though plenty of general transgendered as well who followed a generally binary model) and they argued over A LOT. It was so much drama and flaming that I left, but while they argued over the nuances with intensity I don't recall (in the months I came and went) any call to reject gender roles, if anything that would rile them up, like it was invalidating them.

Of course I didn't mean to include androgynes, genderqueers, and such which should have been understood though they're sometimes included under the transgender umbrella (and given that this thread is on Bruce Jenner I was focusing on those with gender dysphoria). Heck, some lesbians used to call me a "boi" when I was 19-21 for being such an androgynous tomboy but I never felt male or transgendered at the time, I was just being me and others stuck the label on me.

posted May 30, 2015 07:28 AM            

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The quincunx is an aspect of mismatch and feeling uncomforatable. So he may feel emotionally uncomfortable with his own masculine body.

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This is interesting! ^
Do you think the same could be said about Sun/Moon hard aspects?

The physical body could be connected to both the Sun and Mars.. right?

posted May 30, 2015 07:38 AM            

I know that *you* personally identify as transgender, but also reject the concept of gender as binary. But I guess I'm curious whether - this is something many transgender individuals would relate to... or whether you would be in the minority?

posted May 30, 2015 07:51 PM            

I'm curious myself. A lot of people don't understand me (and thus assume a lot of wrong things about my intentions) so let me say think of me as an alien xenoanthropologist studying humanity...while I'm not you'd be more likely to get my intentions in their true light if you pretend I am (and I do study myself as well, sometimes baffled by how my mind is working, though excited when I get the chance to observe something in myself that has mystified me about others).

When I talk about my observations, it is simply that. I personally would like to see the gender binary model (and really many forms of Aristotelian thought, at least what it has become) outgrown and discarded. But I don't confuse the ideal world with the world that is.

As an example, someone told me South Carolina was one of the most gay friendly states in the country and didn't like that some people said otherwise. I pointed out that nearly 80% of SC voters (one of the highest percentages in the nation) voted to amend their state constitution not only to prohibit gay marriage but even any form of civil union. She said that surprised her given that she's a firm supporter of gay rights and that everyone she knows is...and I don't doubt her, I'm sure she and everyone she knows is (and it's certainly wrong to say every single person in South Carolina is a bigot and/or homophobe--as opposed to saying South Carolina is an anti-gay state where laws and culture tend to be hostile toward gays)...but you can't really get a good view just looking at who you personally associate with (and those who associate with you), instead one has to look at things like how money is spent, results of elections, etc (with other factors also weighing in) to get a better idea of the social forces at work, the larger world around the little worlds we carve out for ourselves.

posted May 31, 2015 02:57 PM            

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Originally posted by Odette:
Actually Gabby bumped it
I missed it the first time around.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ikja:
Apologies! Shout out to Gabby! Lol ❤️

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posted May 31, 2015 11:32 PM            

And I don't like that

*jk*

posted June 01, 2015 01:18 AM            

I think a lot of transgender individuals know what the gender binary is. However, I think more people than not still subscribe to the gender binary. It's becoming more common, especially in younger generations, to question this binary, but that's why there are still people who identify as MTF or FTM (male to female or female to male); they see it as a linear progression of one to another. Regardless, gender is likely very important to transgender people, especially if they've had to deny or disregard their gender for a long time in favor of what everyone thought they should be.

I can certainly to a quick non-binary introduction! Basically, most people think of gender like this:

Male-------Androgynous-------Female

But it isn't really (or I don't believe it is). If you only conceptualize gender as a binary, this does not adequately explain people who are genderqueer, for example. Non-binary people feel that this model of gender is not nuanced enough to account for other genders. Some may identify as not having a gender, some may identify as having multiple genders, some may identify as occupying a more fluid state of gender, etc. I personally feel my gender to be neutral. Here's a good link: http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Nonbinary_gender

posted June 01, 2015 02:41 AM            

As I was saying in my email - Thank you for that link. It's very comprehensive. There are so many different possible genders.. some I hadn't come across previously, e.g. Xenogender. I really like the idea of gender as being fluid.
Do you feel like most people you talk to, are supportive and open to this concept - or do you have to explain it time and time again?

posted June 01, 2015 02:42 AM            

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“I am and always will be the optimist. The hoper of far-flung hopes and the dreamer of improbable dreams.”
— The Eleventh Doctor

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posted June 01, 2015 02:49 AM            

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A lot of people don't understand me (and thus assume a lot of wrong things about my intentions) so let me say think of me as an alien xenoanthropologist studying humanity...while I'm not you'd be more likely to get my intentions in their true light if you pretend I am (and I do study myself as well, sometimes baffled by how my mind is working, though excited when I get the chance to observe something in myself that has mystified me about others)

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I'm not sure if you thought I may have misunderstood you here, or in the past. But I'm not one of those people lol
For the record, I have always seen you as an an alien xenoanthropologist studying humanity haha

posted June 01, 2015 11:12 AM            

I just didn't want our new member to be worried I'd take any disagreement as a personal attack and react, and personal experience as well as new sources of info are welcome (and when I get caught up on all my work I'll be sure to take a closer look at the links).

I do get a bit frustrated because a lot of people tend to imagine the worst possible tone of voice into any comment (and not just to me). Sometimes I try to share a laugh but others think I'm ranting. I can ask questions out of curiosity and some think I'm interrogating them. In extreme cases (but not the worst where I once even received a death threat!) I've even complimented people online who then lashed out at me for my supposed sarcasm! :banghead:

It just gets tiresome, and also counterproductive. Brannen sounds interesting and I'll certainly be paying attention, even if there are things said that surprise me. Of course I'll weigh it all on my scales but it's something that will go on my scales again and again in the future. And I like that, it's like getting another piece of the puzzle that I now have to work with. None of us can know the totality of reality but when people speak clearly and can share reasons then that can help come close. I didn't want to be "too scary."

I know some people don't understand the love of learning like that. Many get mystified that I study things that aren't of obvious relevance to me, though I can slip it into the scifis I'm writing if nothing else.

And even in real life people get into stupid arguments. Here's a funny scene that a handful of people told me they could relate to as it happened to them once or twice and in face to face:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq2V0_20Mv8

I can believe it. I don't recall myself getting all upset over something hypothetical like that, but like I once had a neighbor from Tennessee (TN) and being in California we got along despite that Tennesseans & Texans sometimes don't for various reasons. One of those reasons is Davy Crockett as both states claim him as part of their heritage and it sometimes ruffles feathers, though people getting upset over it seems silly to me. But my TN neighbor was talking about a TN state park named after Crockett and I mentioned some places in Texas named for Crockett which had her huff he was of TN where he was born and I playfully said, "But he CHOSE to live in Texas." To which she shouted with rage, "TEXAS KILLED HIM!" (That would be at the Battle of the Alamo where Mexican forces overran them and Crockett was among those killed.) I realized then that she wasn't playing, this was serious to her, and I made my excuses to leave so she could calm down and I never brought up Crockett with her again!

posted June 01, 2015 06:18 PM            

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I do get a bit frustrated because a lot of people tend to imagine the worst possible tone of voice into any comment (and not just to me). Sometimes I try to share a laugh but others think I'm ranting. I can ask questions out of curiosity and some think I'm interrogating them. In extreme cases (but not the worst where I once even received a death threat!) I've even complimented people online who then lashed out at me for my supposed sarcasm! :bang head:

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