posted April 19, 2015 11:12 PM            

I DISAGREE. The environment is shown by the charts.

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posted April 19, 2015 11:41 PM            

(1) What is your definition of a sociopath? Are we also including serial killers (given that is what Manson was)?

(2) Is this is a random chart or an infamous one?

Edit: I know whose chart that is! Answer: yes. The environment raised in triggered their actions but they made the choice to brutally harm and abuse others. I'd say this person is more of a psychopath than sociopath. I'll let others answer with their thoughts and then I'll give both astrologically and historically reasons why.

posted April 19, 2015 11:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BellaFenice:
My professor, for example, is certifiably crazy and definitely acts sociopathic.

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posted April 20, 2015 12:08 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BellaFenice:
Good analysis! I completely agree, and I'm glad you touched on the environmental part because the charts can only explain so much. You can have someone with all of the chart ingredients to be a 'killer,' but it needs to be triggered by the environment.

Most of what I've found in sociopathy in the chart fits what Manson had. I think it is important to distinguish between sociopathy and serial killers, because they are two different things as well. Being a sociopath doesn't automatically mean you will murder (I feel Manson was a sociopath as well):

-Moon harsh aspects to Mars
-Mars/Neptune aspects
-Uranus opp BML/Chiron/DC (especially if 7th!)
-Ruler of 5th Jupiter square Moon, Saturn 5th house
-Pluto square Saturn/Merc/Sun
-4th house afflictions
-Excessive or low water (goes both ways- inability to regulate or lack of emotions); for example, Cancer is #1 on violent crimes (most booked and dangerous)
-High amount of mutables

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Thank you! Something else I found interesting was that the Gone with the Actress Vivienne Leigh had an extremely similar chart to Charles Manson- same Sun/Moon/Ascendant in Scorpio/Aquarius/Taurus, Mars/Neptune, Uranus conjunct an angle, Moon in the 10th, afflicted Jupiter as well. Yet she was raised in a much less violent atmosphere than Manson was. It was found though, that in her later years she was diagnosed as bipolar and exhibited some sociopathic traits (very unstable, manipulative, lying.)

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Thanks, you summed up what would've been a long post from me.

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posted April 20, 2015 01:00 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by midnightvenus:
Do you mind expanding on this?

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You mean stories or examples? I have to be careful because of HIPPA rules and whatnot so I cannot divulge very personal stuff but I can describe some student and faculty experiences. It could easily be argued as psychopathy though.

quote:

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Originally posted by socialgraffiti
Thank you! Something else I found interesting was that the Gone with the Actress Vivienne Leigh had an extremely similar chart to Charles Manson- same Sun/Moon/Ascendant in Scorpio/Aquarius/Taurus, Mars/Neptune, Uranus conjunct an angle, Moon in the 10th, afflicted Jupiter as well. Yet she was raised in a much less violent atmosphere than Manson was. It was found though, that in her later years she was diagnosed as bipolar and exhibited some sociopathic traits (very unstable, manipulative, lying.

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posted April 20, 2015 01:13 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BellaFenice:
You mean stories or examples? I have to be careful because of HIPPA rules and whatnot so I cannot divulge very personal stuff but I can describe some student and faculty experiences. It could easily be argued as psychopathy though.

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posted April 20, 2015 05:36 AM            

I think the person's chart you showed was someone lost and misguided and with the Libra Virgo energy, needed purity, balance, structure and order, which is what they found in a horrific setting. The combination of a lack of education, bullying, and fanatical occupation with the League of German Girls caused them to leave school at 14. The structure they found unfortunately was not of the best sort. The combination of high Air, Yang energy, and Cardinal planets leaves for someone who rushes into decisions without fully seeing plans, has a great need to exert personal power, and a difficulty in turning ideas into practical applications.

Ok, so the AC is set at Sag assuming a 12:00 birth time, but I'm not sure I agree with this AC. I could see them being a Taurus AC at 25 degrees, then Algol would be right on the AC. Venus, Sun, and Saturn are the dominants, which can make for someone valuing beauty and pleasing others, fame and recognition, and structure and seriousness. These are all conjunct the MC, magnifying these issues.

I see retrograde Mercury, Chiron, and Uranus, meaning these energies may be challenged to draw out normally and can face difficulties. This person had difficulty communicating their childhood pain, and went about this in an unusual manner to cope.

A lot of planets in the Southern hemisphere draws and to make your actions a visible to everyone. But this often lacks a rich inner life with deeper and wiser reflection. Angular houses- a dominating and powerful personality (this made depend on the element of the houses, since we don't know the actual birth time). Either way, this person was destined for an unusual fate. Almost 50% is considered Libra as the dominant side, and may have had an extreme need to please others. This also makes them very charming and sociable, gaining considerable influence from peers.

There is a grand trine in Water, which again with high amount of water in the chart this can lead to trouble with emotional regulation. The mother committed suicide due to the father cheating, which I believe was the catalyst for the change in behavior. The suicide of the mother was a big event they never got over. This person feels things very intensely, for better or worse.

Mercury and Mars are close enough to add more aggression to Virgoan energy, and perhaps the way of channeling the thoughts was through hyperaggressive means. Uranus hitting Chiron makes for a ultra magnetic person that draws fame and accolades. This control is supported by Uranus-Pluto. Saturn-Neptune is a desire to change social norms and fervent wish to instill their own doctrines and beliefs. It is no surprise after the war they wanted to be a movie star.

Moon and Mars opposite Uranus also adds to quite some unpredictability and impulsivity. When retrograde, the energy may have trouble with karmic or social difficulty in transforming the unconscious. Having followed the rules for some time, this person's interest in extreme groups led to a rebellion where unexpected actions and emotions drove their decision-making. This person probably felt stifled as youth, and went to extremes to express themselves to make their voice heard so to speak.

Instead of working with the Nazis this person could have had a prominent career as a public figure, particularly acting or anything artistic given their high sensitivity. With Jupiter-Uranus, this person could have done well with communicative platforms such as politics. I think Jupiter-Uranus is also what drew them to the Nazis and combine that with Jupiter-Chiron you have someone really longing to express their sensitivity in a grand way. Her sensitivity I guess, goes back to them feeling different and being bullied, and perhaps they expressed her anger and resentment through the brutality and otherness promoted.

An alternative use of the grand trine of Uranus in Pisces, Pluto in Cancer, and Jupiter in Scorpio would be a highly creative, sensitive, and emotional individual. These energies, however, in this person's case were used to create highly elaborate and gruesome torture of those in the concentration camp. The hurt of being bullied may have reflected in a need to torture others, as the dogmas emotionally swayed this person into promoting purity and beauty, classic Libra and Virgo themes.

Jupiter in Scorpio, interestingly, has been linked to sociopathy, and in a grand water trine, and too much emphasis on intensified power may not be channeled properly.

Chiron in Aries is opposite her Saturn/Venus conjunction. The brutality this person inflicted on others was a mirror for the healing they failed to do themselves. The opposition of Chiron to the conjunction shows many wounded, and none healed from the brutality and dogma fueling their actions.

So, this person is a good example of someone who does not have all the 'typical,' sociopathic indicators in the chart. Astrology provides potential, and how we use that potential is based on our own free will. Leaving school, combined with bullying and extremist behaviors, and a parental death fueled her decision-making towards a different direction.

So what Vajra was getting at is that we can have the aspects that can lead to horrific crimes, but is the social conditioning and environmental influences that impact our long-term behavior. Identical charts do not have the same outcomes, otherwise we could simply look at birth charts and determine who the future serial killers are- free will doesn't work like that.

posted April 20, 2015 06:38 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
With Unaspected planets, ASC and DSC don't count, nor does Chiron

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posted April 20, 2015 07:11 AM            

Great points!!!
WWII has been of great interest to me for years, in particular people's mindset to cruelty, torture and genocide during those times. The more you research this, the more evidence you find that a large number of people were not merely following orders, but were also enjoying what they were doing. While I agree Hitler was a phenomenally cruel man, he was not the only one, and it wasn't only the Germans committing atrocities during those years.

posted April 20, 2015 08:48 AM            

You may FEEL an Unaspected planet and it's aspects to the angles. I have an Unaspected venus which trines my ASC, too.

However, in the pure calculation of an Unaspected planet, this does not count.

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posted April 20, 2015 08:53 AM            

My most fascinating moment was watching the Milgrim experiment.

Milgrim wanted to know how "good Germans" could be part of the Nazi machine.

He found many things, one of which is that a BODY of people get together to do evil and the BODY does it, not the individuals.

The BODY is responsible because the people submit themselves to the body. That is one of the tenets of social psych.

There were many Righteous Gentiles, as we Jews call them. You should look at the chart of the heroes like Schindler and Corrie Ten Boon.

In these dark days,in which Nazi Germany history is repeating itself on an even larger scale, we need to look at the heroes, not the weaklings.

There are very few heroes and MULTITUDES of weaklings.

In the end, one does not have the comfort of submitting oneself to a group.

Each man will be judged by His Creator on his own action or inaction.

The upshot for Astrology is that her chart was in in which she chose to go along with societal evil and hence, it cannot be looked at without reflecting this choice on her part and the greater societal choices.

Hence, it is not really a fair chart to put up and draw the conclusions we did from a Manson chart, for example, in my opinion

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posted April 20, 2015 11:13 AM            

His Uranus by some is considered unaspected
Uranus pisces@3.01-6 degree trine to Venus is only
Aspect and some only count 5 degree with a trine.

He has an unaspected Saturn cancer@26.55 in 3rd

His Pluto saggy@26.43
Is conjunct Mercury saggy@21.32
Neither Pluto or Merc make any other aspects

AC taurus@26.58

He has 5 planets in fixed stars....he has so many aspects of someone who can have one of those defining moments that chooses if he turns good or evil.
How do you prevent the evil from winning?

posted April 20, 2015 11:28 AM            

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posted April 20, 2015 11:30 AM            

1. Psychology/psychiatry does not distinguish between a psychopath and a sociopath. The diagnosis is Antisocial Personality Disorder.

2. Charles Manson is not a typical serial killer OR psychopath/sociopath. He probably has an Antisocial Personality Disorder diagnosis, but he is also crazy as a loon. Probably some schizophrenia or something similar.

3. He probably never actually killed anyone. He was not present for the Tate murders, and he basically stayed in the car for the LaBianca murders.

4. What he did do was convince other people, mostly young women, to murder for the purpose of initiating "Helter Skelter."

I don't know that his followers were afraid of him; my sense is they were more mesmerized by him; he apparently is very charismatic at least to certain portions of the population.

Therefore, what jumps out at me in his chart is the exact Mars/Neptune conjunction. (I'm a mediocre astrologer, so I'm sure there are other things, but this one is part of the key).

I don't think you can analyze his chart without also looking at the chart of some of his female followers. And, if you believe there are markers for psychopathy/sociopathy or serial killers, I'd suspect that Manson's will be rather different than the more typical serial killers like Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway. Manson might be more similar to Hitler, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc.

posted April 20, 2015 11:41 AM            

Very uplifting news today, V. Thank you. I just posted a post to my FB page for my website on a French Muslim man who hid Jews in the freezer during the Paris Muslim Terror attack.

There are STILL good people out there. Feels good to see that once in a while

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posted April 20, 2015 12:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
My son has an Unaspected Saturn. It shows an amazing character and is a true blessing for a person and in a person, Gabby!

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That makes me feel better!

His Pluto/Merc are unaspected
His Uranus is nearly unaspected
Then Saturn to....

Pluto, Saturn, AC make a Yod
His-
Pluto saggy@26.43
Saturn cancer@26.55
AC taurus@26.58

His chart looks kind of scary esp with that Algol AC!
Can having Sun, Moon, Pluto, Uranus on positive fixed stars or GC over power an Algol Ac?

I would hope the Pluto on GC would hugely positive especially since it's only aspect is a conjunction to Merc.

posted April 20, 2015 12:55 PM            

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posted April 20, 2015 12:58 PM            

I wish I had a whole slew of those good stories!

They would populate my website

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