posted July 06, 2015 11:46 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
Taking the Saturn aspect to Jung's Moon separately, and using only Jung's autobiography as source material, he described his mother as conventional which fits Moon in Taurus square Saturn. Of course, he's just talking about her conscious personality and he has a lot of complimentary things to say about this side of her, that don't conform to this aspect at all. In other places, he reports that she is sometimes stern and critical, and that does equate with Moon-Saturn.

Both Moon-Saturn and Moon-Pluto describe the "dark Mother," and there are many figures in fairy tales and myth that personify this for example, Kali in Hindu mythology. The fairy tale Hansel and Gretel presents us with two images: the cold-hearted woodcutter's wife and the gingerbread witch.

I understood that you wanted to know how Moon-Saturn played out in Jung's life, so my comments were geared to that. But, let me know if I've misunderstood your question.

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Hello Peony,

The quote was taken from Carl Jung's biography by Frank McLynn

http://bit.ly/1S2Ykho

posted July 06, 2015 12:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bluestskies88:
Hello Peony,

The quote was taken from Carl Jung's biography by Frank McLynn

http://bit.ly/1S2Ykho

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Yes, I know. But, I get a vibe about it. Using words like "diabolical" in describing Jung's perception of his mother strikes me as over the top. Anyone can write a biography, doesn't mean they're qualified or that what is written is true.

posted July 06, 2015 12:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
Yes, I know. But, I get a vibe about it. Using words like "diabolical" in describing Jung's perception of his mother strikes me as over the top. Anyone can write a biography, doesn't mean they're qualified or that what is written is true.

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I'm not following, I don't see the word 'diabolical' in the quote though...?

It's known that Carl Jung had a really painful relationship with his mother, the discussed aspects with Moon-Pluto confirms this, right?

The quote perhaps evoke different feelings from different individuals ...

posted July 06, 2015 03:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
No wonder he is the one crystallizing the Anima/Animus concept, with such an amazing Sun/DSC

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If I remember right, you link the concept to the 7H, is that right? I think that's right on.

quote:

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I think his shadow concept is very much related to his Jupiter/Pluto quincunx...

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Yes, I can see that too. I love precision and I appreciate the precision of your astrological mind. Jupiter-Pluto because Jupiter relates to concepts, philosophy, belief systems and culture. Plus, Jupiter-Pluto as a combination has a lot to do with psychology. Good catch, I missed the quincunx, but it's very significant in Jung's chart. Makes me wonder why the quincunx is considered to be a "minor" aspect.

quote:

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You see, Jupiter in the 8th is like Zeus visiting Hades.

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How delightful! Also, Hades as ruler of the Underworld is like Zeus who rules on Olympus.

posted July 06, 2015 05:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
Hi, Blue

Sure, the Neptune-Pluto MP on his Moon is part of it. I tend to use much wider orbs than people here, particularly with the luminaries, and so consider his Moon to be in aspect to Pluto.

Jung also has Sun-Neptune in major aspect, along with Moon-Neptune certainly correlates with the emphasis on archetypes generally, but in contrast to Freudian psychology, which is Plutonic (id, instincts, sexuality) rather than Neptunian, Jung was attuned to the more spiritual aspects which inform the psychology named after him. Also Neptunian is the more feminine and artistic sensibility of his psychology as opposed to Freud's more pronounced allegiance to the masculine-oriented Enlightenment and science.

The Saturn-Uranus-Pluto t-square is also significant in his chart and in his work. He displayed the typical Saturn-Uranus pattern of starting out within an established tradition with Freud, but then broke away, driven by his own creative daimon in a whole new direction.

The concept of the "shadow," relates to the Saturn-Pluto square in his chart. The shadow consists of the parts of us that we tend to deny and split off in the unconscious. The shadow is something that people with Saturn-Pluto in major aspect in their charts are highly sensitive to and aware of. It was a major preoccupation with Jung and became a central tenet of Jungian psychology.

I think this t-square also has a correlation with that perilous time he writes about in his autobiography "Memories, Dreams, Reflections," which he described as intense "confrontations with the unconscious," in which a death-rebirth drama took place.

His 1H Saturn in Aquarius reminds me of admissions he made in the chapter "Retrospect":

"The difference between most people and myself is that for me the 'dividing walls' are transparent. This is my peculiarity. Others find these walls so opaque that they see nothing behind them and therefore think nothing is there. To some extent, I perceive the processes going on in the background, and that gives me an inner certainty.

Knowledge of processes in the background early shaped my relationship to the world. Basically, that relationship was the same in my childhood as it is to this day. As a child, I felt myself to be alone, and I am still, because I know things and must hint at things which others apparently know nothing of, and for the most part do not want to know. Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible. The loneliness began with the experiences of my early dreams, and reached its climax at the time I was working on the unconscious. If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely. But loneliness is not necessarily inimical to companionship, for no one is more sensitive to companionship than the lonely man, and companionship thrives only when each individual remembers his individuality and does not identify with others."

Memories, Dreams, Reflections

It's interesting that the loneliness and the separation he felt from others had to do with the world of the mind, and with ideas and knowledge. I've never thought of Saturn in Aquarius in this way until this moment.

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posted July 07, 2015 08:34 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
How delightful! Also, Hades as ruler of the Underworld is like Zeus who rules on Olympus.

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Thank you and also for expanding the explanation, Jupiter-style haha Jupiter in the 8th will EXPAND psychology (and our system of beliefs, concepts and what you describe) and that's what Jung did. Also, Jupiter in the 8th expands the shadow, the buried, until it reaches the surface; a volcanic eruption with the help of the Pluto quincunx and everything else you guys mentioned.

And the 8th is intercepted! There is something in there to be discovered and brought to surface when the right time arrives!

Yay! Hades sits on the top of the inverted pyramid here (link) I think this is also interesting to see his Pluto is at the "bottom" of the chart, in the deep realm of the mind, the Minotaur's lair, while Jupiter is one of the elevated planets, together with Mars, his NN AND interception ruler, another catalyst for his approach, disposited by Jupiter. I wonder if a Pluto Yod is not actually valid there, activating a Jupiter/Mars sextile and releasing around that 0 MC, also Jupiter ruled.

I chose this image for the inverted pyramid because it reflects the concept of shadow (mirror) so nicely! but don't miss the article (it is Freudian, but there's no psychology without Sigmund anyway lol the Defender (Sigmund) meets the Emergent (Jung):
http://www.human-inquiry.com/conuncon.htm

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

AstroMandala

posted July 07, 2015 08:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Thank you and also for expanding the explanation, Jupiter-style haha Jupiter in the 8th will EXPAND psychology (and our system of beliefs, concepts and what you describe) and that's what Jung did. Also, Jupiter in the 8th expands the shadow, the buried, until it reaches the surface; a volcanic eruption with the help of the Pluto quincunx and everything else you guys mentioned.

And the 8th is intercepted! There is something in there to be discovered and bring to surface when the right time arrives!

Yay! Hades sits on the top of the inverted pyramid here (link) I think this is also interesting to see his Pluto is at the "bottom" of the chart, in the deep realm of the mind, the Minotaur's lair, while Jupiter is one of the elevated planets, together with Mars, his NN AND interception ruler, another catalyst for his approach, disposited by Jupiter. I wonder if a Pluto Yod is not actually valid there, activating a Jupiter/Mars sextile and releasing around that 0 MC, also Jupiter ruled.

I chose this image for the inverted pyramid because it reflects the concept of shadow (mirror) so nicely! but don't miss the article (it is Freudian, but there's no psychology without Sigmund anyway lol the Defender (Sigmund) meets the Emergent (Jung):
http://www.human-inquiry.com/conuncon.htm

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Hi LeeLoo!

Thanks for the link, will have a lookey!

posted July 07, 2015 09:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bluestskies88:
I'm not following, I don't see the word 'diabolical' in the quote though...?

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Here's the quote:

quote:

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He began to suspect that his mother had a diabolical side.

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It's from the material you linked to, not in the passage you quoted, but I can't tell what page it's on.

Anyway, my impression of McLynn's work appears to be right. The reviews about the book on Amazon call McLynn's book "a hatchet job." Several people commented on the author's bias or negativity. It's pointed out by more than one person that he was partial to Freud over Jung and didn't like his subject. Another pointed out his lack of scholarship and his making assertions about Jung without citing sources. McLynn didn't comprehend Jung's work calling it "Impenetrable," which to my mind disqualifies him as a biographer on this ground alone.

quote:

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It's known that Carl Jung had a really painful relationship with his mother, the discussed aspects with Moon-Pluto confirms this, right?

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If you're basing this conclusion on McLynn's bio, for the reasons stated, I take him with a grain of salt. Having read Jung's autobiography, I think the idea that he had a "really painful" relationship with his mother is overstating it. His relationship with his mother was complicated. Certainly, when his mother was in hospital, the separation probably was painful, and that's a Moon-Pluto correlation. He being highly aware of her unconscious personality, my guess is he saw her as very powerful because of such potent planets aspecting his Moon. I've commented about this in an earlier post. But to claim that Jung saw her as "diabolical" is simply false.

quote:

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The quote perhaps evoke different feelings from different individuals ...

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Actually, from what I've read by people who have read McLynn's book, it's a matter of McLynn's shortcomings as a biographer of Jung that people have reacted to.

posted July 07, 2015 11:04 PM            

Regarding McLynn, I haven't read his Jung bio, but I agree that it may have been a mistaken projection when calling Dr. Jung's mother 'diabolical'.

posted January 07, 2017 12:34 PM            

his saturn + jupiter complete a grand AIR trine with my mercury-moon

his AC on my MC
his jupiter trine my mercury-moon
his saturn trine my mercury-moon
his neptune sextile my sun exact and mars+venus
his sun semisextile my sun exact + mars & Venus
his chiron sextile moon exact + mercury
His node conjunct widely mine

his neptune in my 12 house
his pluto in my 1
his uranus in my 4th

posted January 07, 2017 03:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bluestskies88:
[B] Hello Peony!

Thanks for the in depth reading.

It's really interesting how Freud and Jung are the opposite of each other. Freud being more of the Masculine (consciousness), like you mentioned, which focused on the intellect / mind - Whilst, Jung focuses on the feminine (subconscious), feelings / heart. They are the polar opposites!

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I read Freud after Jung and more of Freud. I think I've only read synchronicity & some passages on alchemy. (I so love his synchronicity thoughts and even if I stopped believing in astrology or other less accepted takes on things, I don't think I could part with his theories on that). But back to reading Freud after Jung, I was amazed how so many of freuds ways of interpreting dreams and jokes were the same as synchronicity, only synchronicity was interpreting reality as a dream. They really were similar in many ways although yes different focuses

posted January 07, 2017 03:22 PM            

Ops was wrong. There are other Chiron aspects but they don't seem as important. Kind of suprised by that

Ok, square sun and conjunct neptune. Can I take that

posted November 29, 2019 02:33 PM            

The birth data by astro is rated C

------------------
Follow me on www.facebook.com/waxyjo fo regular updates on my articles and book readings. I am also now writing for Ask Astrology about more than just astrology:
www.askastrology.com/mars-through-the-signs/

posted December 10, 2019 10:28 AM            

However, Jung has the squarish face and especially jaw that is very typical (well archetypal) of strong Fixed Sign and related Planetary energy connected to the Ascendant. More over, he was described by people that knew him as a taller and larger man, and with a fairly loud and bellicose personality. This fits Aquarius Rising with Leo Sun closely opposed same much better than Capricorn. Capricorn in and of itself (i.e. in an "archetypal" sense) is short to average height, lean/bony, darker or at least sallow complected.*

He was one not mince words or pull punches, and had a raucous side, not to mention his procreative drive was quite strong and apparently hard for him to control (it's logically assumed that he had at least one, if not numerous, extramarital affairs).

Now, if his Rising was about a degree earlier, then his MC would technically be in Scorpio.

* This is why understanding the physical looks aspect of astrology in relation to the Ascendant and it's related factors is unbelievably important. Not because looks are important, but because personality and character tends to be very subjective perceptual wise, both in the describing oneself and perceiving about others. Not to mention, that level of ourselves can change due to free/spiritual will, life cycles, and/or mood.

But our looks/physical body is more inherently set, and a lot easier to be more objective about.

If a person knows that Capricorn rising in the archetypal sense correlates with short to average height, very lean and/or bony, somewhat prominent nose, darker hair, eyes, skin, somewhat long, slender neck, prominent knees or calves, and in Caucasians a ethnic descendancy that correlates with Semitic or Mediterranean type looks, but yet the person in question is tall, broad, square jawed, and fairly Germanic looking--chances are that the person does not have Capricorn Rising. This is not to mention that Jung though while in his youth was fairly introverted, he grew to become a fairly frank and outspoken type personality.

We see the bit of Capricorn shading in in that his eyes and hair are darker than would be if his Ascendant was closer to mid Aquarius with Leo Sun closely opposed same. He probably would have been even taller and larger/more powerful build if the Aqua Rising was later and not cusping Capricorn.

Astrology does not cause any of this, genetics do. Astrology, a symbolic language of synchronicity and consciousness, however, correlates with the genetics. It reflects.

Also there is the factor that while Capricorn does have some (moderate) amount of energy sensitivity/psychism/intuition, Aquarius is definitely more sensitive. Aquarius is the 2nd most psychic sign after Pisces. This is further strengthened by the close square of Neptune to the Ascendant and to the Sun.

Jung had many experiences that could be described as psychic/intuitive in nature. The chart shown, outlines a very sensitized body, above the average primarily via Aquarius Rising Sign and close Neptune square.

I spent a number of years trying to find all the astrology books that talked about the physical looks aspect of astrology as related to the Ascendant and it's factors. I synthesized where all these agreed/had commonalities, and I did my own research and observations.

The problem is, like with the rest of the chart, there is potentially a lot of variability and factors that can change the basic archetypes. Some charts are very complicated when it comes to the Ascendant and it's factors, because of cusping, strong aspects to the Ascendant degree, strong aspects to the ruler, etc.

I did all this research because I wanted a quick way to rectify the chart and approximate at least the correct Ascendant Sign since I believe Cayce's information about potential difference between physical and "spiritual" birth times is correct.

When those times are similar, and the person doesn't have a super complicated chart as regards the Ascendant, it's pretty easy to figure out the Rising Sign. I've correctly guessed a number of approximate birth times based on a person's looks.

posted December 10, 2019 12:42 PM            

But based on her looks and personality (and that I'm a Cap Sun and Merc and she otherwise has no Capricorn or Cancer), I strongly suspected that her spiritual birth time was a bit earlier and that in actuality she had Capricorn Ascendant. I have assumed this for many years.

Just recently, she had a guidance dream which told her birth time (which was at least an hour earlier than her physical birth time), and it confirmed that she does indeed have Capricorn Rising like I intuited, but even earlier than I thought. I thought that it was likely that her Ascendant was very closely cusping Aquarius and conjunct Aqua Venus.

But the time given in her dream indicated it was only slightly cusping Aquarius, and the Ascendant is not conjunct her Aqua Venus.

This actually does make sense because while she is physically attractive (slightly above average), she is not drop dead gorgeous like a woman with Aqua Venus conjunct a late Cap Rising cusping Aqua and chart/Ascendant ruler in Libra would tend to be. Venus, Libra, and Aquarius are individually very attractive indications when connected the Ascendant, and would be very strongly so when in combo.

Her other major factors are besides some weak cusping with Aquarius, her chart ruler is in Libra and conjunct Jupiter with less than a degree of separation. The latter outlines that she is much taller than a woman with a more pure/less strongly altered Capricorn Rising would be in the archetypal sense. She is a shade under 5' 10" and one of her chiropractors, after seeing her X-ray and giving her adjustments, said that if her spine had developed more ideally, she would have been around 6 ft tall. (Libra and Aquarius being somewhat tall, and Jupiter indicating a much larger and taller body than the archetype Capricorn outlines).

posted December 11, 2019 11:08 AM            

I hold little by the physical descriptions of Ascendants, as I've never experienced them to be accurate. Cap Rising will be elegant and often show a Saturnine bone structure and that's it. Colouring is down to genetics.

On a more specific note, Jung almost certainly would have a Scorpio MC. Sagittarius lacks the stability, intensity and dogged application of theories that he held to.

The birthdata used is given a 'D rating, which implies it's more guesswork. I appreciate that to state my case better I would need to do a full rectification and chart progressions and SA. It's not important enough for me to do so, but I am surprised that I didn't find a rectified chart online already...... now I've opened the can of worms though... ;-)

------------------
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posted December 11, 2019 12:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by waxlobster:
I stick by my assessment of Capricorn Rising. This actually makes the chart ruler, Saturn which brings in the Aquarian attributes you mention.

I hold little by the physical descriptions of Ascendants, as I've never experienced them to be accurate. Cap Rising will be elegant and often show a Saturnine bone structure and that's it. Colouring is down to genetics.

On a more specific note, Jung almost certainly would have a Scorpio MC. Sagittarius lacks the stability, intensity and dogged application of theories that he held to.

The birthdata used is given a 'D rating, which implies it's more guesswork. I appreciate that to state my case better I would need to do a full rectification and chart progressions and SA. It's not important enough for me to do so, but I am surprised that I didn't find a rectified chart online already...... now I've opened the can of worms though... ;-)

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Some deeper and important points. Nothing in astrology actually causes anything. It merely reflects and correlates with what is already there. This is whether talking about personality and character, or whether talking genetics and the body in relation to the Ascendant Sign and it's factors.

Think of transits and progressions. Do we really think that large balls of rock and gas, imaginary lines in space, or mathematical code/algorithms actually CAUSE events? That would be the height of superstitious, illogical thinking imo.

But rather, because the deeper nature of reality is Oneness/complete interconnection, one level can mirror/reflect another, which leads us back to Jung and his theory of synchronicity, which is exactly what astrology is. A symptom or manifestation of synchronicity.

As to Ascendants and related factors--the funny thing is, you'll likely find, as I have, that some people look EXACTLY to almost exactly like what they are "suppose" to look like (including self), and yet a number of others differ quite a bit.

There are different potential reasons for this, and this is extremely important to understand.

1. It's potentially complex with a lot of blending of contradictory factors. Few people have relatively "pure" Rising Signs, which would mean the Rising is smack dab in the middle of the Sign and free of cusping, and doesn't have any powerful aspects to the Ascendant itself or to the ruler. In short, just like with the personality/character level of astrology, synthesizing a more complex chart is not easy to do and takes a whole brain approach/attunement and a lot of practice that only a minority percentage have the combination of.

2. As Edgar Cayce's guidance outlined time and time again, there is both the physical birth time and the "spiritual" birth time, and there can be a potential difference in these times, and it's the spiritual/energetic birth time which reflects/outlines the true chart. If this is true, and I've had a number of experiences and guidance messages pointing out that it's true, then it means that there is a percentage of people, even with accurate physical birth times that actually have a different Ascendant than they think they do. Hence, no wonder why they don't look like they are "suppose to".

3. Ethnicity. Astrology is a relative language of symbolism. Most of the observations and serious books written about astrological correlations of looks in relation to the Ascendant Sign and related variables are in relation to Caucasians, which also happen to have the most variation of coloring there is. Compare a classic Highlander Scot freckled, reddish haired type to a classic Scandanvian to a classic Semitic type will quickly prove that. You have the lightest of light to some near Sub Saharan African dark and every shade and coloring in between.

It applies to other ethnicities as well, but it's relative, and more subtle. Somebody born into a body of say primarily Sub Saharan African descendancy with say Cancer or Leo Rising, vs someone of similar descendancy with say Taurus or Capricorn Rising, unless other factors are contradicting or altering it, the former people will be lighter in skin tone.

Basically, what I am saying is that this level and area of astrology is not very well understood or well researched yet. Yet, people focused on astrology have LONG noted the correlations.

In the Dead Sea Scrolls there are astrological references to looks/physical traits in relation to Signs. In other words, this knowledge is not new, but people have been making these holistic correlation observations for thousands of years. It is not so easily just chucked out the window. What is needed is a deeper and more holistic understanding of all the different factors and variables. And it is indeed a complex, relative picture as I'm trying to illustrate/illumine.

As to Jung, keep in mind that an Aqua Ascendant from 0 to 2.5 degrees or so, would still have a Scorp MC, which I can see him possibly having. But then again, not necessarily. My partner has Scorpio MC with Uranus conjunct same. For many years, her chosen profession has been and is an art teacher.

How does that readily or obvious correlate with Scorpio MC? (Btw, she would have Scorpio MC whether or not her physical birth time or spiritual birth times were used).

It's not so obvious or overt that Scorpio MC relates to her career. However, she has had a pattern of sometimes having a very powerful and transformative affect on some her students. She has literally shaped and molded lives for the better. Some of both her female and male students refer to her as their art mom, and look to her as a source for deeper guidance or counseling. She is far more a counselor to her students than the actual counselor is.

We can't always think so literally and step by step analytically.

Sagittarius btw, is a much more pioneering and exploratory symbol than Scorpio. Jung spent a good chunk of his life exploring the globe and more indigenous cultures, immersing himself in those cultures to better understand them. And to say that his work was pioneering for his times is an understatement. Some aspects of same are so potent with deep insight that even to this day, it's still ahead of it's times in some ways. Both Sagittarius and Aquarius are known as being the most future oriented, in the sense of precognition, understanding, and application.

Personally, I think a more complex picture of Scorpio strongly cusping Sagittarius, or Sagittarius strongly cusping Scorpio fits his MC much better than just Scorpio or just Sagittarius. It is easy to see both in his career and influence on society at large.

Just as I see both Aquarius and Capricorn in his looks. (smile).

posted December 11, 2019 05:29 PM            

The clues that lead to an accurate adjustment are down low in the chart: Neptune and Pluto. Luminaries and Mercury in the 19-20° North range of declination are roughly parallel the IC of the chart, further bringing focus to that point and its relation to roots, psychological and familial, and to the collective unconscious. It renders him more deeply observant and concerned with what is under the surface, more like a Scorpio rising than the typical expectations of Aquarius rising as a personality.

Pluto should get the most concentrated attention from the start given Jung's first published work and the subject matter that defined his career was Psychology of the Unconscious. The assertions in its essays also ended his previously close relationship with Freud who rejected all his ideas. Essentially, it singlehandedly launched psychology past Freudianism, making the latter less relevant. That book was published in January 1912 (in German).

This also began Jung's period of isolation as it ended all corresponded with his till-then compatriot, Freud. Using January 15th of 1912, transits had Uranus at 29° Capricorn, nearing early Aquarius. But let's go back to Pluto.

Pluto and Jupiter are the loka planets in this chart. Mars & Pluto being the rulers of the second decan of Cancer (belonging to Scorpio) in the nirayana zodiac where Sun was positioned; Mars is out of bounds, thus less personalized, and since 'unconscious' is the theme of Jung's life Pluto becomes the clear loka planet indicated by the Sun. It is also very low in this chart and near enough to the IC to signal the need to nudge the chart back a bit from 3° Aquarius to an earlier degree that would put Pluto well within range of the IC (and opposite the MC). That is the focal point of his dynamic with mother and home, much more than Pluto's wide conjunction with the Moon. One or both of the loka planets usually make a major or minor aspect to the Asc, IC, or MC (in longitude or declination) and they can help adjust the chart to a more accurate position.

With Asc 3° the separation of Pluto and IC is about 7°, a more incidental relationship than what we normally see in loka planet aspects. Bump Asc back to 0° and there is 5° separation between them; with Pluto's declination 4N48 there is also the possibility of a 15-degree aspect with IC 19-20° North.

Look at transits for his marriage 14 February 1903 with Emma and you'll see Saturn 14S49 declination and just short of 3° Aquarius (parallel/conjunct Asc in early Aqua), Mercury 3° Aquarius-Rx. Transits typically don't specify the exact degree of the Asc directly, but these two do point to the area of 29° Capricorn to 8° Aquarius, 0-6° Aqua most strongly. With the aforementioned Pluto-IC factor, they point to the first three degrees of Aqua most strongly.

Transits for the death of his wife Emma 27 November 1955, and for his own death 6 June 1961 also point to +/-0° Aqua for the Asc.