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Author Topic:   France Attacks, how?
Faith
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posted November 14, 2015 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I understand, but there are troubles with people coming from all over the place, so Germany ends up assimilating not only Syrians but opportunists from all over the place, posing as Syrians. Hasn't this been the case so far?

I just don't know where it ends. :-/

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Vajra
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posted November 14, 2015 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
I understand, but there are troubles with people coming from all over the place, so Germany ends up assimilating not only Syrians but opportunists from all over the place, posing as Syrians. Hasn't this been the case so far?

I just don't know where it ends. :-/


That's so far only a rumour that's being spread by right-wing fear-mongerers who sadly also exist in Germany (especially in some regions in the East where far fewer immigrants and refugees actually live, paradoxically). So far, there's no evidence of any "posers" in significant numbers among the refugees. (*ETA* The German Minister of Home Affairs just stated in national television that despite numerous hints that were followed up on of supposed islamists posting as refugees, not a single such case has so far been proven correct upon investigation.)

But even if some should come with bad intentions, which is of course possible - does that mean one should deny help to the great majority, to those who need support dearly, out of some petty sort of fear? Ugh... I would not want to be part of such a society, and most people I know see it similarly.

As to where it ends - who could foresee it? This will change our entire continent for good, so much is for sure. But change is, and has ever been, part of human history.

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teasel
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posted November 14, 2015 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
I understand, but there are troubles with people coming from all over the place, so Germany ends up assimilating not only Syrians but opportunists from all over the place, posing as Syrians. Hasn't this been the case so far?

I just don't know where it ends. :-/


I thought that ISIS were using those threats in order to manipulate countries into shutting their doors to refugees. It's another way to instill fear.

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Faith
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posted November 14, 2015 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh...I thought it was an indisputable fact. People are people, and Germany is an opportunity. Granted, right-wingers may pounce on that for propaganda purposes. But I think it's very believable that it would happen.

I hope you are right that it will turn out positively. 'Would be an amazing testament to the integrity of the Germans, if you can manage this.

Just seems....like a very long, hard, and sometimes scary road ahead, for everyone there. *fingers crossed*

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LeeLoo2014
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posted November 14, 2015 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vajra:
Faith - nobody is "inviting" the refugees, the choice is between treating them humanely or detaining them like cattle, or worse. They are simply coming and nobody can stop them, thanks to a certain unnamed country's misguided interventionist policies in the Middle East which created the conditions that gave birth to all this mayhem.

Those refugees are the ones who pay the heaviest price, and are in their overwhelming majority regular people, often people with families and good education, who are running from ISIL, with very good reason. They come to our country braving the risk of death (and so many thousands have already paid with their lives for even the effort) because they want what we have, a stable society. They don't come to subvert our country. Conversely, at least one (confirmed) and probably several more of the assailants yesterday were French nationals who grew up in that country. These people, radicalized underpriviledged youths who were not properly integrated, are much more dangerous than these distraught refugees. They know exactly what the horrors of ISIL look like, because they've seen it, and are telling their stories now, which can help restrain our own young radicalized and delusional proto-terrorists.

Intergrating the refugees will no doubt be difficult but isn't that, with all due respect, any Christian's, and also, every humanitarian's duty, to help the victims of terror and war? What are our values worth if we watch families drown by the thousands in the Mediterrenean, or die from asphyxiation like cattle in illegal transports? Mme. Merkel said a while ago that if that's the idea, 'then this is not my country anymore'. Must have been the first time I agreed with her about something.

At my place of work we are currently charged with integrating 700 refugees. One of my colleagues is in charge of the integration effort so I do have some sort of grasp of what the situation looks like at the grassroots level. Also, one should consider that after WWII, Europe intergrated many, many more refugees. 3 of my 4 grandparents were refugees. Compared to then the situation is much more stable and economically speaking much easier. It's doable and it's not like we have a choice in the matter anyway.

I'm much more concerned about the Islamists that are already legal residents in the European countries, due to being born here. Before they actually commit some sort of crime, nothing can be done against them legally, and supervising all of them 24/7 is not feasible.


I have much respect and admiration for the German people and how Germany handled the refugees situation and for your message. It is a model. And I know it's not as easy as it sounds, it is indeed an additional effort (financial and otherwise) for the people living there.

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Faith
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posted November 14, 2015 01:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by teasel:
I thought that ISIS were using those threats in order to manipulate countries into shutting their doors to refugees. It's another way to instill fear.

That may be true, but it could also be true that people are poring into Germany from everywhere. How can anyone verify what's going on at this point? The immigrants are coming in faster than they can be "verified" with paperwork.

I'd like to trust in human decency and say, definitely, there will not be any fake refugees, but from what I've read, huge numbers of people do not have any documentation, or proper documentation. I didn't think that was right-wing propaganda. It seemed believable...if you were fleeing a war-torn country, maybe you would have lost your papers in the mayhem, you know?

Ugh I should get off this topic....

Bye for now

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Vajra
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posted November 14, 2015 01:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
Oh...I thought it was an indisputable fact. People are people, and Germany is an opportunity. Granted, right-wingers may pounce on that for propaganda purposes. But I think it's very believable that it would happen.

I hope you are right that it will turn out positively. 'Would be an amazing testament to the integrity of the Germans, if you can manage this.

Just seems....like a very long, hard, and sometimes scary road ahead, for everyone there. *fingers crossed*


Well your prayers and well-wishes are very much appreciated, and this country needs them; but I feel that especially the younger generation of Germans (at least those who are not extreme right-wingers) actually enjoy the chance to prove their value in this crisis. Having no purpose is difficult for youngsters; here is their chance to do something very valuable, to test their strength.

Look here:

http://www.dw.com/en/germans-go-the-extra-mile-to-aid-refugees/a-18832649

It's true that many refugees lack documents, but someone's dialect of Arabic is probably evidence enough of where they came from. It's difficult to fake native language proficiency one doesn't have, so translators can pretty much determine someone's place of origin, or rule other places out.

I should maybe add that one must also take into account the dynamics of party politics when looking at some of the statements made. Some conservative politicians see this as their chance to sabotage Merkel, who seemed unassailable before she took a surprisingly clear stand in the refugee issue. So, some of their public statements and fear-mongering may actually result from the hope to further their political career at her expense (this could be especially true for Bavaria's prime minister, btw). I find it interesting that the Catholic church, which is strong in Bavaria and normally allied with Bavaria's ruling party, has strongly rebutted the fear-mongering and asked the local government to do their humanitarian duty.

Seriously, if we cannot cope with this, then who can? Failure is just not an option.

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Ami Anne
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posted November 14, 2015 02:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These countries letting in these "refugees", composed of fighting age men, no woman and children,with and cell phones and good sneakers,are realizing they made a H-U-G-E mistake. They are closing the borders, but it is too late.

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deepseastar
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posted November 14, 2015 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deepseastar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@Vajra

I have read that Germany and other border crossings have employed forensic linguists and native speakers of Syrian Arabic to determine whether the refugees really are Syrian.

@Ami Anne

The journey from Syria to Europe is a long and arduous one. Many refugees who start the journey do not finish it. For a Syrian family that wants to leave, it makes sense to send the person who has the best chance of surviving the journey. Children and the elderly are too frail, and women are at increased risk of sexual violence from traffickers. Once they get there, they can establish themselves and send money for their relatives to come. It's not underhanded, it's desperate but smart.

By the way, ISIS absolutely HATES that Syrians are leaving, because they need people around to exploit, recruit, and rob. (Much of ISIS' assets actually come from "looting" as punishment for "crimes.")
http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-propaganda-videos-on-europe-refugees-2015-9

Whenever we have knee-jerk responses to attacks like this by lashing out against all Muslims, we are really just playing into ISIS' hands.

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Vajra
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posted November 14, 2015 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@deepseastar: That's correct about the translators being able to determine people's home regions from the native language and dialect, that is exactly what they do.

Back to the topic though - it just transpired that police has meanwhile made three arrests in Belgium in connection with the Paris attacks.

See report here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attacks-man-arrested-in-belgium-following-raids-in-brussels-linked-to-isis-a6734666.html

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teasel
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posted November 14, 2015 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
These countries letting in these "refugees", composed of fighting age men, no woman and children,with and cell phones and good sneakers,are realizing they made a H-U-G-E mistake. They are closing the borders, but it is too late.


I know someone who was right there, helping with refugees in one country. I'm sorry, but I'll take what I hear from him as fact, not what Fox News puts out there.

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Ami Anne
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posted November 14, 2015 03:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The journey from Syria to Europe is a long and arduous one

Why won't one Arab country with tons of money and tons of land take them?

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Vajra
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posted November 14, 2015 03:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by teasel:
I know someone who was right there, helping with refugees in one country. I'm sorry, but I'll take what I hear from him as fact, not what Fox News puts out there.

Speaking of sneakers...

This boy had nice sneakers, but they didn't save him from drowning.

His name was Aylan, he was three years old. His father survived when their boat capsized, but lost his wife and three children. After that, he was offered asylum in Canada, but instead he returned to Syria because, as he said, his life was now meaningless and he might as well die.

The people below were luckier than that; the Italian coast guard saved them from a dangerously overloaded ship.

https://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/fluechtlinge-263~_v-videowebl.jpg

And here are a few men in fighting age complete with sneakers. They did fight hard to get out of the airtight compartment they were trapped in, and in which they were later found dead, as was evident from their wounds. More than 70 people were crammed into that space, among them some women and children; they probably lasted an hour max.

Just a few examples among thousands.

It's great you know someone who helps out, Teasel; those who work directly on the Greek islands keep recovering dead bodies all the time.

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Ami Anne
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posted November 14, 2015 03:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
His name was Aylan, he was three years old. His father survived when their boat capsized, but lost his wife and three children. After that, he was offered asylum in Canada, but instead he returned to Syria because, as he said, his life was now meaningless and he might as well die.

This was not real. His father was going to another country to get dental work done.

Also, no one answered why the HUGE Arab countries, replete with huge masses of land and huge stores of oil money take ZERO "refugees"

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teasel
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posted November 14, 2015 03:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:

This was not real. His father was going to another country to get dental work done.

Also, no one answered why the HUGE Arab countries, replete with huge masses of land and huge stores of oil money take ZERO "refugees"


Ami, how can you say that??? How can you ignore information coming from people who are right there, and the pictures like those above? I don't understand. I remember you posting photos and information that you said were fact - how is your information fact, and theirs fiction??

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Ami Anne
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posted November 14, 2015 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I will find the info. Here is the thing. WHY don't any Arab countries take them?

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LeeLoo2014
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posted November 14, 2015 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ami, the huge masses of land are the desert. They did help, but people should be able to go wherever they want to go, even as refugees. Migration is an important part of human race successful evolution and global genome viability. All borders should be open everywhere in 21st century, for people to move and work freely. We are now a global world. Differences between 1st and 3rd world should be actively eradicated by each individual. Otherwise we're wasting our time here. What's the point for me writing on my xxxx inch laptop here for a thousand years if an entire people is dying of thirst in the meantime? Spiritual and even material evolution is impossible in the long run, nowadays, with such an attitude. What are we afraid of, to keep our borders closed? People?

Then all the little hearts and enlightened esoteric speech we are sending to each other here are just hypocrisy.

What's with the dental work? quite shocking, Ami. I think the little boy's father was said to be one of the smugglers, but what does this have to do with the fate of that little boy, and generally with creating a diversion from a huge humanitarian issue by saying it's non existent or other people's problem?

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Ami Anne
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posted November 14, 2015 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Look, this is the same as Pre Nazi Germany. No one will face what is happening.

It is NOT refugees. It is an attempt to make a caliphate, which to to have Islam rule the world.

Look at Dinesh D'Souza's movies. They will show you.

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deepseastar
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posted November 14, 2015 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deepseastar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ami Anne, your assertions are absolutely not supported by the facts. Most refugees are either internally displaced (that is, they moved to other areas of Syria) or they are already in other Middle Eastern countries (namely Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QrIapiNOw

The argument is a red herring anyway. Whether or not Arab countries accept refugees has no bearing on the refugees' legal right to asylum under the laws of the European Union, or our own moral obligation to help others in need.

Lastly, as a Jew I am disgusted at the comparison between refugees and Nazis. Many of my own people would not have survived if it were not for the kindness of others who took us into their homes. The rhetoric about how Syrians are too "different" and "dangerous" to be assimilated, or that they are "invading" the country for political purposes, sounds no different than the justifications that have been used to limit immigration to Jews.

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Ami Anne
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posted November 14, 2015 03:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Deep sea

Look at Dinesh D'Souza's movies and then talk to me.

You are playing VERY loose with facts.

It is too depressing for me to see so many people who won't face obvious truths.

I am done here.

Take care, Everyone.

God Bless!

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CupOfDavid
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posted November 14, 2015 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CupOfDavid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@Ami Anne: Your comments, thus far, have been insensitive and disrespectful.

I encourage you to take your unnecessary Islamophobia elsewhere.

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Enneline
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posted November 14, 2015 04:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Enneline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please don't put up with hypocrite Ami Ann. She talks about love n peace but she is a racist and islamphobic due to her jewish heritage. She is of the opinion that jews n arabs are enemies since the Bibel tells so. She did tell me this via Facebook Messenger. I once was befriended with her on Facebook and 50 percent of her posts were about anti islamic Statements. She is a real racist and a hypocrite.

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deepseastar
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posted November 14, 2015 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deepseastar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Enneline, I am Jewish and I do not hate Muslims. They are our spiritual siblings. Most Jews and Muslims do not hate each other. I myself have had many Muslim friends.

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Enneline
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posted November 14, 2015 05:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Enneline     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deepseastar:
Enneline, I am Jewish and I do not hate Muslims. They are our spiritual siblings. Most Jews and Muslims do not hate each other. I myself have had many Muslim friends.

I know honey. But Ami thinks like that. She told me so, it was really strange and disgusting. I know that jews are normally nit like Ami but ahe thinks arabs and jews are enemies since ismael was the ******* son of Abraham or someone. She said that. Believe me, it was really weird to read that

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Faith
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posted November 14, 2015 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vajra:
Seriously, if we cannot cope with this, then who can? Failure is just not an option.

Failure may not be an option but it has to be seen as a possibility in order to be prevented, you know? And despite all the best intentions in the world, an open door policy may have an operational limit, where there is simply no way to incorporate more people, due to all kinds of resource limitations, including human resource limitations, where the number of refugees could ostensibly exceed the number of Germans able to help. I guess what scares me is overconfidence. I see most criticism of the open door policy branded as hate speech of some sort; in that environment, how will serious problems be recognized for what they are? Won't they always be systematically dismissed as right-wing rubbish, and downplayed? It's as if Germany is saying: There will be no problems because we have willed that there will be no problems.

Okay. Maybe that will work. But I'll be biting my nails wondering if there isn't some recklessness in that sentiment. And I don't think there is any solution, really ...I would just hate to see Germany ultimately fall down with Syria, after absorbing so much of Syria.

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