posted November 17, 2009 02:46 AM         

I did not post the initial article to denote a wholesome picture of the religion. The article called my attention because it presents the presence of a jihadist philosophy that is not simply confined to a radical minority.

Forgive my curtness, but I honestly have no time to address this idle thinking. As it stands, I'm going to be forced to ignore certain posts.

posted November 17, 2009 10:45 AM         

Your words are in a more relevant character to the subjects which I am inclined to discuss.

posted November 17, 2009 05:43 PM         

having typed the drafts of two historical novels by a lebanese man which contained a certain amount of information on the muslim way of life, i have come across a few facts. it has never been my most passionate field of study. however lebanon is a prime example of a middle eastern (largely muslim)country that has not known self-rule for a long time, mostly because of european colonists.

posted November 17, 2009 08:05 PM         

This doesn`t answer the questions but Destiny/karma will have her way and we must find Peace in the trials that lay before us.

Bless you! juni

------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted November 17, 2009 11:15 PM         

I know about evil, Nosis.

Nosis, I apologize if my posts were among those that offended you ... I'll go back and re-read what you've written. What I wish to take you up on is that you say you believe that the jihad hate philosophy is NOT confined only to certain extremists. I wish to say that I believe the jihad hate philosophy IS confined to certain extremists. As back up for my opinion I offer my experience of living in a truly new multicultural country, South Africa. I don't believe this is projection. I believe I'm defending my fellow South Africans, a huge percentage of which are Muslim who do NOT, in my experience, hate everyone who isn't.

posted November 18, 2009 02:17 AM         

_________
We should not ignore the facts that the ideological structure for Salafist Jihadism stems from Islam and that Islam, itself, is highly relevant to the issue at question.
__________

The word I want to focus on is 'stem'. Think of a plant ... a plant has stems, not only one, but many. The plant can survive if you cut off a stem that is sick. But you needn't sacrfice the whole plant. Terrorism is to Islam what a sick stem is to a plant ... But the plant is not to blame for the one sick stem. In time, as the world grows more prosperous as more and more people begin to focus on and manifest abundance into this dimension, terrorism will not show its ugly face as often as it does now. You speak of Christ-Consciousness and the work still being incomplete and in that I agree with you. But Jihad is not a sine qua non for the plant that is Islam, which is a good plant, to survive. It WILL wither away and die, given time.

posted November 18, 2009 02:24 AM         

_________
Throughout my own research, I have felt a growing contempt in my heart against Islam for the kinds of things I have seen in videos showing a culture of bigotry and hatred that seems quite prevalent in the Middle East. I had pondered about what to do in regards to this contempt and I decided to start this thread. It would be accurate to say that it was a call for help.
___________

If this truly is a cry for help I hope that you can recognize an answer to your cry. My personal answer to you is to ignore the contempt in your heart and stop watching video's that depict the Middle East and its many problems. Trust me, it's not as bad as it seems. If there's only one thing I can say to you over and over again it would be this:
TRUST ME IT'S NOT AS BAD AS IT SEEMS.
TRUST ME IT'S NOT AS BAD AS IT SEEMS.
Yes there is some catching up to do in terms of respect for human rights and such, but it is getting there. Just be patient. And try not to worry. Pray to Allah to help you understand the religion of Allah. God is in all things, in all religions, in all people, in all that is. God has many names and might be at work even as we speak in the hearts of those who would destroy the world for his/ her/ its sake.

posted November 18, 2009 05:42 AM         

This is what I did to understand - I inappropriately printed off this whole thread at work to read it on paper. This thread is 32 pages long!! Then, I spent my evening reading every post. That took over an hour.

You are feeling emotional over these new thoughts that are entering your life. It's call a loss of innocence, and that can be painful.

Now you are trying to make sense of your emotions with a discussion about Islam. There has been a lot of interesting talk on this thread, and many posters are caring and knowledgable. All have there own perspective of this topic based on their own experiences.

You asked "How much do you know about Islam?" I am being truthful in saying I don't know much at all, but like many people living on this planet, I am trying to make sense of the world around me. fatinkerbell had an incredible story to tell about South Africa. There was a lot of pain in South Africa last century - to the point it affected me.....in New Zealand!!! New Zealanders boycotted sport games in protest of Apartheid. My mother was almost assaulted by a police officer with a baton, while being a part of the protest group!!

There are ripple effects on every action - and I can mean that in a spiritual way.

Did you know that there are many people in the world worried that the United States will control the world through One World Government? There are some Christian countries that clearly would not want that.

The Islamic world is Huge!! Half of the Arican continent is Islamic. We cannot avoid Islam, like we cannot avoid Christianity. They are on Earth to stay.

By the way, I'm baptisted in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - although I'm an inactive member. I have had beautiful experiences with the Holy Spirit, but I still have the responsibility to look after myself and not let human violence get to me to the point that I look and 'find' a root cause. We don't know enough spiritually to know the absolute truth.

I'm picking up that you feel Islam has an anti-Christ feel to it. I think it's probably not a productive thought to go down that road. In fact, it could incite anger. In the workplace, that is an offense and is punishable through the Anti-discrimination law (in Australia).

Almost every night I am subjected to violent America shows on tv, with people trying to shoot the cr@p out of each other. It makes me feel sick and my partner won't change the channel. I have to leave the room to avoid the blood thirsty images flashing into my sacred home. These tv shows do not bode well for the United States' public image. Everything seems to have guns in it. Guns are made to shoot people. It's not people who shoot people. It's people who hold guns that shoot people. So there are murderers in many countries, if not all.

Please drop the angst building up inside of you. Let go, let God, so to speak. I think there's more to how you're feeling then a deep spiritual Christian side. I know you're trying to explore, but I think the root of 'terrorist production' is poverty and lack of education (I think someone else mentioned this too).

Your emotions may be prodding you to explore for spiritual growth. Have you thought abour reading the Koran?

I know this isn't very well written, but I think I've picked up that you are yearning for some emotional satisfaction on this topic, but there are levels of understanding you are yet to experience.

posted November 18, 2009 11:07 AM         

Please forgive my curtness.

My words were rude but I did not intend to suggest that anyone has either intruded or that they should stick to the sidelines. Neither would it be true to suggest my misunderstanding of this matter. Having started this thread, I have been inclined to listen to all the responses that have been made. I expected certain remarks to stray from that which I intend to discuss further. What I did not expect, however, is this enlivening of thinking and feeling in me and my willing to keep this opportunity from going to waste. This being a public forum, anyone and everyone is welcome. I have often been guilty of oversensitivity, but I am earnestly trying the best I can to direct this discussion on a specific path. Given the volatility of the topic in question, I can only pray that the convention I have set for the character of this thread endures.

I am sorry if my harshness is hurtful, but I will not grant any ground to the kinds of thoughts and feelings that are a hindrance to a quickening and depth of life.

These are the very sentiments in thinking that, despite my own victimhood to their nature, become antagonistic to a loftier understanding! This thinking is weighed down by the carcasses of thoughts instead of the illuminating sentience of their being! It is held together by the same dispirited constitution as that which has preoccupied me in the course of this thread!

Please forgive my approach. I know that what I present may result in offense being taken. Nonetheless, the Truth will not wrap itself around to the caprices of our subjection. Yes, Truth is fluid and mutable but it is also severe and uncompromising when confronted!

I have no time to respond and will not have any before this weekend. I must go now but my inspiration has been vivified. Thank you for your sacrifices and humbling attempts at listening!

posted November 19, 2009 11:02 AM         

Thank you! As you can tell, I have intentionally tried to keep myself from referring to the name of the enmity I have referenced. There are a few reasons for this. For one, I figured that it would alienate certain readers because, as difficult as it has been for me to express myself with clarity, I felt that referring to a specific name would make this subject even more vague. Secondly, even though I have made great strides in understanding the differences of the characters of Ahriman and Lucifer, I regret to say that I am still quite confused when it comes to identifying which one is at work in each situation. To make things worse, I have only begun to consider the complexities that might arise from the possibility of both forces working together!

quote:

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This doesn`t answer the questions but Destiny/karma will have her way and we must find Peace in the trials that lay before us.

---

You could not have hit the nail on the head more precisely! This thread is hard evidence of my search for Peace in the trials I am experiencing! Given the intricacy of the processes of the human soul, I wonder about the extent of the relationship between the schism suffered by the three Abrahamic Faiths and the present state of our human evolution. As you have stated, “All will come to balance” and so shall it be. I know that it would be unwise to strive for a changing of the world, for the world’s will is beyond our reckoning. With that in mind, I am responsible for the balance of my own constitution and in this thread I have found a scale to gauge the immediacy of my feelings. I would like to thank you for contributing here because the scale would have been less accurate without you.

posted November 22, 2009 05:47 PM         

kat,

I would like to address you, firstly, because I wish to clarify what I fear you might have perceived as arrogance on my part. In addressing the idleness of thought that has appeared before us in this thread, I would like to emphasize that I am speaking plainly out of a convicted recognition of this idleness. Though my pointing it out is sure to present my character as “pointing the finger at certain persons”, this character would be inaccurate if it is taken as the whole and not as part of the entire delineation which I am attempting. The subjects to which I refer are quite difficult to express for me because these ideas are not simply in my head; they exist as firm realities being experienced by the profundity of my perception! (Again, this may sound like arrogance, but I speak of this in the purest sense! Something within me has been sparked and the depths that my perception has been able to penetrate has increased so much so, lately, that I cannot but call it “profound”!) In any case, this is not to suggest that I do not suffer from this idleness of thought. Contrarily, it is because I know this thought so well that I am able to identify it!

I bring this up because, even though I have often disagreed with your posts, the last thing I desire is for you to think that I do not value anything you have to say. Much of your stances have actually helped me come to a better understanding. I think you are a very wise lady and I love the courage with which you speak your words. Please do not hold my quirks against me. I am not the clearest of communicators and the things within my heart are quite beyond the language in my head.

posted November 22, 2009 05:49 PM         

I have enjoyed the experiences that you shared here with us from the start. I was very pleased that you decided to come to this thread and do so! On the other hand, you are also misunderstanding my own reflections. The first few words in which I became quite cross with your perspective was this:

quote:

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Maybe, Nosis, you are buying into "Storm Threatens" when actually it's only "there's a dark cloud ... who knows if it'll rain or not?" So many other things threaten your personal safety and that of your loved ones on a daily basis: the weather, illness, unforeseen occurences, accidents ... the likelyhood of the conflict between Islam and the West harming you is far less likely. Don't you think?

---

Now I understand that you did not mean to offend and, in truth, I was not really offended. I was simply frustrated that your attempt to pinpoint the crux of my condition was so dispassionate and missed the mark completely. I can understand, however, that you do not really see where I am coming from and (judging from the difficulties I have had in expressing myself here) how easy it could be for others to confuse the conditions and origins of my words.

Conversely, the opposition of my feeling to your words has led to the connection of the enmity that I have referenced to the immediacy of our everyday interactions! I hope that you understand that my singling you out is not to bring ridicule. I could just as easily bring up specific examples of this enmity in my own life. The fact that I have referenced it in your own thinking is not to accuse you of something but to bring it into question. The only way that the meaning of the words that I write will be accurately interpreted is not through my own endeavor, but through the wills of the readers. It is in this spirit that I write. I cannot force the meaning of my thoughts into the contents of any words. That living thread can only be reached by the readers.

posted November 22, 2009 05:51 PM         

quote:

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I wish to say that I believe the jihad hate philosophy IS confined to certain extremists. As back up for my opinion I offer my experience of living in a truly new multicultural country, South Africa. I don't believe this is projection.

---

On this topic I shall further my discourse. There seems to flow a fervent denial of the connection between terrorist extremists and Islam. I have carried this denial myself. The vision that I am now approaching is not to prove that the nature of this extremist, perverted, and nihilistic thinking is a manifestation of the nature of Islam or that of Muslims. What I am approaching is that the extents of this perversion is clearly not confined to extremists, or even Muslims! If we rightly examine the presence of jihadist schools and training camps and the outright reluctance of Islamic governments to locate, arrest or otherwise discourage this abhorrence, we must inevitably conclude that the condoning of this perversion exists. This condoning exists even here, in the West! This is of great importance!

Here I must emphasize, as I cannot seem to do enough, that my perspective is not that this is the fault of Islam or Muslims. I have mentioned before that my inherent ability to empathize is not lacking. On the one hand, when I imagine myself as a Muslim experiencing these forces, I can see myself being slowly poisoned by the presence of this evil perversion in my immediate environment. On the other hand, I can see myself with enough inner strength of soul to not fall victim to this predatory perversion. Simultaneously, there also comes with that the fear of fully expressing this strength of soul because of the fever that persists in the immediate environment where this perversion is most prevalent. Exerting my inner strengths on this stream of thinking, I begin to see the images of what is currently happening in the Middle East (as a focus) and in the world (as ramifications). This, itself, does not result with a weak feeling of blame upon Islam and Muslims. That would clearly fail to understand the purposes of our human sympathy and the images of Muslims struggling with the presence of this perversion. The proper experience of this stream of thought can only lead to the conclusion that this perversion flows out of cosmic forces, namely a cosmic evil. This intelligently conniving evil has nestled itself precisely, acquiring a great advantage in order to bestow upon itself the necessary elements that manifests itself as a force in human thinking. Islam, Muslims and humanity (in general) are merely the victims of it.

quote:

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So here you are talking about how it came about that the polytheistic tribes were gathered into one religion. That is all fair and good, but it is clear from what you write here that you do NOT believe that Mohammed was a prophet of God. My question is, how would you feel if someone wrote of Jesus Christ: "Jesus Christ tried to convince people to convert to his religion."

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posted November 22, 2009 05:52 PM         

quote:

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It's the "his religion" bit that would offend me if I were a Muslim, if you know what I mean.

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Your offense to this is guided by great insight. The words “his religion” were written in haste. Much of what Mohammed prophesied and taught was more the impulse of an Angel than from the personality of Mohammed. It is, however, by the personality of Mohammed from which that religion proceeds. Regardless, your point is well-made and serves to show me that it requires great attention.

I hope this serves to clarify with certainty that I am in accord with the perspective of Islam being a “good plant”. The complexities of the subject matter that I am attempting to present have made it difficult to express my positions and I can understand the confusion. It is quite difficult to discuss these things without feeling very strong emotions. I cannot stress enough, though, the dangers that are faced in these matters. The power of importance that we must place on the fact that Salafist Jihadism is not a “sine qua non” for Islam should not eclipse our recognition of the fact that Islam is absolutely a “sine qua non” for Salafist Jihadism. For the course of the world will go on, with or without our individual participation, but the course for our Spirit requires our direct involvement. In starting this thread, I have refused to maintain an inner silence and found what I was seeking: a discussion of these forces with other living people. I have no one with whom I can share and divest these thoughts. This is my attempt to do something, small as it may be.

posted November 22, 2009 05:53 PM         

Please forgive me for not addressing your questions. I am hoping that my response to fatinkerbell might help some of your considerations. Unfortunately, I am out of time and must get back to my tasks.

posted November 22, 2009 06:13 PM         

I have had to postpone my response to you due to unforeseen events. I hope to get back to you soon but, with the coming holiday, I can guarantee that it will not be quickly.

Feel free to respond to anything I have mentioned thus far.

posted November 23, 2009 05:45 AM         

I can't help but think the United States gov helped train Al Qaeda fighters to keep Russians out of Afganistan.

There are enemies, then there are your enemy's ememies, then there is the fickle nature of Man and your enemy's enemies become your enemy. And that is the nature of Euro/Asia and the States relationship.

When there are enemies, there are scapegoats and name-callers. It's so easy to namecall at a group and form their reputation as the scapegoat. This a is fine war strategy.

Al Qaeda is a perfect group of people. They train well to keep your enemy from gaining more territory. They are also poor and look like they need a shower - the perfect scapegoat when the economy needs a boost from a war.

(That was a little political rant )