posted November 18, 2009 08:39 PM         

A lot of people were believers in this at the time. Even Walt Disney. When a shipload of Jews left Germany to find sanctuary, so many countries (including the USA) turned them away that they finally went back to Germany.

And while it's said over & over that no one (even in Germany) knew of the death camps (at least for what they truly were), it's also been noted that the Allies refused to bomb railroads that led to these death camps, even though they presumably were being used to aid Germany's military forces.

That said, the USA was instrumental in getting Israel set up, though they essentially used it immediately as a spy base for the Middle East and in the Cold War. It may have been seen as a way to "get rid of the Jews without killing them," too, and quite possibly there was thought of nuking them all once they got there (at the time the atomic bombs were hard to use and still experimental and by the time they were ready for such a holocaust, it could be that Israel was just too useful).

At the same time, many Nazis were spared for their expertise, and I understand were major shapers of the CIA.

That's just one aspect of that horrid war (and the fact that it never would've happened in the first place had the other nations not imposed so severely on Germany after WWI). I know so many talk about how heroic it was to stand up to Hitler, but personally I think they speak of greatness that we've never been.

posted November 18, 2009 11:08 PM         

so the rightwingers paranoia about death panels and interference with people's childbearing decisions is not so far-fetched.

indeed many of our prominent citizens and politicians and/or their parents were involved in aiding and abetting the third reich. so much dust swept under the carpet. i suspect that if hitler had kept his thing to germany and not tried to take over EVERYone, he would have been tolerated quite easily.

posted November 19, 2009 11:04 AM         

Procrastinating
Pretending to worry
Solving problems
By pushing them aside
Wasting time
Like we've all the time in the world

Deliberation
Instead of solution
Pan of a term
For blatant fixed
Biding time
Like we've all the time in the world

And I'm not the only one
who thinks we're trying to say
To the heavens and all who hear us
Behold all we have made
We bring destruction
We bring war without an end
And then we live in hope
That tomorrow never comes
That it never comes

We conquer paradise
Just to burn it to the ground
And we build a future
To honor paths we've left behind
We bring destruction
We bring war without an end
And then we hope
That tomorrow never comes
That it never comes

The problems get worse
Before they get better
We find excuses to divert our eyes
Let tomorrow
Deal with what we could have done

And if you think we're the future
That we build tomorrow
When was the last day without a war
We speak of quickness
That we have never been

And I'm not the only one
Who thinks we're trying to say
To the heavens and all who hear us
Behold all we have made
We bring destruction
We bring war without an end
And then we live in hope
That tomorrow never comes
That it never comes

We conquer paradise
Just to burn it to the ground
And we build a future
To honor paths we've left behind
We bring destruction
We bring war without an end
And then we hope
That tomorrow never comes
That it never comes

It's just you and me now
It's just you and me now
It's just you and me against the world (3X)
--one line; ---------------------------
"We speak of quickness
That we have never been"
-------------------------------------
is unclear to me, fragmented, and needs a decipher?.

Declassified files- CIA- and others Confirm the US collaboration with Nazis. If a person or a place is useful we, [the us] always go to bed with them.
From- http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0508-05.htm ->
"Pried loose by Congress, which passed the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act in the late '90's a long-hidden trove of once-classified CIA documents confirms one of the worst-kept secrets of the Cold War – the CIA's use of an extensive Nazi spy network to wage a clandestine campaign against the Soviet Union.
The CIA reports show that U.S. officials knew they were subsidizing numerous Third Reich veterans who had committed horrible crimes against humanity, but these atrocities were overlooked as the anti-Communist crusade acquired its own momentum. For Nazis who would otherwise have been charged with war crimes, signing on with American intelligence enabled them to avoid a prison term."

One of the many reasons I find the adjunct of America as the greatest nation on earth so distasteful. It doesn't take much picking at scabs to find what is underneath.

Others helped too, and If I recall my history correctly, Denmark was the only nation that refused to give up their jews to Nazi Germany.

and wondering how other nazis escaped?
This from London Times=>

"At the end of World War II, those involved in the Nazi regime were prohibited from leaving Germany. Many of them were scheduled to stand trial at Nuremberg. These individuals were willing to make an offer that KLM [royal dutch airline] could not refuse - as much as $45,000 per person in 1940s dollars (that would be about $364,000 today!), a considerable profit in those times for the airline. KLM employees in Buenos Aires, according to the reports, acted as mediators in helping the Nazis to flee. Switzerland was also involved in the complicity, since the first leg of the escape began in that country, using KLM as a launch pad to the new world."

And this from Dervish:

quote:

---

And while it's said over & over that no one (even in Germany) knew of the death camps (at least for what they truly were), it's also been noted that the Allies refused to bomb railroads that led to these death camps, even though they presumably were being used to aid Germany's military forces.

---

I vaguely remembered something mentioned in astrologer Eric Francis's Auschwitz writings about that-
going to look it up, as this is also very difficult to comprehend.

Kat's link:

quote:

---

Eugenics was the racist pseudoscience determined to wipe away all human beings deemed "unfit," preserving only those who conformed to a Nordic stereotype. Elements of the philosophy were enshrined as national policy by forced sterilization and segregation laws, as well as marriage restrictions, enacted in twenty-seven states. In 1909, California became the third state to adopt such laws. Ultimately, eugenics practitioners coercively sterilized some 60,000 Americans, barred the marriage of thousands, forcibly segregated thousands in "colonies,"

---

I had no idea that California was not alone in this. Also I am reminded of how closely this mirrors the gay marriage laws currently, [Maine had granted legality. last months election with the same religious factions that got prop 8 passed in CA successfully removing it in Maine] abortion rights- again and again and again, corporate america money and religious extremists in congress are trying to run the show. America might just allow them to do so.

Thanks for the post

posted November 21, 2009 04:43 AM         

quote:

---

is unclear to me, fragmented, and needs a decipher?.

---

Like a lot of VNV Nation songs (and of that genre in general), the songs are intentionally left open to multiple interpretations. VNV N often does songs with a theme that can be both personal and political, and often mentions how people hurt themselves and each other while crying out intentions on being better than that and to be saved from themselves (if they can even admit they're the one hurting themselves). They also sing a lot about people who lie to themselves and everyone else, sometimes without even fully realizing it, and that these lies are what constitutes our society (and without those lies, society would collapse without its foundation--which may, or may not, be a good thing).

In this specific song, it can be applied both personally and politically/socially. It's about a false sense of pride, untrustworthiness, people claiming to act on goodwill when they're actually quite malicious (or at least uncaring), putting things off, and just hoping to keep doing the same dirty things while expecting different results.

And I thought of it specifically because of that YT vid which puts WW2 planes & ships, and MY personal point was that the USA (and everyone else for that matter) aren't anywhere as righteous as they claim to be. Heck, WE (meaning the "Allies" who fought against Nazi Germany, not just the USA) created the Nazi regime, both by what was done to Germany after WW1 (and thinking tomorrow--ie, karma--would never come of it *) AND by our promotion of eugenics. Nazi Germany was our karma, an evil we brought on ourselves by our own evil, because we make war without an end, burn paradise that we conquer to the ground, and think we won't ever have to pay for what we do. And the intolerance, arrogance, abuse of governmental power & oppression, injustice to minorities, politically inspired witch hunts, and such were going on everywhere, but we act as if we were standing up to all these things (while still practicing much of it ourselves--some allies as bad or worse than Germany actually, and the USA is guilty of its own atrocities, including in sending many innocents to their death in & immediately after WW2--and still practice a lot of that today in one form or another), rather than the fact we were standing up to someone who was a threat to the dominant political and economic powers of the time. Had Hitler not insisted on taking over (or had members of his inner circle succeeded in assassinating him as they tried), Nazi Germany would not have the aura of evil that it does today (even with the death camps--just look at all the other nations that had their own death camps that don't have that aura of power, including the Russians at the time), and thus they would not be the favorite villains for people to hate and the demented to worship, and would just be a more extreme (though not most extreme) of business as usual, especially back in those days, that didn't particularly bother the rest of the world who more often than not sympathized with what they were doing.

(*btw, I define karma differently from many here, I think. I see karma as a blind machine. It's not sentient justice, and the innocent are actually more likely than the guilty to pay because the innocent don't know how to get out of the way or even naively think, "I've done nothing wrong so I have nothing to fear" whereas the guilty often take precautions).

posted November 21, 2009 01:59 PM         

quote:

---

-Like a lot of VNV Nation songs (and of that genre in general), the songs are intentionally left open to multiple interpretations-

---

yes, I was just wondering about that particular line Dervish.
I liked the vid and looked at a few others, as I appreciate that music.

and, I agreed with much of what you said. Particularly the line "the greatness we have never been." Society is the petri dish that fosters our 'monsters' or that which we define as evil.

would like to add that I looked at the Eric Francis reference, and what he mentioned was that a concrete pool full of water had been placed next to the train tracks. The Nazis had insured the camps, and the insurance co. required that they have a water source in case of fire.

posted November 21, 2009 02:45 PM         

this is how i feel, although i think it is not so much the difference between guilty and innocent as the difference between those with conscience and without...ie a person whose conscience is overactive and tells him his actions may have hurt someone is more likely to cop the karmic "fallout" than the person who doesn't see the difference between right and wrong.

as to our lily-white picture of ourselves, i am 100% in agreement. we didn't get into the war because of the nazis treatment of jews etc, but because of their(and the japanese) imperialistic tendencies which posed a direct and indirect threat to our material well-being. so is it always in war.

posted November 22, 2009 01:02 AM         

Germany was in strife and Hitler lead the country successfully at first. Unfortunately, Hitler was influenced by occult even though one of his speeches, he repels the idea of occultism.

He was a fanatic as we know, but how much is written about his interest in occultism? Could we say he was a leader but influenced by his own style of religion?

An occultist with syphillis did so much damage.

When I was a teen, I heard Walt Disney was a Nazi supporter.

Looking after war criminals for returned favours may have been the beginning of the United States characteristic of 'doing what it wants 'cause it can'.

Watch as the United States will now show itself in any political conflict in Europe/Middle East so that it can keep Russia, and other countries of potential power, at bay.

Countries wishing to expand its sphere of influence will probably have to take on the States - therefore, most European/Middle East countries are now confined to itself in terms of its economic strength and growth. There will never be Empires in Europe ever again, bacause of the watchfulness and preparedness of the States.

(Off track a little, but enjoyed the intellectual connections this thread encouraged in me).

posted November 22, 2009 11:30 AM         

Very well put, Koi!