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posted November 22, 2009 12:27 AM         

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Is there a particular faith that is attached to this saying?

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posted November 22, 2009 01:41 PM         

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since creed is a personal choice, and religion, no, it does not pertain to any particular god. freedom of religion and thought are cornerstones of the american ethic...of course the "founding fathers" were pretty much all christian...i don't recall any jewish or muslim or taoist members in the group!

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posted November 22, 2009 06:08 PM         

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There were Jews (I think the one who is quoted as saying "don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes" was Jewish, but I'm not certain...I AM certain that there were at least a couple of big names in the Revolution who were Jewish, however). There were also a surprising number of Deists, which was what Unitarians, Agnostics, and outright Skeptics called themselves back then if they didn't want to be set on fire. IIRC, Abigail Adams was an outright Unitarian, and Thomas Jefferson, though professing an admiration for Jesus and referencing a god or "Providence," said the Bible was obviously a bunch of hooey (not in those words, of course) and the fundies of the time freaked when he became POTUS.

It should be noted that many came to the colonies to escape the most vicious wars being waged in Europe between Catholics and Protestants, which was riddled with human sacrifice (though they didn't call it that, people were killed in order to turn away God's wrath and even systems were set up to prevent the sacrifices from committing suicide before their execution, which is typical of those who practice human sacrifice). These wars were so vicious, evil, and cruel that some of the worst punishments inflicted in Nazi death camps against the incorrigible were how some Holy Inquisitors merely warmed up before demanding (or even allowing) confessions & repentance. This, no doubt, is why there was a separation of church & state put in. Because they'd seen the horrors of "Christian nations" and didn't want to become another one. That, and some (especially the minorities like Deists & Jews) felt that any form of theocracy was automatically hostile to liberty & justice for all (or even white males 21 and older who owned property, as "all" meant back then).

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posted November 22, 2009 07:42 PM         

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ironic, no? well, unitarians are christians really, just quite broadminded for the day...the unitarian church was where my mother sent me when i insisted on going to sunday school (my parents were seriously NON religious because of their own experiences and observations of what is done in the name of religion and "God") because i was lost when my classmates talked about god or said their goodnight prayers!

when obama was elected a british friend quipped after his acceptance speech "well they finally got to the equality part, when will a president take office without ending his speech "god bless america"?"

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posted November 23, 2009 05:16 AM         

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Thanks katatonic and Dervish - I'm finding it interesting trying to understand the American culture.

It's almost like a new club started to divert away from the evolution of earlier Europrean nations. A total u-turn in the development of European history.

If State was separated from the Church then why is "God Bless America" used by Presidents?

If someone is using 'God Bless America' in their speech, does that mean they are actually committing an act of treason?

I wonder if this question has been asked before in LL.

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posted November 23, 2009 06:06 AM         

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Religion isn't prohibited in the USA, just not allowed to rule. This is the reasoning why the schools cannot mandate prayer. Contrary to the lies of the Christian Right, prayer IS allowed in school, but--if the school is considered government (ie, is funded by tax dollars)--then it can't demand that kids in class pray (though private schools can), because that would be mandating a religion, and that violates separation of church & state, which was (in theory) to protect us from what would inevitably grow into tyranny.

Very short & sweet: either ALL religions get to pray or NO RELIGIONS get to pray, because anything else would show the government as backing a specific religion; and it's just easier to stay out of it rather than cater to everyone. The government itself is supposed to stay clear of it, but individuals that "serve" within the government are free to exercise any religion they want. (In theory, Obama would've been free to say, "Hail Satan," if he wanted, and didn't care what it would've done to his approval ratings. )

What this means is that a POTUS (President of the United States) is free to exercise and express any religion he wants, of a specific sect or of a more general sentiment. He can publicly wish people Merry Christmas. But he can't force anyone else to use the term "Merry Christmas" (at least not Constitutionally).

As an individual, JFK was totally free to be a practicing & devout Catholic, but as POTUS he couldn't mandate that all government/public schools start teaching a Catholic curriculum.

I'm not certain how "In God We Trust" and adding in "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance was ever allowed (though I understand it was put in to help show "America isn't a bunch of godless communists & socialists," the pledge being altered in the 1950s, IIRC, and the coins being officially changed in the same decade, though the history of the coins being so altered is more complicated than that). I believe this to be unconstitutional.

However, Obama's use of "God Bless America" (as I believe every single POTUS said before him) was perfectly legal and allowed by the Constitution. And it's generally customary because we in the USA tend not to trust politicians, especially as they seize more & more power to themselves, and have a strong reputation for lying & corruption. But it is--ridiculously--believed that IF they believe in a god (preferably the Christian one, but even a Hindu god is better than no god), as expressed by such statements as "God Bless America," then they're believed to live either in reverence and/or fear of a higher power and this belief should keep them honest. It's a mind boggling STUPID belief most Americans have as it has repeatedly been proven false (and for thousands of years before the USA actually existed for that matter), but nevertheless people still believe this despite recent to ancient history and politicians use it to convince people they're trustworthy (and often that they're "one of the people" by sharing a common god with the bulk of the population, too).

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posted November 23, 2009 06:31 AM         

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Thanks Dervish - you've given me better insight. I understand exactly what you wrote.

It's a bit like a car salesperson saying "It's only had one woman driver".

Give the right script and you're onto a seller!!

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posted November 23, 2009 06:33 AM         

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I believe the pledge using "under God' has caused a stir in the past. Or is it a part of the national anthem?

Some people can choose not to say it? Or sing it?

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posted November 23, 2009 11:53 AM         

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careful not to confuse the "official" line with what people expect and vote for. though kennedy was constitutionally qualified whatever his religion his catholicism was a fairly large issue at the time. he was our first NON PROTESTANT president and a lot of people held that against him, and others worried he would not get in because of it.

the fact that to be openly atheist or non christian is still a huge handicap for a presidential candidate is a "given". so they all say "god bless america" when accepting the office, and they swear their oath on the bible, because the general consensus is that a god-fearing man (christian implied STILL) will not commit atrocities on us or in our name!

anyone familiar with the dylan song "with god on our side"?

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posted November 28, 2009 01:53 PM         

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Interesting discussion.

Thanks for all this good information. I was just reading about how many of our founding fathers were Deiists. Benjamin Franklin did not like Christianity and one of the secret societies he belonged to was openly Satanic. (Many secret societies were/are Satanic but not openly.)

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