posted April 29, 2010 04:44 PM         

I want to be like you when I grow up.

posted April 29, 2010 05:11 PM         

jwhop i guess it depends who you listen to. i have heard a few defenses of this arizona move, but most of the people i've heard are not agreeing with it at all...so again, time will tell...

but let me repeat "a nod or a gesture" indicating willingness to work. i am familiar with the gestures they mean. just like waving hello!! now how much probable cause does that force the police to come up with?

ever wave to a friend across the street?

"I will not support any president or candidate or any Senator or House member or candidate for those offices who is so stupid or so corrupt they will not secure the borders of the United States and eject those in the United States illegally"

the fact is jwhop our borders have never been "secure". it is only recently that we have to show papers to get in and out of mexico. i remember my mother, 45 years ago, moaning about how soft we were on letting in immigrants. every other country, she insisted, had stricter immigration laws and requirements but we just let any and everybody come here.

posted April 30, 2010 01:47 AM         

Eleanor is right. It is not just because we are going on post in a foreign country. According to the Status of Forces Agreement, we have to not only provide our USAREUR (USA in Europe) driver's license, we must also provide our Military ID card. The German or any other foreign government can detain us without that card as being in the country illegally. Our passports even have a SOFA stamp which allows us to stay in Europe or OCONUS (Overseas) for more than a specific amount of time (90 days in Germany).

Military fiance's or family members can only stay in country for 90 days due to those exact laws. Having an ID card doesn't necessarily mean that you are there legally and they can ask for your "papers" or stamped passport.

Once we get to an OCONUS base we have to have our ID cards registered and then scanned every time we go on post. The German police can also call the MP's to ensure that we have been registered.

Our Arizona law has been distorted in the press by the leftests that would love to keep the illegals here for a voting base and for monetary purposes. Our police officers are not going to just stop people for the hell of it because they are brown. They will stop suspicious vehicles (which the Border patrol are already allowed to do) or people that are violating the law and then ask them about their citizenship.

Arizona does NOT hate immigrants, we are tired of the illegals that have been bankrupting our system. Here in Cochise County we have had several hospitals close within the last 10 years because of anchor babies and caring for illegals. In a county that is over 5000 square miles, closing a hospital severely hurts our access to emergency health care. At this time, we only have ONE hospital that can deliver babies due to the fact that the costs for the more rural hospitals caused them to close their centers down.

Illegal immigrants cost this state millions in environmental damages by leaving trash, old backpacks, water bottles, clothes and other items throughout our desert. At one point a border group collected several tons, yes TONS, of trash within 5 hours. They then took all the trash and clothing items and stuck them on a fence bordering HWY 90. For almost 20 miles all we saw were the above mentioned items hanging on the fence. It was a HUGE wake up call as to the damage done.

Illegals break into our homes, damage our cars by breaking windows, stealing items, scratching the paint on cars. People in many areas cannot walk their dogs at night for fear of being jumped by groups of illegals.

As far as the border check points, they are here by Federal law and even at that Arizona had to fight to keep them permanent as the pro-illegal immigration groups called them unconstitutional. The only agencies in authority to ask about citizenship have been the border patrol / customs agencies. Police could only ascertain citizenship if they had been stopped for committing a crime and taken into custoday. The BP out here (as seen from the article down below) are able to run fingerprints with probable cause. This AZ law allows our local agencies to do the same.

***Notice this article at the bottom has a list of VERY disturbing illegals that were deported and came back. Their crimes are horrid:

U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers stopped a drug-smuggling attempt when they seized 112 pounds of marijuana concealed inside the boards of the floor of a flatbed trailer.

On Saturday at a little past 11 a.m., CBP officers were screening traffic coming from Mexico. The officers selected a 1993 Chevy pickup pulling a flatbed trailer for inspection. The vehicle was being driven by an 18-year-old man from Agua Prieta, Sonora, Mexico.

With the assistance of a special trained dog team, the CBP officers discovered that the boards of the floor of the flatbed trailer had been hollowed out and were being used to smuggle marijuana. The total weight of marijuana was 112 pounds with an estimated street value of $251,000.

Officers seized the vehicle and the marijuana. The man was turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement for further questioning.

Attempt to hide pot in mattress thwarted

U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers in Naco, Ariz., stopped a smuggling attempt when they seized $729,000 of marijuana concealed in a mattress.

On Saturday at about 2 p.m., CBP officers were screening traffic coming from Mexico. The officers selected a Chevy Silverado full of furniture for further inspection. The Silverado was being driven by a 30-year-old man from Naco, Sonora, Mexico. With the assistance of a special dog team, the CBP officers discovered that a mattress was full of packages of marijuana. The total weight of marijuana was nearly 330 pounds with an estimated street value of $729,000.

CBP officers seized the vehicle and the marijuana. The man was turned over to the custody of Immigration and Customs Enforcement for further investigation.

Joint effort helps nab man wanted in crash

U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers working together on joint operations with \Border Patrol agents in Nogales, Ariz., effected an arrest of a fugitive who attempted to elude charges stemming from a hit-and-run traffic accident causing a death in Fresno, Calif.

At about 2:55 p.m. April 21, U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers were conducting outbound examinations and encountered 31-year-old Valerio Eliseo Santiago-Perez.

During the examination, the officers discovered that Santiago-Perez, a citizen and national of Mexico, was in the country illegally. Further examination by CBP officers revealed a warrant for his arrest in connection with a hit-and-run accident causing death. The warrant was issued out of Fresno.

Once the officers discovered the possible warrant, they took him into custody. By using the fingerprint system, officers were able to verify his identity and confirm that he was the subject of the warrant.

Santiago-Perez was turned over to the Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office for further processing.

Arrests

• Border Patrol agents assigned to the Nogales station arrested an illegal alien Saturday who, according to records obtained through the fingerprint system, was arrested for raping a child. The subject was held for prosecution.

• Agents assigned to the Nogales station arrested an illegal alien Saturday with a conviction record for “sexual intercourse with a minor,” according to fingerprint technology. The subject was held for prosecution.

• Agents assigned to the Casa Grande station arrested a Sureno 13 gang member Saturday. The subject’s gang affiliation was discovered after he was entered into the fingerprint database. He was held for prosecution.

Rescues/recoveries

• Agents assigned to the Tucson station rescued an illegal alien Friday who appeared to be suffering from hypothermia. The man was taken to a local hospital for treatment.

• Agents assigned to the Tucson station located two abandoned vehicles Saturday that had been reported stolen. The vehicles were turned over to the Pima County Sheriff’s Office.

In other news:

ELFRIDA

Agency Assist: On 040810 at 1900 hours, Deputies stopped an Isuzu Rodeo at MP 27 on Highway 191 near Elfrida for an obscure license plate. Deputies discovered 10 persons who were identified as UDA’s. The subjects along with the vehicle were turned over to Border Patrol

DOUGLAS

Burglary: On 4-11-10 at approx. 1000 hours, Alberto Samaniego-Olivas, Jose Zubiate-Carbajal and Jose Alfredo Silveira-Samaniego, undocumented Mexican nationals, admitted entering an unknown residence and stealing milk and sugar. In addition, they were in possession of rolled copper wire, a section of brass well pipe, and misc. household items which were from an unknown residence

Disorderly: On 04/10/10 at approximately 2212 hrs, Johnny Mendez was arrested at a residence on Palm Ave. in Pirtleville, Az. for resisting arrest, criminal damage, and disorderly conduct. Johnny broke the window to a vehicle and broke the side-view mirror to another. Johnny did not comply with Deputies’ orders to surrender after with-holding his hand in his pocket. Johnny continued to resist after apprehension.

Wanted Person: On 4-12-10 at 20:27 hrs, an Undocumented Alien, Ignacio Martinez-Neri was arrested at the United States Border Patrol Station, on a valid Felony warrant out of Broward County Sheriff Office located in Fort Lauderdale for original charges of disorderly intoxication

Criminal Damage: On 04/09/2010 between 1000 hrs and 1500 hrs, an unknown subject, believed to be an Undocumented Alien, attempted to break into a residence located on E Cielo Vista Rd, Portal, AZ. During this event, the unknown subject damaged a window screen and iron window bars, estimated cost of $300.00

Many of Americans are sick of the illegals wasting our tax dollars. All one has to do is go to the numerous articles written about cities such as San Fran, LA and even NYC that want to boycott AZ and you will see how the majority of people commenting SUPPORT what we are doing out here. I am sure TX and possibly NM will come on board. California needs to tighten their reform or put their state into even more debt.

posted April 30, 2010 02:15 AM         

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

posted April 30, 2010 02:23 AM         

Please don't think I was putting all liberals into that category. I was speaking about leftests and in some cases, even RINO's and conservatives that feed off the cheap labor.

I have no problem with people coming here legally and trying to help their families here or in other countries. I think that is what the US is all about. I had several friends from Europe that came here to make a better life back in the 90's and they had to have sponsors, proof of income and check in with INS before they could get citizenship. It really bothered me that my own state (CA) would allow illegals to come in, get welfare, healthcare and work under the table with my good friend from Ireland had to go through the proper channels just to stay here.

Even foreign born Military wives have to go through an extenstive citizenship process and I see the frustration in their eyes knowing that our country is allowing others to be here, work and receive benefits without having to go through the same process.

I have worked with many Soldiers that joined the US Army and became citizens (when I was in Germany) and it was awesome when they would come into my office to tell me they had done just that. These Soldiers were from all over the world, Africa, Germany, Italy and South America.

posted April 30, 2010 02:34 AM         

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

posted April 30, 2010 10:39 AM         

isn't it already illegal to hire illicit immigrants? or to work without papers? what has this law changed EXCEPT for making it legal to stop and search someone on the grounds that they made a "verbal or nonverbal gesture indicating willingness to work" (in other words on the flimsiest and least provable of excuses) the checkpoints are already there, the border patrol is already there, and the deportation for criminal activity is also already in place.

but unless they are stopped before entering you will just have a different bunch replacing the old ones until the EMPLOYERS are scared enough that they stop "saving" overhead by hiring illegals.

mexicans who might otherwise spend their holiday dollars in arizona will not be doing so for awhile. many citizens from other states, ditto. the taxpayer dollars recouped will be minimal since the extra police and prison activity will cost.

as i think i also said, it's arizona's call. that doesn't mean it's not scapegoating, nor does it mean that this law cannot be used on any and everybody the police see fit to "suspect". immigrants come in all shapes sizes and colours.

i was a legal immigrant for 21 years in europe. i had to go through the ropes to get legal residency but i also was aware that if i did NOTHING WRONG i was unlikely to be stopped and searched.

do you drive a car with military plates when you're in az??

posted April 30, 2010 12:19 PM         

Police cannot form an opinion as to anyone's possible immigration status by simply looking at them and in the absence of any probable cause to do so...question them about their immigration status.

posted April 30, 2010 01:46 PM         

[edit: an officer is allowed to claim under this bill that he observed a person making a gesture or nod that indicated he was available for work)

like i said jwhop, waving to someone is a common occurrence and certainly no indication of illegal presence. it is specifically mentioned in this law as one of the justifications for stopping people. it leaves the burden of interpretation on the officer in question. dicey.

this bill is only 17 pp. not too hard to read. pretty much everything else in it looks like standard procedure when dealing with illegals. stuff that would already be on the books. maybe the penalties have been changed, i don't know about that.

posted April 30, 2010 05:43 PM         

as i said, i know what they are talking about. there are mexicans who stand by the side of the road and wave at you - just like they are saying "hi!" -; the fact that this is so does NOT mean an officer can tell the difference between a real greeting wave and this sort of gesture.

it does however mean that an officer can justify his suspicions by such an ambiguous sign. in the case of a mexican appearing person this puts us in a word against word situation. not to mention that as ANYONE can be illegal regardless of appearance, ANYONE can be stopped with this excuse. as people are in california and elsewhere if they happen to swerve when a cop is looking for suspicious characters...

as i understand it the governor has signed this bill into law so unless there is a lot of pressure to amend it, it is now law - though i believe the effective date is still in the near future.

so all the measures you talk about that are going on already are from previous laws. it is already illegal to work without papers or hire someone without papers but it goes on all over the country as i'm sure you know. as in some of your objections to bills that duplicate laws already in existence, WHAT ELSE IS IN THIS BILL THAT ISN'T ALREADY SET DOWN?

posted April 30, 2010 10:29 PM         

You are 100% right. Here is the article in our local paper that details the changes:
http://www.svherald.com/content/news/2010/04/30/legislators-alter-immigration-law

Katatonic,

Thankfully you are not related to the Deputy in the article below that just got shot today by illegals using AK-47's. Again- until you live down here and deal with this, you will never understand. Simply sticking to semantics and what you perceive could happen is not the same as what WE are enduring down here.

PHOENIX - After a frantic hour-long desert search, authorities found a deputy wounded in a shootout Friday with suspected illegal immigrants apparently hauling bales of marijuana along a major smuggling corridor in southern Arizona.

The deputy was found with a superficial wound - a chunk of skin torn from just above his left kidney - after being shot with an AK-47 on Friday afternoon, Pinal County sheriff's Lt. Tamatha Villar said. He was flown by helicopter to a hospital in Casa Grande, about 40 miles south of Phoenix.

Villar said the deputy was doing smuggling interdiction work and found bales of marijuana in the desert. He then encountered five suspected illegal immigrants, two armed with rifles, and was shot.

``He was out on his routine daily patrol in the area when he encountered a load of marijuana out in the desert. He obviously confronted the individuals and took fire,'' Villar told The Associated Press. ``I was speaking with him just a bit ago, and he's doing fantastic.''

The deputy was alone about five miles from a rest stop along Interstate 8, about halfway between Phoenix and Tucson. The area is a well-known smuggling corridor for drugs and illegal immigrants headed from Mexico to Phoenix and the U.S. interior.

``Over the past 12 months we've seen an increase in the amount of drugs, and an increase in violence that has been going on in this particular corridor,'' Villar told KPNX.

``We've had increasing concerns in this area about being outmanned and outgunned, and unfortunately this evening, this is coming true,'' he said.

The shooting came as Arizona grapples with backlash over its enactment of a tough new law targeting illegal immigration. Civil rights activists, concerned the law will lead to racial profiling, have called for a boycott of the state.

The law signed by Gov. Jan Brewer last week is supported by many in the state, which has become a major gateway for drug smuggling and human trafficking from Mexico.

Its passage came amid increasing anger in Arizona about violence, drug smugglers, drop houses and other problems caused by poor border security.

Villar said the search for the suspects involved numerous helicopters from state and federal law enforcement agencies and scores of officers near Interstate 8 and Arizona 84 about 50 miles south of Phoenix.

posted April 30, 2010 10:32 PM         

596 immigrants convicted of crimes nabbed in South

ATLANTA (AP) - Federal agents say they have arrested 596 immigrants with criminal records during a three-day immigration enforcement sweep across the Southeast.
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials said Friday that the operation, dubbed Operation Cross Check, was the largest ever conducted by the agency targeting foreign nationals convicted of crimes. They said the immigrants have already served their sentences and authorities will now seek to deport them.

posted April 30, 2010 11:12 PM         

the other piece is about a FEDERAL sweep which looks to have been fairly effective. as i have read it this law looks to be put away possibly for the reason that it is FEDERAL jurisdiction to deal with immigration and its problems. and they do plenty of putting people away without due cause all by themselves.

that said i ALSO agree they are not doing a good enough job. but again, securing land borders is almost impossible. i guess you never saw the berlin wall or the corridor through east germany(since they aren't there any more - or are they?). pretty daunting...but people managed to get through. they of course were escaping communism, so maybe that's okay with you? mexico is not such a nice place to be a peon either.

as a civilian i have to wonder what a lone officer was doing trying to deal with these characters...here in cali cops rarely even interview traffic offenders without "backup". for safety and legal corroboration's sake.

and pid what about my questions? do you drive a military-plate car? and are you so upset about this that you would wear a microchip and insist everyone do so we could be safe from illegals?

posted April 30, 2010 11:56 PM         

Kat- What does that have to do with anything? How does being associated with the Military constitute a chip in my body? I don't have Military plates because I live in the US. In Germany I had Military plates for two reasons 1) According to the SOFA agreement every US owned vehicle belonging to a Soldier or dependent must have a USAREUR registration (the plate has changed to a regular German plate in Germany). 2) Also according to the SOFA agreement we do not have to pay the high German vehicle registration fees since we belong to the Military.

What our registration also allows us to do is purchase gas on post, which is rationed. A citizen from another country cannot come on post and purchase gas without that registration or a specific pass. This keeps us from having to pay the insanely high taxes on gas that German's have to pay.

Illegal immigration is to me wearing a chip like a ice cream cone is to capital punishment.

As to the lone officer, re-read the article. This state is too vast to have a "posse" cruising the desert. Even our Border Patrol agents often ride alone. Maybe if we had more federal funds and many of our Border Patrol agents weren't moved to the Candadian border we would have more boots on ground.

posted May 01, 2010 12:47 AM         

but again, this is an ancient and worldwide problem. pirates exist on land as well as sea, and that's what some of these guys are. but a lot of them are just trying to find work to send money home to their families too. it's not a simple solution anywhere.

i'm not lobbying for illegal aliens or amnesty or any of that. i'm just saying it is not okay to do basically what the germans did...point the finger at a group and say they're the problem and they need to be removed by whatever means possible.

personally i think san francisco and other political bodies should butt out and tend to their own business.

i asked about your plates because i thought it might be less likely you get stopped in a military vehicle. just curiosity really.

the chip has nothing to do with you or the military but it is a very real possibility that it will be touted as the only solution to the immigrant problem and i don't want to see things go there thanks!

anyway i am tired of arguing about all the bad news. i hope you and yours stay safe and arizona gets itself some more manpower to secure the border areas better. because i don't think this law is the answer.

posted May 09, 2010 05:12 PM         

I totally agree that resources can be drained by too many immigrants (although one must bow down in awe to the absolute gluttony of consumerism of even the citizens of the US, because they are masters of excess). I also think that people in the US tend to suffer from excessive hysteria about this kind of thing.

Also on a side note, not everyone who comes from Europe goes through the legal process. A number of nice, white Germans (yeah, I know a couple of them) and other europeans come to the US and stay illegally.

I find it hilarious that the US goes around bragging about how it's number 1 and the best country etc then people go all hysterical about immigrants crossing the border. Well what the hell do you expect. You have suuuuuch an awwwwwwesome country. If you don't like that other people will try to get in then either build a better border and enforce some really hardcore military around the border....or play down how faaabulous the country is

No, you can't have it both ways.
If there's a country next to you which is worse off, its people will look to the nearest exit for a better life. It's human nature to want a better life when you live in a country with a crap economy.

posted May 09, 2010 06:17 PM         

I look Latino/Hispanic with my light brown/dark tan skin. A lot of Latinos/Hispanics think that I am. That's from the Portuguese,Puerto Rican on my mom's father's side. People in my family tell me that I resemble my my maternal grandfather and my maternal Uncle Dino.

I have been to Tijuana,Mexico. A lot of those people are dark as I am.

Many relatives on my mom's side of the family are Hispanic/Latino. Many of them are as dark as me. I am referring to my mom's stepmother's family. 3 of my mom's halfsiblings are dark as I am.

I also resemble Arabs too. I have been mistaken for an arab.

Portuguese,Spanish tend to have Arab ancestry any way. The Moors and the Berbers. They can also be descendants of Sephardic Jews. They can also be descendants of Greeks,Phoenicians,and Carthaginians.

Phoenicia centered in the north of Canaan.
Carthage was located in Tunis in Northern Africa.

Spaniards already had a rich ethnic heritage before they came to America and mixed with Native Americans. Also they mixed with Black Africans too.

I also want to point out that the term, White,Caucasian,Caucasoid are labels that are used for people of Indo-European and Afro-asiatic ancestry. It's not a term for just Europeans.

I had an English penpal who stayed in USA after her VISA expired. She drove a car without a license.

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted May 09, 2010 07:14 PM         

once more EVERY country has illegal immigrants and many are problems. at this time i do believe it is aimed at hispanics, just as the BNP (british national party) wants to "export" everyone who is not white and therefore according to them not REALLY british (many many brown COMMONWEALTH citizens live in england LEGALLY. these are part of the BNP target group)...but so far NO ONE has ever COMPLETELY solved the immigrant problem. land borders are notoriously difficult to protect but it can be done.

posted May 09, 2010 11:44 PM         

In order to be asked to verify your citizenship/residency, you have to already be involved in a situation with the police regarding another matter. Hispanics come in all colors so the skin tone issue is moot. A tip off? Perhaps the person doesn't speak any english. Is that profiling when the majority of immigrants from south of our borders (legal and illegal) don't speak much or any english? I don't think so.

posted May 10, 2010 12:38 AM         

Um. Mexico?

And naturally you're not going to get on a PLANE OUT OF THE COUNTRY without all of your documentation anyway, are you?
In the US you only have Mexico and Canada next to you, and you didn't need papers in Canada either until very recently lol.

Also: "In order to be asked to verify your citizenship/residency, you have to already be involved in a situation with the police regarding another matter."

Ideally, yes. Realistically, no, it wouldn't always go down like that. If this law were passed without so much hysteria, I would be less inclined to believe the amount of crap would happen. I would think the law would be more followed to the letter. But with things this tense, they can't swing it. There's too much anger and fear directed toward immigrants right now for this law to be expected to operate smoothly. Look at BearArcher's post as an example...I don't trust reactionary laws. They're like band-aids and smack of poor planning. They're passed to give people the illusion of security.

Besides, per the whole whether someone speaks English or not. That's not relevant. There are little old women and men who've been in this country for the past 50 years or more and who don't know a word of English and yet who are citizens. I don't agree with their not knowing the language, but I'm not about to haul them off either.

And as for this:
"Why don't our laws matter just as much as other countries' laws?"