posted April 29, 2010 05:28 AM         

wow

I skim read and what I got was:

There are people in the United States.
Black, white, secular..
Christian Christian Christian
O'bomber
Obama
Muslim
Christian United States
Secular
Christian
Secular
Christian
Secular

LOL

Is it wrong that this is turning me on?
There's just something HOT about men fighting about politics!

posted April 29, 2010 08:29 AM         

America is not merely a geographical location on a world map.

America is not merely a system of government and economics.

PEOPLE settled America, formed the government, settled on an economic system and developed a set of customs, traditions and mores.

The American people are not a reflection of America the nation.

America the nation, is a reflection of the American people.

AND

The American people are overwhelmingly Christian, who make America what it is...NOT the other way around.

America, a Christian nation.

posted April 29, 2010 01:47 PM         

by Jim Walker
Originated: 11 Apr. 1997
Additions: 26 Dec. 2004

Many Religious Right activists have attempted to rewrite history by asserting that the United States government derived from Christian foundations, that our Founding Fathers originally aimed for a Christian nation. This idea simply does not hold to the historical evidence.

Of course many Americans did practice Christianity, but so also did many believe in deistic philosophy. Indeed, most of our influential Founding Fathers, although they respected the rights of other religionists, held to deism and Freemasonry tenets rather than to Christianity.

The U.S. Constitution

The United States Constitution serves as the law of the land for America and indicates the intent of our Founding Fathers. The Constitution forms a secular document, and nowhere does it appeal to God, Christianity, Jesus, or any supreme being. (For those who think the date of the Constitution contradicts the last sentence, see note 1 at the end.) The U.S. government derives from people (not God), as it clearly states in the preamble: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union...." The omission of God in the Constitution did not come out of forgetfulness, but rather out of the Founding Fathers purposeful intentions to keep government separate from religion.

Although the Constitution does not include the phrase "Separation of Church & State," neither does it say "Freedom of religion." However, the Constitution implies both in the 1st Amendment. As to our freedoms, the 1st Amendment provides exclusionary wording:

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. [bold caps, mine]

Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a "wall of separation between church and State." Madison had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." There existed little controversy about this interpretation from our Founding Fathers.

If religionists better understood the concept of separation of Church & State, they would realize that the wall of separation actually protects their religion. Our secular government allows the free expression of religion and non religion. Today, religions flourish in America; we have more churches than Seven-Elevens.

Although many secular and atheist groups fight for the wall of separation, this does not mean that they wish to lawfully eliminate religion from society. On the contrary, you will find no secular or atheist group attempting to ban Christianity, or any other religion from American society. Keeping religion separate allows atheists and religionists alike, to practice their belief systems, regardless how ridiculous they may seem, without government intervention.

The Declaration of Independence

Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)

However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states.

Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets and believers, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. It represents a historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our government.

Of course the Declaration stands as a great political document. Its author aimed at a future government designed and upheld by people and not based on a superstitious god or religious monarchy. It observed that all men "are created equal" meaning that we all get born with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men." Please note that the Declaration says nothing about our rights secured by Christianity. It bears repeating: "Governments are instituted among men."

The pursuit of happiness does not mean a guarantee of happiness, only that we have the freedom to pursue it. Our Law of the Land incorporates this freedom of pursuit in the Constitution. We can believe or not believe as we wish. We may succeed or fail in our pursuit, but our Constitution (and not the Declaration) protects our unalienable rights in our attempt at happiness.

Moreover, the mentioning of God in the Declaration does not describe the personal God of Christianity. Thomas Jefferson who held deist beliefs, wrote the majority of the Declaration. The Declaration describes "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." This nature's view of God agrees with deist philosophy and might even appeal to those of pantheistical beliefs, but any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail for this reason alone.

The Treaty of Tripoli

Unlike most governments of the past, the American Founding Fathers set up a government divorced from any religion. Their establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves of its origin; they knew this as a ubiquitous unspoken given. However, as the United States delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of the U.S. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the U.S. goverenment to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." [bold text, mine]

Click here to see the actual article 11 of the Treaty

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Joel Barlow wrote the original English version of the treaty, including Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States in 1797 that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all U.S. Treaties do (see the Constitution, Article VI, Sect.2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.") [Bold text, mine]

Although the Treaty of Tripoli under agreement only lasted a few years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.

Common Law

According to the Constitution's 7th Amendment: "In suits at common law. . . the right of trial by jury shall be preserved; and no fact, tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States than according to the rules of the common law."

Here, many Christians believe that common law came from Christian foundations and therefore the Constitution derives from it. They use various quotes from Supreme Court Justices proclaiming that Christianity came as part of the laws of England, and therefore from its common law heritage.

But one of our principle Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, elaborated about the history of common law in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814:

"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."

". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

In the same letter, Jefferson examined how the error spread about Christianity and common law. Jefferson realized that a misinterpretation had occurred with a Latin term by Prisot, "ancien scripture", in reference to common law history. The term meant "ancient scripture" but people had incorrectly interpreted it to mean "Holy Scripture," thus spreading the myth that common law came from the Bible. Jefferson writes:

"And Blackstone repeats, in the words of Sir Matthew Hale, that 'Christianity is part of the laws of England,' citing Ventris and Strange ubi surpa. 4. Blackst. 59. Lord Mansfield qualifies it a little by saying that 'The essential principles of revealed religion are part of the common law." In the case of the Chamberlain of London v. Evans, 1767. But he cites no authority, and leaves us at our peril to find out what, in the opinion of the judge, and according to the measure of his foot or his faith, are those essential principles of revealed religion obligatory on us as a part of the common law."
Thus we find this string of authorities, when examined to the beginning, all hanging on the same hook, a perverted expression of Priscot's, or on one another, or nobody."

The Encyclopedia Britannica, also describes the Saxon origin and adds: "The nature of the new common law was at first much influenced by the principles of Roman law, but later it developed more and more along independent lines." Also prominent among the characteristics that derived out of common law include the institution of the jury, and the right to speedy trial.

For another article on this subject visit The Early America Review: http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Note 1: The end of the Constitution records the year of its ratification, "the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven." Although, indeed, it uses the word "Lord", it does not refer to Jesus but rather to the dating method. Incredibly, some Christians attempt to use this as justification for a Christian derived Constitution. The term simply conveys a written English form of the Latin, Anno Domini (AD), which means the year of our Lord (no, it does not mean After Death). This scripted form served as a common way of dating in the 1700s. The Constitution also uses many pagan words such as January (from the two-headed Roman god, Janus), and Sunday (from the word Sunne, which refers to the Saxon Sun god). Can you imagine the ludicrous position of someone trying to argue for the justification of a pagan god based Constitution? The same goes to any Christian who attempts to use a dating convention as an argument against the Constitution's secular nature, and can only paint himself as naive, or worse, as dishonest and deceiving. (For a satire on using calendar words to support pagan Gods, see The United States: A Country founded on paganism.)
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

posted April 29, 2010 01:59 PM         

Let me be clear. Anyone who believes that the United States of America is a Christian nation is mistaken. In fact, our nation was founded on the premise that a state church was unconstitutional. The founders were maintaining the spirit of those religious refugees who came to North America seeking religious freedom. If we were ever to adopt an official or single brand of religion, the entire democratic experiment will have failed miserably. We are not a theocracy. We are a nation founded on diversity of belief.

I imagine that many will argue that our founders were devout Christians, or that because an overwhelming majority of U.S. citizens are Christians, so is the nation. Wrong again.

But, history be damned. Many members of the Texas State Board of Education (SBOE) won't be deterred in their quest to establish once and for all that the United States of America is, indeed, a theocracy. In fact they are writing it into social studies textbooks right under our noses, just as they have attempted to write an abstinence-only curriculum into health textbooks and new-earth creationism into science textbooks. The next round of debates occur in Austin on March 10-12.

SBOE member Gail Lowe has said:

Many of us recognize that Judeo-Christian principles were the basis of our country and that many of our founding documents had a basis in Scripture. As we try to promote a better understanding of the Constitution, federalism, the separation of the branches of government, the basic rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, I think it will become evident to students that the founders had a religious motivation.

And SBOE member, Don McElroy said recently:

Christianity has had a deep impact on our system. The men who wrote the Constitution were Christians who knew the Bible.

Let's talk about one of those men, Thomas Jefferson, the primary author of the Declaration of Independence and proponent of the Bill of Rights. Jefferson said, "I never told my own religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed." While in office as president, he published The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (still in print as The Jefferson Bible by Beacon Press), in which he literally took scissors and razors to the Christian gospels and cut out all references to miracles, healings, the virgin birth, angels, prophecy, the trinity, divinity, or resurrection.

What's more he was incredibly critical of the Christianity practiced in his day. He called the trinity a doctrine of "metaphysical insanity" and "greek arithmetic." He called John Calvin a "malignant demon." Of these traditions he said, "They are mere usurpers of the Christian name, teaching a counter-religion made up of the deliria of crazy imaginations," He spoke of the, quote, "hocus pocus of a God like another Cerberus with one body and three heads."

He also spoke sharply about religious fanaticism, especially that of women:

In our Richmond there is much fanaticism, but chiefly among the women. They have their night meetings and praying parties, where, attended by their priests, and sometimes by a henpecked husband, they pour forth the effusions of their love to Jesus, in terms as amatory and carnal, as their modesty would permit them to use to a mere earthly lover.

These hardly sound like the words of a man who wanted the U.S. to be a Christian nation. Jefferson was no saint. None of the founders were. But neither were he or others ever building a United States of Christians. They were truly building a nation of freedom and equality, where diversity and pluralism were strengths.

They held several truths to be "self-evident," not evident through the framework of any given religion. These are "that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

You can read more about our founders intentions and the SBOE's attempt to rewrite them in last week's New York Times Magazine article:

How Christian Were the Founders? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magazine/14texbooks-t.html

http://blogs.chron.com/keepthefaith/2010/02/we_are_not_a_christian_nation.html

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted April 29, 2010 02:26 PM         

I’ve noticed that two topics seem to get more responses than anything else: Ron Paul and religion. I’m not ready for Part 2 of my RP tirade, so we’ll go back to the latter.

It seems that whenever I write anything even moderately anti-religion, or even not at all anti-religion but rather anti-you-acting-like-a-jerk-about-your-religion, I get comments and email that either say I’m a terrible person and that someone is praying for me, or I should leave America because America is a Christian nation. How terrible I am is pretty debatable and I can’t really say these people aren’t praying for me (though I suspect they aren’t), but I can say with absolute certainty that America is not a Christian nation.

Oh sure, it’s citizenry is predominantly Christian and I can count on one hand the number of non-Judeo-Christians in Washington, but that just means that the American people are Christian. That’s obvious. America itself, however, is not. People have later attempted to turn it into one, I’ll agree, but the United States of America is not founded on the Christian religion.

Myth: How can you say that? It totally is!

Fact: No, it’s not. Washington said it himself in the Treaty of Tripoli, which was ratified by the Senate under then-president John Adams: “the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.” Unless you think this was a trick or a lie, in which case I’m not sure what to tell you.

Myth: Right, but, what about the pledge? It says “one nation under God”!

Fact: It didn’t always. In fact it wasn’t until the 1950s that the Knights of Columbus decided that “under God” should be a part of the pledge, and it wasn’t until 1954 that the words were officially changed to include them. For the first 62 years of its existence, there was no God in the pledge.

Myth: Okay, fine, but our money DEFINITELY says “in god we trust”. It’s the national motto, you can’t deny that!

Fact: I can’t deny that it’s on our coins and bills or that it’s the current national motto, but again this wasn’t always the case. The phrase didn’t start appearing on money until the Civil War, and it wasn’t until the 1930s that the phrase was on money nationally. As for our motto, up until 1956 it was e pluribus unum: from many, one. Interesting that it was changed from a declaration of unity to one of separation.

Myth: Well look on your calendar. I don’t see Darwin’s birthday or Ramadan as federal holidays. Christmas and Easter are, though!

Fact: Once again, it is now but it didn’t used to be. Christmas wasn’t declared a federal holiday until 1870. For the first nearly 100 years of the republic the birth and resurrection of Jesus were not considered federal holidays. Interestingly enough, prior to that, many Christians criticized it as the Bible never instructs followers to celebrate Christ’s birth and found the holiday too commercialized. So I suppose you could say that’s why it wasn’t designated a holiday initially, but that’s pushing it.

Myth: Yeah, yeah, but the important thing is our LAWS. They’re based on Christian laws like the 10 Commandments!

Fact: I have a feeling that most people who make this claim have not read either the Constitution or the Bible. Exodus 20:2-17 from whence the commandments come, numbering roughly 14 but varyingly grouped together to make it the more attractive 10, outlines a whole lot of things, but few are actually in American lawbooks. We have no laws against worshiping other gods, against graven images, mandating keeping the Sabbath holy, against coveting, legislating honoring your mother and father, or against adultery. In the whole list, we only have laws about murdering, stealing, and bearing false witness, none of which are exactly unique to the Decalogue.

Myth: But God’s in the Constitution!

Fact: Again, read the thing. No he’s not. The only mentioning of any deity is “their creator” in the Declaration which was intentionally worded so as to refer to the ambiguous cause of our being rather than “God” (basically saying “we’re born with them”), and “nature’s god” in the Constitution in a rather throwaway passage. Aside from that, God is not anywhere to be found. So if his laws aren’t used and he’s never mentioned by name, I think the conclusion is obvious.

Myth: No, I mean the founders were Christians, so whatever they wrote was inspired by God!

Fact: This is a big ol’ can of worms, but no matter how you slice it the majority of the men who founded this nation were at least deists, if not agnostics and a few atheists. Washington may have gone to church periodically, but he wasn’t exactly devout and hardly talked of his beliefs. Jefferson was particularly harsh against Christianity, as were others such as Adams and Franklin. Additionally they took much of their inspiration from secularists philosophers, not the devout.

Myth: That’s BS left-wing propaganda! They WERE Christians!

Fact: You know what? Let’s say you’re right. Every one was a Christian. That doesn’t negate their obvious efforts to keep Christianity out of the nation’s formation. God is not mentioned and the laws are not built around Christian principles. There are laws which coincide with those of Christianity, but generally only in cases where they also coincide with every other major religion (they all have anti-murder and anti-theft laws, for example). The founding fathers went out of their way to keep America secular, allowing all to practice as they want with neither the government interfering in worship or worship interfering in government.

Myth: Shut up, the 1st Amendment was to keep government out of church, not church out of government!

Fact: That’s semantical flim-flam at best and you know it. Keeping the government out of the church is the same as keeping the church out of government.

Myth: Nuh-uh!

Fact: Yuh-huh. Let’s say Church A has a law that Church B does not. The government cannot enact Church A’s law because that would be encroaching upon Church B’s freedom of worship. Thus in order to protect Church B, Church A’s law cannot be put on the books. The only way to keep the government out of religion is to keep religion out of government. It’s a wall between them, as Jefferson wrote, not a one-way tunnel.

Myth: But that would mean that no laws could be made that disagree with any religion, so we’d have no laws at all!

Fact: Not quite. It means the laws must be made independently of religion. You don’t have to be a Bible-thumper to know murder and slavery are wrong, for example (although it was largely the religious who fought against civil rights advancements…), and as long as a law is made for secular reasons it is not “an establishment of religion”. That’s why sodomy laws had to go but perjury’s still around, or why there are laws against stealing but not saying God’s name in vain.

Myth: Right… but… hgnkgnl…

Fact: I thought so.

So you see, this is not a country founded upon the Bible and its teachings, and the nation’s founders would likely be mighty peeved to hear of George Bush saying God chose him to be president and hearing of the massive influence the likes of James Dobson have over public policy.

If anyone out there would like to continue trying to prove me wrong, go for it. I’ve got no problems making this little Q&A session longer.
http://hanlonsrazor.wordpress.com/2007/11/15/lets-get-this-straight-america-is-not-a-christian-nation/

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

posted April 30, 2010 12:43 PM         

America IS a Christian nation and 83% of Americans, who are Christians, make America a Christian nation.

Only screeching, whining, shrieking, simpering blowhard aethiest leftists, who represent at most 17% of the American population...disagree.

posted April 30, 2010 06:05 PM         

You, Glaucus and the "Bunkster O'Bomber" lost the argument before it started and you lost it on the facts.

posted May 01, 2010 04:58 AM         

That figure comes from the "old math" katatonic.

"The whole is equal to the sum of it's parts."

God only knows what they're teaching now...if anything.

Gee, you would need to question the Texas school board about that textbook issue.

posted May 03, 2010 09:33 AM         

It took a little digging but I found a study that supports the 83% that was posted numerous times. In fact I found a higher [84%] figure.

The only problem is that figure is from *1998.*edit actually 1996!

The most current figures and from numerous sources -wiki, pew, etc. ranges in the 70's

If the category is registered voters that number is 71.7%

The point that Glaucus made is correct both in ideology and fact. As a Nation the U.S. is secular, and Non religious. It's people are nearly 3/4 Christian.
Point of fact in the Catholic Church, secular clergy are religious ministers such as deacons and priests, who do not belong to a religious order. So, a Secular Nation not founded on christianity.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

The largest growth is in Non-religious Americans. I have heard 20% thrown around, so I went looking.
The humanist movement is gaining ground, and U.S. News and World Report has a recent article .

quote:

---

....The phenomenon is hardly limited to the elite confines of Harvard Square. In fact, Epstein and the nonreligious students he leads are part of the fastest-growing demographic on the American religious landscape: those who claim no religion whatsoever.
....According to a comprehensive national survey released this week by the Program on Public Values at Trinity College, those identifying with no religious tradition, or as atheists or agnostics, account for 15 percent of the population, up from about 8 percent in 1990. "No religion" Americans are the only religious demographic that's growing in every single state.

---

posted May 03, 2010 11:50 AM         

Or
Most Americans are Christians

Funny, the polls Node cites are not to be found on the 1st or 2nd page of search results.

Ummm, you will excuse me Node...but Catholics were no where to be found among the Founders of the United States.

In fact people were coming to America to flee the British version of the Catholic Church which was the official British religion...the English Anglican Church.

Now, do your homework and give us a couple of paragraphs on why an English King broke off from the Roman Catholic Church...and established it's twin under a different name.

While you're about that, how about doing a little research and tell us WHY the Founders wanted no part of a State Religion.

posted May 03, 2010 02:24 PM         

They did not write the 1st Amendment to protect government from religion.

The Founders realized a political party in power in the Congress and Executive Branch might attempt to make A religion the official State religion OR might attempt to persecute religious observance, practices or worship.

In fact, the States refused to ratify the Constitution until additional safeguards to liberty..including religious liberty were written into the Constitution. We call these 1st 10 Amendments "The Bill of Rights".

Now, you can argue with me on this subject until you're blue in the face but facts are facts.

As I've stated before, the Founders realized no one could be compelled to "BELIEVE" anything, including belief in Christianity.

You will find this realization enshrined in the Federalist Papers.

Federalist No. 1
For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword.
PUBLIUS.

posted May 03, 2010 02:24 PM         

They did not write the 1st Amendment to protect government from religion.

The Founders realized a political party in power in the Congress and Executive Branch might attempt to make A religion the official State religion OR might attempt to persecute religious observance, practices or worship.

In fact, the States refused to ratify the Constitution until additional safeguards to liberty..including religious liberty were written into the Constitution. We call these 1st 10 Amendments "The Bill of Rights".

Now, you can argue with me on this subject until you're blue in the face but facts are facts.

As I've stated before, the Founders realized no one could be compelled to "BELIEVE" anything, including belief in Christianity.

You will find this realization enshrined in the Federalist Papers.

Federalist No. 1
For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword.
PUBLIUS.

posted May 03, 2010 06:38 PM         

quote:

---

Now, you can argue with me on this subject until you're blue in the face but facts are facts.

---

posted May 03, 2010 07:52 PM         

you obviously not only did not read my post or open the link.

by the way have you posted the current figure?
Not that it matters, as AG is staying on point.
I just get irritated when you are asked to produce a link and don't. I post one for you that proves the figure is _14 yrs outdated.

Why would I use the 83% to start the search when it was the answer over over Ten years ago?

And who said catholics were founders? Not me.

But this is all an attempt to confuse the issue; back to point:
AG

quote:

---

Yes, the facts are indeed facts, and as there is no compulsion to be a Christian in our nation it can hardly be even imagined that our country is "Christian." We have complete freedom FROM religion, which would not be the case if this nation belonged to one religion exclusively.

---

posted May 03, 2010 09:46 PM         

People choose to believe or not believe and no amount of coercion can make anyone believe anything. You can compel the appearance of belief but not belief itself.

In America, 83% choose to be Christians.

posted May 06, 2010 02:32 PM         

Let me just say, however, that there have been other religions and others in general who do not want to practice religion at all. That is in the constitution, that freedom to practice or not.
But again, THAT was written BY Christians. And the framework of the US has been by and large Christian in its leanings.
The problem is that this is kind of outdated because again, there are now many different people of many different beliefs in this country.

The religious stuff needs to take a back seat in my opinion. We don't need it.
I actually do not see the government as secular in the US. I see its Christian roots peeking out, hanging like a red slip that hangs too low from a dress. It kind of bugs me. They say there is a separation from church and state, but come on...that's just lip service. There are a lot of people in power who are heavily religious and who play upon that in the media as well. So really, how can it be said that there's a separation when even mainstream 'journalism' continues to either side with the Christian leanings or just rebels from it and doesn't simply state the facts? Neither side does.