Lindaland
  Global Unity 2.0
  Stop Coddling the Rich ... (Page 6)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
This topic is 7 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Stop Coddling the Rich ...
Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 16259
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 26, 2012 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, you mentioned Mitt. Mitt's income is predominetly dividend-based specifically. As far as capital gains in general is concerned, we don't want high capital gains tax. We want to encourage investing, not stifle it.

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 26, 2012 06:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
like i said, progressive related to profits made, perfectly fine. as to mitt, he apparently thinks he really paid FORTY percent tax...15 to the govt, 15 in a donation to the mormon church (tax deductible) and another 10% for good luck as far as i can tell...

people who have millions to invest can pay a fair share of their profits from same. sorry that only leaves 700k out of a million, but it is 700K more than they had before, and only 150K more than they pay now... surely no one is going to throw away the baby for the sake of the bathwater. as been pointed out over and over again, investors liked the US just fine when the rates were WAY higher.

IP: Logged

AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 5846
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 26, 2012 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://news.yahoo.com/why-investment-income-taxed-less-wages-200000141.html

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 16259
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 26, 2012 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A tithe is 10 percent, and that is what Mitt paid.

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 27, 2012 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
a tithe is not taxes! and 15+ 15 does not equal 40~

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 16259
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 27, 2012 12:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I never said a tithe was a tax. I was merely correcting your leftist math.

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 27, 2012 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what are you talking about randall? what do tithes have to do with the fact that mitt reckons his 15% tax + 15%donation to the mormons brings his tax burden for the year to 40%?

if he donated 15% to the mormons then he did not give them 10% which would have been a tithe. though one can make a tithe whatever they like of course.

it is not ME who makes 15+15=40, but mitt. which no one i know would call "leftist" math whatever that is. it is INCORRECT math, period. and not calculated by anyone but mitt himself.

and since i am not a leftist it has nothing to do with me either.

so what DOES it refer to?? why bring tithes into it? just to confuse the issue? you certainly succeeded THERE.

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 27, 2012 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ALL money is taxed multiple times. every time it changes hands, as someone recently pointed out. the money i receive was taxed before it was given to me, and will be taxed again when i spend it, as well as when i do my return. so why again should extremely rich people get a hand out when they don't think i should?

as linda and others have pointed out, money is worth nothing if not in circulation. why on earth would rich people stop circulating their money - don't you think they understand this principle better than those with less? john rockefeller (publicly at least) CREDITED his success with tithing BEFORE he hit the big time, and continued to do so all his days. of course those tithes are tax deductible, which sweetens the loss, but the whole point of tithing is what goes around comes around, never mind the motive!

now back in the 50s, with a top tax rate of 91%, people STILL invested in their companies and created jobs. we are talking about peanuts compared to that.

the problem is one of perception, isn't it? NOW that people are used to paying next to nothing on capital gains, they RESENT the feeling that they have to GIVE UP something they have only had for a few years.

however i actually think it is those who are used to getting bribed to legislate in their favour who are really scared to ask sugar daddy anything they IMAGINE will rouse his disapproval.

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 16259
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 12:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You look, quack, and walk like a duck. If you're not far left on the political spectrum, you sure do emulate it well. YOU are the one who brought up tithing. Corporate dividends being taxed twice is simple concept for most of us to understand. It doesn't use leftist math, though.

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 01:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i think randall that you know rather more ducks than leftists, if you think i am the latter! of course i understand that the pundits and propagandists call anything that moves "leftists" these days, so i don't blame you for your confusion and it would be silly of me to be offended even though i am sure that is your intent.

did you know that roosevelt called hoover a socialist, and then all the republicans who ran against roosevelt called HIM one? it's been going on for a long time hasn't it? might be time for a fresh approach!

the math is not MINE, but romney's, and the aim to make it sound like because he DONATES to tax deductible causes he is paying more tax than he is. and he cannot add 15+15 (which equals 30, not 40) so how can he be trusted to do national math?

and please, do show me where i brought tithing into it?

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 4961
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The legitimate purpose of taxation is to fund the Constitutional responsibilities of government.

Income redistribution is neither a legitimate purpose of government or a legitimate purpose of taxation.

The common purpose and theme of all Socialists...Communists of all stripes and Progressives IS redistribution of income..either through taxation or confiscation.

So, when we hear people screeching and shrieking for income to be taken from those who earned it...to be redistributed to others who didn't earn it, all the while asserting they're not Socialists...we know they're either delusional or lying.

JANUARY 27, 2012
The Buffett Ruse
Obama's ploy means the highest capital gains tax rate since 1978

Remember the moment in 2008 when Charlie Gibson of ABC News asked Senator Barack Obama why he would support raising the capital gains tax even though "revenues from the tax increased" when the rate fell? Mr. Obama's famous reply: "I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness." Well, we were warned.

Here we are four years later, and President Obama on Tuesday night linked the term "fair" to U.S. tax and economic policy seven times. The U.S. economy is still hobbling out of recession, real family incomes are falling and 14 million Americans are unemployed, but Mr. Obama declared that his top priority is not to reform the tax code to promote growth and job creation. His overriding goal is redistributing income.

Mr. Obama endorsed the political ruse he calls the Buffett rule, which asserts as a matter of moral principle that millionaires should not pay a lower tax rate than middle-class wage earners. Specifically, Mr. Obama is proposing that anyone earning more than $1 million pay at least 30% of that income to Uncle Barack.

The White House says that if a millionaire household's effective tax rate falls below 30%, it would have to pay a surcharge—in essence a new Super Alternative Minimum Tax—to bring the tax liability to 30%. For those facing this new Super AMT, all deductions and exemptions would be eliminated except for charity.

The Buffett rule is rooted in the fairy tale that taxes on the wealthy are lower than on the middle class. In fact, the Congressional Budget Office notes that the effective income tax rate of the richest 1% is about 29.5% when including all federal taxes such as the distribution of corporate taxes, or about twice the 15.1% paid by middle-class families.

This is because wealthy tax filers make most of their income from investments. Such income is taxed once at the corporate rate of 35% and again when it is passed through to the individual as a capital gain or dividend at 15%, for a highest marginal tax rate of about 44.75%.

This double taxation is one reason the U.S. has long had a differential tax rate for capital gains. Another reason is because while taxpayers must pay taxes on their gains, they aren't allowed to deduct capital losses (beyond $3,000 a year) except against gains in the current year. Capital gains also aren't indexed for inflation, so a lower rate is intended to offset the effect of inflated gains.

One implication of the Buffett rule is that all millionaire investment income would be taxed at the shareholder level at a minimum rate of 30%, up from 15% today. The tax rate on investment income from corporations would rise to 54.5% from 44.75%, a punitive tax on start-up or expanding businesses.

The new 30% capital gains rate would be the developed world's third highest behind only Denmark and Chile, according to the American Council for Capital Formation. This is on top of the 35% corporate rate that is already the second highest rate in the world after Japan. That giant sucking sound you hear come January 2013 would be hundreds of billions of investment dollars fleeing to China, India, Korea and other U.S. competitors. Lower capital investment in the U.S. means less wage growth, and so the people hurt most by this tax hike would be workers, according to a study by the Institute for Research on the Economics of Taxation.

Mr. Obama conceded on Tuesday that the high U.S. corporate tax is an economic loser. Yet he misses the crucial point that business owners assess the combined corporate and capital gains tax on those business profits. Lowering the corporate tax rate makes the U.S. more competitive, but the tax change is self-defeating if it is combined with an even larger rise in investment income taxes on capital gains and dividends.

Mr. Obama isn't setting himself apart merely from conservatives with this Buffett ploy. He is rejecting 35 years of bipartisan tax policy that began with the passage of the Steiger Amendment by a Democratic Congress that cut the capital-gains rate to 28% from 35% in 1978.

As the nearby chart shows, the rate has never since risen above 28%, and the last time it moved that high was in 1986 as part of the Reagan-Rostenkowski tax reform that also cut the top marginal income tax rate to 28% from 50%. With income-tax rates so low, a differential was arguably less necessary—though it's worth noting that capital gains revenues fell dramatically after that rate increase.

A decade later Bill Clinton agreed to cut the rate back to 20% as part of the balanced-budget deal with Newt Gingrich. Capital gains revenues soared, helping to balance the federal budget. Nearly every study estimates that the revenue-maximizing tax rate from the capital gains tax is between 15% and 28%. Doug Holtz-Eakin, the former director of the Congressional Budget Office, says that a 30% tax rate "is almost surely above the rate that maximizes tax revenues." So it's likely the Buffett trick would lose revenue for the government.

Yet in a time of the highest deficits since World War II, Mr. Obama wants to double the capital gains tax rate even as he raises the top income-tax rate to 42% or so. Mr. Obama really is taking us back to the worst habits of the 1970s. And not because he thinks higher rates will raise revenue, but merely so he can score points against Mitt Romney and stick it to the successful.

This isn't tax fairness. It's tax folly.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203806504577183250095478594.h tml?mod=rss_opinion_main

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
who said anything about redistributing wealth? i'm talking about paying one's due, and those who make more not only have more to spare but MAKE MORE FROM the services the taxes pay for. AND they are paying LESS tax than the AVERAGE. there is nothing socialist about that.

in the meantime 15+15 does not equal 40 and mitt classifying his church donations as taxes is a ruse to make him "look good" in the eyes of people who APPARENTLY think he gets away with more than his fair share.

why is it you two can't discuss something without bringing labels into it? the fact that i consider capital gains to be income )(many people live off them!) doesn't alter the fact that mitt is a greaseball that slides in every direction and can't add.

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
as to YOUR shrieking and whining, as the graph shows, the low rate you don't want touched was the beginning of the undercutting of the economy.

because you are so paranoid that obama is trying to "redistribute" the wealth you don't see what the graph says in front of you...that while it is STRICTLY true that this would be the highest since the 70s it is very SLIGHTLY higher than what reagan brought in, and the low GW rates coincided with, as i said, the undercutting of the economy.

these tax breaks were "temporary", remember?

and as i pointed out above, ALL money is TAXED EVERY TIME IT MOVES. so doubling up the corporate tax taken BEFORE the gains are passed on to the shareholder, is just that - DOUBLESPEAK.

if i work for someone at walmart, the money i receive has already been taxed, will be taxed when i spend it and at tax time i will still pay taxes on it. you are talking about two different stages as if they were one.

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
and since i have been compared to a duck let me say, you two remind me of the lady elephants in dumbo when the mouse entered the room. the very thought of socialist ideas sends you toppling over your own feet. newsflash: socialism has been part of the mix here for centuries! get over it. we are not going to become the ussr even without your palpitations.

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 4961
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"who said anything about redistributing wealth?"..katatonic

Thank you so much for raising your hand when I talk about Socialists!

" i'm talking about paying one's due, and those who make more not only have more to spare"...katatonic

Socialist speak for..."I can spend your money better than you can"!

"AND they (the rich) are paying LESS tax than the AVERAGE. there is nothing socialist about that."...katatonic

Is this an example of the "common lie", a "whopper lie" or the "BIG LIE"?

Which ever, it is a lie and does nothing to advance your argument or your credibility.

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
you have called me socialist, leftist, plenty of times, yes you often do it in such a way as to be able to say i "raised my hand". this time you let randall do it and you chimed in.

and your quote of what i said shows up your technique beautifully(leaving out half of it to make your point) - this is called contextual fibbing.

the fact that 15% of mitt's money is more than 30% of mine does not mean he is paying more than his fair share. since when does a little kiddie with a dollar allowance pay as much as his dad who earns hundreds and uses them to call the shots around the house?

when your kids were doing their first jobs did you expect them to contribute an equal amount to the family pot? or did you pay more of the expenses because YOU HAD MORE TO SPEND?

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i did not even suggest that i can spend his money better than he can. for what he has received from the govt pot, and it is plenty, he can bloody well put a reasonable amount back in. after all MY taxes cover his arse in numerous ways.

the truth is that mitt et al think they can spend MY money but THEIRS is too good for the use of others.

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 16259
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I could go back to your post where you brought up tithing and quote it, but why bother? It's not my job to remind you of the things you say. Tithing is 10 percent. I don't know where you get 15 pecent from; nor do I know where you get the supposed 40 percent from. After Mitt released his tax returns, it was shown where he paid slightly under 15 percent in income tax, another 10 percent to the LDS Church, and additional charitable contributions. I called you a leftist not a Socialist (meaning you are on the left side of the political spectrum), because neither a moderate nor a right-winger would say the things you do. So, you are actually claiming to be on the right of the spectrum? Really? I guess if you go so far on the left, you could end up on the right.

IP: Logged

katatonic
Knowflake

Posts: 7635
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 04:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
so you completely bypassed the whole point of my post. never mind. the 10% was NOT a tithe, but a missing piece in romney's extremely strange math. as per usual because i brought it up you immediately jump to the conclusion that i am pushing some "leftist" point of view.

there is no point in going any further with it. just because i am not a socialist does not mean i am claiming to be a conservative either. as it happens, i do not identify with any party or "side of the spectrum" as you put it. there are many here among us, who know the parties are a joke, to paraphrase an oldish song.

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 4961
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"the fact that 15% of mitt's money is more than 30% of mine does not mean he is paying more than his fair share."

Romney is paying more than his fair share of taxes. A lot more in fact.

But, that's not what I called you on. You said:

""AND they (the rich) are paying LESS tax than the AVERAGE."

That's false either way you look at it. The rich pay more in absolute dollars in taxes and they also pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes.

In fact, figures show the top 1% of earners pay an average of approximately 29% net while average income earners pay about 15% net.

Apparently you didn't read the article I posted or you wouldn't be confused about these facts.

"the Congressional Budget Office notes that the effective income tax rate of the richest 1% is about 29.5% when including all federal taxes such as the distribution of corporate taxes, or about twice the 15.1% paid by middle-class families."

No contextual fibbing here.

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 16259
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You don't have to be an official member of a political party to be of a ceratin ideology.

IP: Logged

AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 5846
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 06:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
"the Congressional Budget Office notes that the effective income tax rate of the richest 1% is about 29.5% when including all federal taxes such as the distribution of corporate taxes, or about twice the 15.1% paid by middle-class families."

But there is a context listed there. "When including all federal taxes such as the distribution of corporate taxes." If you don't include those their effective rate is about 22%.

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 4961
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted January 28, 2012 10:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You still lose acoustic...even if we accept your statement that the rich pay 22%....since the middle class pays about 15%!

You remind me of the speeder who went to court with a speeding ticket alleging he was doing 95mph in a 65mph zone. The speeder objects to the ticket on the grounds he was only going 85mph in that 65mph zone.

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 4961
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted February 17, 2012 09:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread began with accolades for Warren Buffett for demanding an income tax increase for the rich. Wonderful, until it was revealed that Warren Buffett's income isn't subject to "income taxes" but rather to the lower tax rate for "Capital Gains" taxes from which Buffett receives his "income".

So, while Buffett was demanding higher income tax rate increases for the rich, he knew none of those tax increases were going to hit him personally.

Buffett, in a word, is a "hypocrite" and in another word, a "blowhard" of the "do as I say, not as I do" variety.

Later, it was revealed that Buffett...far from being the "Oracle of Omaha" for his stock picks was in fact trading on insider information through his contacts with US government officials, including congressional members who were talking to bankers about bailing them out with TARP funds and discussing whom was going to get billions in bailout funds and whom was not. One doesn't need to be an Oracle when their friends in government are feeding them the blueprint of which banks are going to get billions in government bailout money which will skyrocket their stock share prices. Buffett wasn't only talking to congressional members about TARP funds he was also advising them as to which banks and financial institutions to throw taxpayer money at.

Any low grade moron could take that information and buy into banks and financial institutions which had been chosen as urged by Buffett to prosper at taxpayer expense...and prosper financially himself.

No Oracle needed at all. Just a well connected insider, trading on information passed to him by congressional members which was not available to other investors.

This is the very essence of political and financial corruption between businessmen/businesswomen and the federal government. This is not "Capitalism" in any guise because the element of risking private capital to make a return on investment is not in any way present, not for the banks and financial institutions which are getting bailed out and not for private investors like the hypocrite Warren Buffett who knows which banks are going to get bailed out and with how much taxpayer money they're going to get.

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 4961
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted February 17, 2012 10:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some here figure I'm picking on Warren Buffett because...he's a demoscat and...because he's a backer, financer and supporter of Barack Hussein O'Bomber.

But, that's not it..at all.

I believe ardently in the free market Capitalist economic system and I oppose any activities which undermine it's basic principles.

Financial profits without risking personal capital in the market place stands Capitalism on it's ear and it's not Capitalism at all. It's like having "next weeks" copy of the Wall Street Journal or Investors Business Daily stock price pages, seeing in advance which stocks are going up and by how much.

This is what's happened in TARP and it happened again in the $787 BILLION so called Stimulus Plan.

Nor is this an attack on demoscats and a whitewash of republicans.

Congressional members of both parties..and their staff members invested money based on insider information not available to the general public. Congress exempted themselves from legal ramifications of their own "insider trading".

There's only one way for voters to deal with crooks and connivers in congress who have made themselve immune from the penalties of what would be violations of law for the rest of us.

Throw them all out of Congress and make sure they never get back anywhere near the levers of power in Washington.

I'm ready to wage a voting war against any republican who was so crass and corrupt as to break the trust of the American people for personal profit.

The only question I have in my mind is...are you Democrats ready and willing to do the same with your corrupt congressional members?

Warren Buffett: Baptist and Bootlegger
How America’s favorite billionaire plays politics to make money
Peter Schweizer from the March 2012 issue

In 19th-century America, there was a concerted effort to ban alcohol sales on Sunday. “Blue laws,” intended to protect the sanctity and sobriety of the Sabbath, were pushed by what seemed like an odd alliance: Baptists and bootleggers. Baptists backed the ban publicly on moral and religious grounds, while the bootleggers lobbied for the ban privately to boost their own bottom lines. Blocking legal alcohol purchases for even one day each week meant more opportunities for their illegal sales. Bans were enacted state by state, and many blue laws still exist (in Arkansas, Indiana, Minnesota, and Mississippi, for example), although restrictions have been steadily disappearing in recent years. Economist Bruce Yandle immortalized the phrase “Bootleggers and Baptists” in a 1983 Regulation magazine article of the same name, making the point that ostensibly opposing sides will happily collude when it serves their mutual interests.

The old paradox continues in modern-day Washington. Politicians enrich their friends and allies—and sometimes themselves—by coming off as earnest “Baptists” for a worthy cause. Lobbyists for big corporate interests, by contrast, are widely considered bootleggers, no matter how nobly they cloak their arguments. This arrangement has created an opening for a third way: What if a capitalist could somehow manage to sound like a Baptist?

Consider Warren Buffett. Often seen as a grandfatherly figure above the rough-and-tumble of politics, Buffett appears to be immune to the folly and excess of finance as well. He lives in Omaha, Nebraska, in a house he purchased in 1958 for $31,000. He made a fortune for himself and his investors at the business conglomerate Berkshire Hathaway through the humble-sounding approach of value-based investing. He uses folksy expressions: “You don’t know who’s swimming naked,” he said during the height of the financial crisis, “until the tide goes out.” He frequently takes to the nation’s op-ed pages with populist-sounding arguments, such as his August 2010 plea in The New York Times for the government to stop “coddling” the “super-rich” and start raising their taxes.

Buffett the Bootlegger

But this image does not always reflect reality. Warren Buffett is very much a political entrepreneur; his best investments are often in political relationships. In recent years, Buffett has used taxpayer money as a vehicle to even greater profit and wealth. Indeed, the success of some of his biggest bets and the profitability of some of his largest investments rely on government largesse and “coddling” with taxpayer money.

During the financial crisis in the fall of 2008, Buffett became an important symbol on television. He filled the role of fiscal adult, a responsible father figure in the midst of irresponsible Wall Street speculators. While pushing for calm and advocating specific market interventions in both public and private, however, he was also investing (sometimes quietly) so he could profit once his policy advice was implemented. This put Buffett in the position of being both Baptist and bootlegger, praised for his moral character while shaking his finger all the way to the bank.

In the summer of 2008, when several investment houses and the government-sponsored mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac teetered on the brink of financial collapse, Buffett was “uncharacteristically quiet,” as the London Guardian observed. It was only on September 23 that he became a highly visible player in the drama, investing $5 billion in Goldman Sachs, which was overleveraged and short on cash. Buffett’s play gave the investment bank a much-needed cash infusion, making a heck of a deal for himself in return: Berkshire Hathaway received preferred stock with a 10 percent dividend yield and an attractive option to buy another $5 billion in stock at $115 a share.

Wall Street was on fire, and Buffett was running toward the flames. But he was doing so with the expectation that the fire department (that is, the federal government) was right behind him with buckets of bailout money. As he admitted on CNBC at the time, “If I didn’t think the government was going to act, I wouldn’t be doing anything this week.”

Buffett needed the bailout. In addition to Goldman Sachs, which was not as badly leveraged as some of its competitors, Buffett was heavily invested in several other banks, such as Wells Fargo and U.S. Bancorp, that were also at risk and in need of federal cash.

So it’s no surprise that Buffett began campaigning for the $700 billion Trouble Asset Relief Program (TARP) that was being hammered out in Washington. The first vote on the bill failed in the House of Representatives on September 29. But Buffett was in a unique position to help reverse its fate.

During the 2008 presidential campaign Buffett was mentioned as a candidate for Treasury secretary by both John McCain and Barack Obama. But it was clear where his loyalties lay: He had been a financial supporter of Barack Obama going back to 2004, when Obama ran for the U.S. Senate. Each had been impressed when they met, and Buffett said at a 2007 fundraiser in Nebraska that the two “had a lot of time to talk.” During his 2008 presidential campaign, Obama made it clear that while he received plenty of advice on the campaign trail, “Warren Buffett is one of those people that I listen to.” Obama added that the Oracle of Omaha was one of his “economic advisers.”

Several senators and congressmen were shareholders in Berkshire Hathaway and therefore in a position to earn big returns by passing the bailout bill. Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.), for example, held between $1 million and $6 million in Berkshire stock, by far the largest asset in his portfolio. Initially resistant to the bailout bill, Nelson ended up voting in favor of it. Buffett’s support was hardly the deciding factor in passing the bill. But his Baptist-bootlegger position was strong in both directions: Many people heeded his advice, then he (and they) made a lot of money after the bailout.

Throughout the financial crisis and the debate over the stimulus in early 2009, several members of Congress were buying and trading Berkshire stock. Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) bought Berkshire shares four times over a three-week period in September and October 2008, up to $130,000 worth. He bought shares during the debate over the bailout, during the vote, and after the vote. Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) bought the stock, as did Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.), who bought up to $500,000 worth just days after the bailout bill was signed. Some legislators also followed Buffett’s example by buying shares in Goldman Sachs after the bailout. Among them were Rep. John Boehner (R-Ohio), Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-N.M.), and Rep. Vern Buchanan (R-Fla.).

Early in the financial crisis, Obama, then a senator and his party’s presidential nominee, had been cautious and lukewarm about a possible bailout. But in the days following Buffett’s multibillion-dollar play for Goldman Sachs, and with fears of economic collapse mounting, Obama became a powerful champion of the government rescue. As the top Democrat in the country, he had an important vote. The New York Times reported that Obama “intensified” his efforts to “rally support for the $700 billion financial bailout package” after September 28, 2008. The plan was necessary, said Obama, “to safeguard the economy.”

Publicly, Buffett struck a posture of cheering on the bailout from the sidelines. “I’m not brave enough to try to influence the Congress,” he told The New York Times in a September 24 article. But Buffett’s actions directly contradicted his words. Days later, he participated in a conference call with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and other House Democrats during which he pushed them to pass the bill, warning that otherwise the country faces “the biggest financial meltdown in American history.”

The stakes were high for Buffett as well. If the bailout went through, it would be a windfall for Goldman. If it failed, it would be disastrous for Berkshire Hathaway.

The first vote failed, as Congress faced enormous heat from voters angry about the prospect of aiding Wall Street. On the eve of the second TARP vote in the House, Buffett moved toward the fire again, buying a $3 billion stake in corporate giant General Electric (GE). As with Goldman, he was able to negotiate advantageous terms, receiving a 10 percent dividend on his shares. He also purchased the option to buy $3 billion in stock at discounted terms. GE was in even worse financial shape than Goldman, thanks to its financial arm, GE Capital. Eventually it would receive $140 billion in taxpayer capital to stay afloat.

Buffett, a genius at public relations, said he had “confidence in Congress to do the right thing.” He appeared to be the private-sector savior of Goldman Sachs and GE, while giving members of Congress much-needed cover to bail out what had recently been among Wall Street’s most favored firms.

Crony Capitalism Pays

With the passage of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act, the Treasury Department was authorized to loan financial institutions a total of $700 billion, which gave it unprecedented authority to pick winners and losers. Access to TARP money was not guaranteed, and the terms of the loans were unclear. The process was opaque. As American Prospect Editor Robert Kuttner put it, the TARP proceedings were conducted “largely behind closed doors, and the design is by, for and in the interest of large banks, hedge funds, and private equity companies. Because there are no explicit criteria, it’s very hard to know” if anyone got special treatment. The entire process, he said, “reeks of favoritism and special treatment.”

Having the correct political connections was critical. A National Bureau of Economic Research study by four researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, documented the power of such connections. Economist Daron Acemoglu and his colleagues found that when Timothy Geithner, a man who had spent his career shuttling back and forth between Wall Street and Washington, was announced as President Obama’s nominee for treasury secretary, it “produced a cumulative abnormal return for Geithner-connected financial firms of around 15 percent from day 0.” The stock market reflects the thinking of all investors, and they clearly believed Geithner would be able to reward his friends directly or indirectly.

Conversely, when there was word that Geithner’s nomination might be derailed by tax issues, those same firms were hit hard with “abnormal negative returns.” Acemoglu et al. systematically examined companies that had corporate ties to Geithner, had executives who served with him on other boards, or had other direct relationships. They found that “the quantitative effect is comparable to standard findings” in Third World countries with weak institutions and higher levels of corruption. In other words, markets react to government actions in the U.S. the same way they do in a corrupt developing country. Crony capitalism pays, and the market knows it.

Buffett, of course, was not the only one with connections in Washington. Goldman Sachs had a direct line to Bush administration Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, its former managing partner, as well as incoming officials in the Obama administration. But Buffett was far better liked by the American public than were the executives at Goldman Sachs. He was therefore a much more effective advocate for bailout funds than Paulson could ever be.

An April 2011 working paper by researchers at the University of Michigan School of Business found that “firms with political connections” were much more likely to get TARP funds than firms that were not well connected. The study looked at how much money companies contributed to election campaigns through PAC contributions and donations by executives as well as how much companies spent on lobbyists. Finance professors Ran Duchin and Denis Sosyura found that politically connected firms, despite the infusion of federal funds, were outperformed by unconnected firms. In other words, poorly run but well-connected companies got the loot.

The fact that politically connected banks got good deals from the Treasury was not lost on the banking industry. Robert Wilmers, the chairman and CEO of M&T Bank, told shareholders in April 2009, “The pattern is clear: The bailout money and the perks are concentrated among the big banks, the ones who pay the lobbyists and make the campaign contributions, while the healthy banks pay the freight.”

Buffett needed the TARP bailout more than most. In all, Berkshire Hathaway firms received $95 billion in TARP money. Berkshire held stock in Wells Fargo, Bank of America, American Express, and Goldman Sachs, which received not only TARP money but also Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) backing for their debt, worth a total of $130 billion. All told, TARP-assisted companies constituted a whopping 30 percent of Buffett’s publicly disclosed stock portfolio. The folksy outsider with his home-spun investment wisdom, the Houston Chronicle concluded in an April 2009 investigative piece, was “one of the top beneficiaries of the banking bailout.”

Buffett received better terms for his Goldman investment than the government got for its bailout. His dividend was set at 10 percent, while the government’s was 5 percent. Had the bailout not gone through, and had Goldman not been given such generous terms under TARP, things would have been very different for Buffett. As it stood, the arrangement with Goldman Sachs earned Berkshire about $500 million a year in dividends. “We love the investment!” he exclaimed to Berkshire investors. The General Electric deal also was profitable. As Reuters business columnist Rolfe Winkler noted on his blog in August 2009: “Were it not for government bailouts, for which Buffett lobbied hard, many of his company’s stock holdings would have been wiped out.”

By April 2009, Goldman share prices had more than doubled. By July 2009, Buffett had already received a return of $2.5 billion from his investment.

Later, astonishingly, Buffett would publicly complain about the bailouts in his 2008 letter to Berkshire investors, claiming that government subsidies put Berkshire at a disadvantage. As he put it, funders “who are using imaginative methods (or lobbying skills) to come under the government’s umbrella have money costs that are minimal,” whereas “highly-rated companies, such as Berkshire, are experiencing borrowing costs that…are at record levels.” Berkshire, of course, is simply a holding company representing a long list of investment assets—including investments in eight banks that were helped by the FDIC’s Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program. As Winkler put it, “It takes chutzpah to lobby for bailouts, make trades seeking to profit from them, and then complain that those doing so put you at a disadvantage.”

Unseemly but Legal

One financial observer, Graham Summers of Phoenix Capital Research, claimed on the finance blog site Seeking Alpha in October 2008 that Buffett’s conduct during the financial crisis involved a “a serious conflict of interest…seriously bordering on insider trading.” But what Buffett did was entirely legal. It may have been an exercise in crony capitalism and manipulation, but he broke no law. He simply used his political connections to secure huge profits with taxpayer money.

There are two main questions to ask about Buffett’s behavior. First, why do so many people continue to heed his policy advice without considering his enormous self-interest? Second, and more important, how did our politics get so warped by deep-pocketed, heavily invested advisers?

After the bailout bill passed, Warren Buffett sat down and wrote Treasury Secretary Paulson a four-page letter proposing a larger solution to the financial crisis: a quasi-private fund backed by the U.S. government that would buy bad loans and other rapidly sinking investments. He proposed that for every $10 billion put up by the private sector, the federal government would kick in $40 billion. As Paulson put it in his memoir, “I knew, of course, that as an investor in financial institutions, including Wells Fargo and Goldman Sachs, Warren had a vested interest in the idea.”

The bootlegger’s interest does not necessarily mean the Baptist’s ideas are wrong. The Treasury Department considered Buffett’s proposal, but with Paulson leaving at the end of President George W. Bush’s term, it would fall to the incoming secretary, Tim Geithner, to act on it. Geithner tweaked the plan and announced the Public-Private Investment Program in March 2009. It was largely seen as a boon to banks, especially large banks with a lot of bad debt.

What did Buffett do in the six months between writing the letter and watching the adapted policy get approved? He bought more bank stock. According to Berkshire’s quarterly reports, Buffett’s firm bought 12.4 million shares of Wells Fargo during this period and another 1.5 million shares in U.S. Bancorp. When Geithner announced the Public-Private Investment Program, bank stocks rallied and Buffett’s holdings did very well. We don’t know the exact price that Buffett paid for these millions of shares because he is not legally required to list the dates he bought them. But we do know those bank stocks all jumped after Geithner unveiled his program. Wells Fargo, which was trading around $20 per share early in 2009, jumped to $30 a share in the weeks following Geithner’s announcement. U.S. Bancorp did even better: It had hit a low of $8 a share in February 2009 but vaulted to more than $20 a share by May. And of course Buffett already owned tens of millions of shares in a host of financial companies, such as American Express and M&T Bank, which also benefited.

Buffett did very well with Goldman Sachs and GE too after they received their bailout money. His net gain from General Electric as of April 2011 was $1.2 billion. His profits from the Goldman deal by then had exceeded the gains of July 2009, reaching as high as $3.7 billion. He had bet on his ability to help secure the bailout, and the bet paid off.

In the fall of 2010, Buffet wrote a “Thank You, Uncle Sam” op-ed piece in The New York Times, praising the role that the government played in stabilizing markets throughout the crisis. There was no disclaimer or disclosure of how much he personally gained from TARP or the Public-Private Investment Program. He simply endorsed both as good public policy. At the bottom of the article he was identified this way: “Warren E. Buffett is the chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway, a diversified holding company.”

With tongue in cheek, journalist Ira Stoll, the former managing editor of the New York Sun (and current columnist for reason.com), suggested the bio might have been more accurate with a bit of rewriting: “Warren Buffett, the largest crony capitalist in the world, shareholder of GE, Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo, U.S. Bancorp, M&T Bank, and American Express, as well as competitor of private equity and hedge fund firms that have been threatened with new taxes and regulations, and behind the scenes, insider adviser to most of the government officials mentioned above.”

Again, to be clear, even though Buffett was the one who proposed the public-private partnership, there is absolutely nothing illegal about lobbying for a policy while investing in the companies that stand to gain most if that policy is adopted. But consider this: Had Buffett instead pushed a private investment house to make an acquisition that would benefit certain stocks while quietly buying shares in those same stocks, he would have been vulnerable to charges of insider trading.

Indeed, this is what his lieutenant David Sokol was accused of doing in 2010, landing him in legal hot water. Sokol, who resigned amidst insider trading accusations, apparently bought shares in Lubrizol, a chemical company, and then encouraged his employer, Berkshire Hathaway, to buy a large stake in the company, thereby driving up the price of the stock. All Buffett did differently was use the federal government instead of a private company to boost the fortunes of certain stocks. This is why crony capitalism is so perennially attractive to financiers: It’s legal, and it’s often more remunerative than the illegal private-sector version might be. Because government officials are dealing with other people’s money, they are less likely than a private firm to drive a hard bargain.

Buffett has long believed that corporate-government partnerships provide excellent investment opportunities. While he’s famous for owning Dairy Queen and other all-American private companies, two of his largest holdings are in railroads and regulated utilities. He regularly lobbies on their behalf and counts on significant public money to make them more profitable.

After the 2008 financial crisis appeared to be easing, Buffett turned his attention to championing the Obama administration’s stimulus program. When he went on television to hawk the stimulus, he was never asked what he might personally be getting out of the deal. A candid answer would have taken up many valuable minutes of airtime.

Railroad Job

In late 2009, Buffett made his largest investment ever when he decided to buy Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway (BNSF). It was not just an endorsement of the railroad industry’s financials; it was also a huge bet on the budget priorities of his friend Barack Obama. As The Wall Street Journal reported, “Berkshire Hathaway Inc.’s planned purchase of Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp. represents a bet that upcoming Washington policies to improve infrastructure and combat climate change will be a boon to the freight-railroad industry. President Barack Obama has said railroad investment will be a cornerstone of his transportation policies, given the environmental benefits and improved mobility that come with taking cars and trucks off roads.”

Others in the railroad industry saw Buffett’s involvement as very helpful, precisely because he was so politically connected. “It’s a positive for the rail industry because of Buffett’s influence in Washington,” Henry Lampe, president of the short-haul railroad Chicago South Shore & South Bend, told the Journal.

Buffett bought BNSF just as the Obama administration was beginning a series of initiatives to rapidly expand the government’s spending on railroads. After Buffett took over the railroad company, he dramatically increased spending on lobbyists. Berkshire spent $1.2 million on lobbyists in 2008, but by 2009 its budget had jumped to $9.8 million, where it more or less remained. Pouring money into lobbying is perhaps the best investment that Buffett could make.

Obama’s plans to invest heavily in railroads, including a commitment to high-speed rail, put BNSF in a position to benefit handsomely. BNSF already has talked to Seattle officials about leasing or selling its rail lines for an intercity project, and that’s just a start. A map of BNSF lines around the country overlaps nicely with the government’s proposed high-speed rail lines, from Seattle to Florida, California to the Northeast. Buffett is geographically and strategically positioned to profit from those government-funded rail systems, should they be built.

The 2009 stimulus package includes $48 billion (of the total $787 billion) for infrastructure improvement, a chunk of which is headed for railroads. How much will BNSF benefit? It’s hard to calculate. Type “BNSF” on the Recovery.gov website, which tracks grants, subsidized loans, and contracts signed under the stimulus, and you find 1,800 entries, including everything from a $36 million grant from the Department of Homeland Security to money from the Environmental Protection Agency.

Buffett also owns MidAmerican Energy Holdings, which received $93.4 million in stimulus money. General Electric, in which he owns a $5 billion stake, was one of the largest recipients of stimulus money in the country.

Buffett famously puts his folksy investment ideas in an annual letter to Berkshire investors. He rarely mentions the bootlegger stuff involving lobbyists, government funds, bailouts, and stimulus grants, preferring the Baptist language of social good. “We see a ‘social compact’ existing between the public and our railroad business, just as it is the case with our utilities,” he said in his 2010 letter to shareholders. “If either side shirks its obligations, both sides will inevitably suffer. Therefore, both parties to the compact should—and we believe will—understand the benefit of behaving in a way that encourages good behavior by the other. It is inconceivable that our country will realize anything close to its full economic potential without it possessing first-class electricity and railroad systems.” He added that both businesses “require wise regulators who will provide certainty about allowable returns so that we can confidently make the huge investments required to maintain, replace, and expand the plant.”

The term social compact sounds benign. But when did American voters agree to turn one of the richest men in America into one of the biggest recipients of taxpayer subsidies?

In August 2011, Buffett vacationed with President Obama on Martha’s Vineyard, and they discussed the economy. Shortly after that, he agreed to host an Obama re-election fundraiser in New York City where contributors could buy $35,800 VIP tickets to meet Buffett and talk about the economy.

As fellow investor Steven Rattner pointed out in his 2010 book Overhaul: An Insider’s Account of the Obama Administration’s Emergency Rescue of the Auto Industry, “Warren Buffett has shown that superb investing need not entail the months of due diligence and deliberation that private equity firms typically apply to a deal. Buffett has been known to make successful multibillion-dollar bets on the basis of a few meetings or phone calls.” That is particularly true if he calls Washington.

Warren Buffett is a financial genius. But even better for his portfolio, though worse for the rest of us, he is a political genius.

Peter Schweizer is a research fellow at the Hoover Institution. This article is adapted from his book Throw Them All Out

http://reason.com/archives/2012/02/09/warren-buffett-baptist-and-bootlegger

IP: Logged


This topic is 7 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7 

All times are Eastern Standard Time

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Linda-Goodman.com

Copyright © 2012

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a