posted April 27, 2012 08:38 PM            

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posted April 27, 2012 10:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
so you think the answer is an egocentric, petty and jealous form of government? now that is civilized..let's just reward the greedy and throw out the gentler less selfish among us. kind of matches the current crop of "conservatism"

in fact the current protectionist attitude towards the rich at the expense of the poor is very reminiscent of the "all are created equal, but some are more equal than others" attitude orwell was talking about...

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I don't think it's quite fair to assume that just because human nature is egocentric, that an egocentric government is the only form of goverment that can work. To be honest, I think the problem is the size of many of the countries. You hit this critical point where there are too many people and collective decisions get watered down far too much to please everyone. I may not like conservative political values, but that doesn't make it bad or inherently wrong. The core values of it is about economic freedom and personal liberty. Those are noble. The way the conservatives in this country (the self claimed ones anyway) aren't acting of holding the values of what conservatism is about. At least not completely. It's something else that I don't think has a label. Thus, it's gotten a bad name.

Honestly, I don't think there is such a thing as an ideal government, it depends on the population and the nature/location of the country itself. Each person is going to feel like they fit in with one particular government over another, as we are all different.

I'm always reminding myself: Perfection does not exist. Shoot for it, as it can lead to good things. Just don't ever expect to get there, and be prepared to fail in the process. This applies to governments as well.

posted April 28, 2012 05:16 AM            

And abortion isn't much of a Communist issue. Communist Romania seems to provide a lot of inspiration for many who want to ban abortion in the USA. (Communism isn't the same thing as Socialism, however, at least the 2 shouldn't automatically be equated as Americans seem prone to do. And while I can see some liberals as Socialist, I can't see any liberal as Communist, and those Commies and hardcore Leftists I've known have generally called liberals "apologists for Capitalism.")

And for anyone interested I thought I'd share part of the response I got from my Australian friend who just got back from Vietnam, after I asked him if he waited in real long lines, etc (Vietnam being a Marxist-Leninist state):

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What was it like? Wonderful beyond belief. Not without its problems. as you'd expect, but let me see if I can put some thoughts down. Forgive me if it's longish.

Viet Nam is a developing country. (What they call) the American War left it devastated, not only suffering the after-effects of carpet bombing and chemical warfare (I need to talk about that at some point and show some photos), but subsequent sanctions left them without the means to recover. The Soviet Union provided them with a lot of help but, once that collapsed, they were on their own.

Bill Clinton "normalised" relations with them during his term, and that set the scene for an incredible recovery. Have a look through my photos and you'll get some idea of what it's like. If you could bear to create a Faecesbook account, I've posted lots of albums about the trip there.

Foreign investment has boomed, as has tourism. Factories have sprung up all over the place making everything from Korean cars to designer clothes, taking advantage of the low wages. An article in the local paper said that the Party had recently increased the minimum wage to US$50 per month. I asked our guides how many people would be working for that, and he said that it was a starting point for many factory workers - most would double that quite quickly as they gained skills. It's a different matter in rural areas of course. I posted some photos of a woman who makes palm leaf roof thatching - she can make 4 strips per hour and she gets $15 for 100 strips.

Our travel company said that tipping is neither required nor expected, but much appreciated. They recommended US$3 per person per day for guides and $2 per person per day for drivers - that doesn't sound like much to us, but it's a lot for them. Our guides, btw, were generally university educated (tourism and history) and incredibly knowledgeable.

But we have to put that in context. Everywhere you go there are local markets (photos on FB, not sure if there are here) selling a HUGE array of stuff from clothes to fresh food - fruit, vegetables, herbs, meat, fish. Everywhere you go there are little shops selling fresh food - steaming bowls of pho - delicious noodle soup with fish or meat - for less than $1.

Lines? Don't make me laugh. Not once. People selling stuff outnumber the customers. You can't help being accosted by shopkeepers - "Sir, madame, come into my shop! Delicious food. Clothes - I have your size" etc. The markets were always crowded. They say that the Brits are a nation of shopkeepers - the Vietnamese put them to shame.

Oh yes, there's dirt poverty. I posted photos of a house that a lady invited us into - just a shack with bare dirt floors. But it was surrounded by trees and shrubs bearing fruit and vegetables, and she'd catch fish in the river. Her kids looked happy and healthy and they went to school wearing clean clothes. Literacy is 95% and everyone learns English as well as Vietnamese.

Not only can they feed themselves, they export vast quantities of food - mainly rice and fruit and vegetables.

I asked each of our guides what effect communism has on their day-to-day lives. There were two consistent answers: only two children per household (a rule seemingly more honoured in the breach than the observance) and absolute intolerance of political dissent. Don't even think of starting an opposition political movement.

One of our guides had an almost childlike faith in multi-party politics. He said if they were allowed to vote for other parties, they'd have to reduce the price of gasoline (now about US$1 per litre) which is, as you can imagine, VERY expensive. They all ride little motorbikes (most seemingly quite new and very classy). Cars are taxed at 300% so a car that we might pay $15,000 would cost them $40,000, but there were plenty of nice new cars driving about.)

Corruption and bureaucracy abound, of course. One of our drivers got pinged by the cops for crossing a single white line (don't start me about the traffic). He said that he could either take the fine and go through the system, losing points on his license, or bribe the cops. He opted to take the fine.

But then, though there are elections for representatives to the political machine, there's still only one party. Two things struck me about that - no electoral circus of the sort that we're used to, wasting time and money every few years, and the ability to plan ahead for more than the electoral cycle. Both unquestionably good things.

I don't doubt that, ultimately, some form of multi-party system will evolve, but they're doing pretty well.

The most amazing thing? The people. Jane, you would LOVE this place. I've never encountered such genuinely warm and friendly people in my life

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posted April 28, 2012 08:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
so you think the answer is an egocentric, petty and jealous form of government? now that is civilized..let's just reward the greedy and throw out the gentler less selfish among us. kind of matches the current crop of "conservatism"

in fact the current protectionist attitude towards the rich at the expense of the poor is very reminiscent of the "all are created equal, but some are more equal than others" attitude orwell was talking about...

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When one believes in the Bible, the Bible is clear about the nature of man. Read Proverbs for a quick study of how God sees man( if one believes the Bible is divine) The New Birth changes man i.e. being Born Again. Then, man has God's Spirit alive in man.Other than this, there is no goodness in man. There may be outer shows of goodness and there are. However, man is not good, inherently and long term, you could say.
This is the Biblical POV. Hence, Bible believers do not believe in socialism per se. We do not believe in Utopian ways being able to work on earth: any form of Utopian ways of which socialism is one. We know they it will never work. Hence, Animal Farm!

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 28, 2012 12:13 PM            

but yes, there are many nasty tendencies in human nature, mostly based on the belief (fear again) that "there isn't enough to go around" and thus "i have to get mine while i can and hang the other guy!"

but i see NO reason to cater to this and encourage it through government. granted, the original government was basically a protection racket perpetrated on those who couldn't defend themselves...or were led to believe they couldn't.

posted April 28, 2012 12:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
that view is one of the problems i have with the bible. however, i believe jesus said otherwise. and i believe that while man has many fear-based faults, he is inherently good. a baby naturally shares unless he has been "victimized" by someone who taught him to be possessive. a child naturally tells the truth unless it has found through experience that truth gets it in trouble...and so on.

but yes, there are many nasty tendencies in human nature, mostly based on the belief (fear again) that "there isn't enough to go around" and thus "i have to get mine while i can and hang the other guy!"

but i see NO reason to cater to this and encourage it through government. granted, the original government was basically a protection racket perpetrated on those who couldn't defend themselves...or were led to believe they couldn't.

but surely our aim is to grow into a better version of our smaller selves?

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You can't. The fights on LL should show you that he he

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 28, 2012 03:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
i believe that while man has many fear-based faults, he is inherently good. a baby naturally shares unless he has been "victimized" by someone who taught him to be possessive. a child naturally tells the truth unless it has found through experience that truth gets it in trouble...and so on.

but yes, there are many nasty tendencies in human nature, mostly based on the belief (fear again) that "there isn't enough to go around" and thus "i have to get mine while i can and hang the other guy!"

but i see NO reason to cater to this and encourage it through government. granted, the original government was basically a protection racket perpetrated on those who couldn't defend themselves...or were led to believe they couldn't.

but surely our aim is to grow into a better version of our smaller selves?

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I couldn't agree more with this. In particular what I have bold. Life is to be about betterment of others and ourselves as you said.

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
@ tautomer, i agree. there is no perfection in government, but we can keep trying!

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Yup! As the say "jump at the sun, and if you miss, you can't help but grab some stars". Which is actually a line from a song by one of my favorite bands.

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
You can't. The fights on LL should show you that he he

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That really was not necessary at all. Seriously. The only purpose this serves is to inflame another person and nothing more.

posted April 28, 2012 03:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
then what, dear ami, is the point of religion? to magnify our worst qualities? or to do our best to grow out of them?

i find it harder and harder to believe that you are a christian, let alone jewish. you show no interest in growth - only in wallowing.

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Well, too late now, but just ignore comments like that. Saying stuff like this makes you just as guilty of the actions which can not be condoned at all.

That being said, ami did bait you.

posted April 28, 2012 03:49 PM            

Kat and Amie Anne are aware of the parameters here and stay within the guidelines....

posted April 28, 2012 04:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
I`m around tautomer4314.

Kat and Amie Anne are aware of the parameters here and stay within the guidelines....

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Oy. Could you point me to a list of rules or something so I can understand what is acceptable and not? From my own standards there are so many things that go on here that are just not ok at all, and I don't want to step on anyones toes.

posted April 28, 2012 07:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
that view is one of the problems i have with the bible. however, i believe jesus said otherwise. and i believe that while man has many fear-based faults, he is inherently good. a baby naturally shares unless he has been "victimized" by someone who taught him to be possessive. a child naturally tells the truth unless it has found through experience that truth gets it in trouble...and so on.

but yes, there are many nasty tendencies in human nature, mostly based on the belief (fear again) that "there isn't enough to go around" and thus "i have to get mine while i can and hang the other guy!"

but i see NO reason to cater to this and encourage it through government. granted, the original government was basically a protection racket perpetrated on those who couldn't defend themselves...or were led to believe they couldn't.

but surely our aim is to grow into a better version of our smaller selves?

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This is the Biblical view. Man is NOT born good. Man is born with the remnants of Adams disobedience. A man born today has Adam's disobedience inside him. You may say, "It is not fair" Maybe so, but that is what the Bible teaches about the nature of man.

Hence, no man can be "good". It is impossible. Hence, there can be no form of utopia, ever.

The only good ANY man can have is when he as Jesus' Spirit come to live inside him. That is what happens at the New Birth i.e being Born Again.

That is how the Bible views man.

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 28, 2012 07:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by tautomer4314:
Oy. Could you point me to a list of rules or something so I can understand what is acceptable and not? From my own standards there are so many things that go on here that are just not ok at all, and I don't want to step on anyones toes.

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So rules oriented

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 28, 2012 07:57 PM            

This forum has more latitude than the others because of the subjects involved and the passions they raise. It does become controversial and heated at times which would not be allowed out side of this forum.
The snippet of rules below is enforced here.

Lindaland Rules of Conduct *snippet

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, racist, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually explicit, pornographic, threatening, personally insulting of any member, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by Linda-Goodman.com.

here are the complete Rules:
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/003003.html

posted April 28, 2012 07:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by tautomer4314:

Well, too late now, but just ignore comments like that. Saying stuff like this makes you just as guilty of the actions which can not be condoned at all.

That being said, ami did bait you.

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I will be honest. That was not a taunt. I am not saying I NEVER do but that was not one

posted April 28, 2012 08:15 PM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:

So rules oriented

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Yup. That's how I am. Knowing the rules eliminates problems and sources of error, as it tells directly what counts as an error and what does not.

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Originally posted by juniperb:
No toes stepped on

here are the complete Rules:
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/003003.html

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Hmm, well, those rules are incredibly vague. It seems that it's completely dependent on the values and strictness of those who hold the power of inforcing those rules. Should I be the person who did things in this forum would be vastly different. While we see the same thing with them, I believe we interpret which counts a violation of them or not.

Due to this vague nature of these rules, and the strong disconnect between what I have read, and how they are interpreted and in forced, I can't garuntee that I will not error with what I feel is a problem in the future. I will do my best to control myself in this regard. Nevertheless, I do suspect differences are going to arise.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:

I will be honest. That was not a taunt. I am not saying I NEVER do but that was not one

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Fair enough.

posted April 28, 2012 08:20 PM            

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Hmm, well, those rules are incredibly vague. It seems that it's completely dependent on the values and strictness of those who hold the power of inforcing those rules

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I am certain that can be said of our ruling Goverment as well

posted April 28, 2012 08:24 PM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 28, 2012 09:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
I am certain that can be said of our ruling Goverment as well

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It's not THAT bad, but at times it does drive me nuts. It's a major reason why I would never go into law. It is NOT cut and dry like it should be.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Tautomer
The hard thing in life is that the rules are wooly. That is what makes life so hard.

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Oh trust me I am fully aware of this. It's bitten me in the but a few times but I have learned from it. I simply derive as much order as I can from the chaos of life. Or, where there are iffy rules, I create my own and impose them on myself. It works out well in the end for the most part.

posted April 30, 2012 03:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
He IS a socialist. Whatever he does to other countries is one thing. He will destroy us if he is not removed from office imho.

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posted April 30, 2012 03:29 PM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 30, 2012 07:19 PM            

My guess is that it's from our Cold War propaganda that got so intense with downright hysteria (how the advent of "evil Communism" was just a few lapses of vigilance away), and people trained to think that way have a real hard time NOT thinking that way. One reason I think I'm right in this guess is because those not raised on Cold War propaganda seem to have a far more realistic attitude (cynicism and naivete aside) about people like the POTUS and what the POTUS can actually accomplish when there are so many formal and informal checks on his power.