posted October 03, 2012 07:42 PM            

Read much katatonic? Or didn't you see the qualifier I put in my statement? Is it one or the other...or both.

"The same can be said for "Pre-emption" if a credible argument can be made another nation is preparing to attack the US or a US ally with which we have a defense treaty or is pursuing weapons systems which are banned or which they say they will use against the US or US allies."

You know katatonic, like nuclear weapons or chemical or biological weapons...like Saddam and like the little madman in Iran who threatens to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Preemption..YES.

posted October 03, 2012 08:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
it's still not justified. and preemptive is not a synonym for quick OR effective.

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Yes. The real enemy can't be defeated with bombs.

The real enemy is a system that has us entrenched in ignorance and greed.

Ideologically, we can never "win" anything by killing innocent people. Absolutely never. We are no further ahead than cannibals and barbarians, encouraging "preemptive" action by forces we are unfamiliar with, against people we are unfamiliar with, for reasons we are given and blindly trust.

But the propaganda and media block-out of the realities of these wars is effective, with blood-curdling consequences for hundreds of thousands of people.

I would rather die than encourage one US drone strike against an innocent person abroad.

posted October 04, 2012 09:46 AM            

Were those Americans and foreign nationals in the Twin Towers and Building 3 at the WTC "innocent people" Faith"?

Were those civilians working at the Pentagon and military personnel assigned there too, "innocent people" Faith?

Were those airline passengers and flight crews on American Airlines Flight 11, United Airlines Flight 175, American Airlines Flight 77 and United Airlines Flight 93 "innocent people" Faith?

Or, were they guilty...because they were Americans Faith...and 1st, last and always, America is guilty?

posted October 04, 2012 10:45 AM            

Skim them once in a while to perceive your sick energy that I actually wish I could help you heal...and I glimpse your deep acceptance of the web of lies.

posted October 04, 2012 12:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
Yes. The real enemy can't be defeated with bombs.

The real enemy is a system that has us entrenched in ignorance and greed.

Ideologically, we can never "win" anything by killing innocent people. Absolutely never. We are no further ahead than cannibals and barbarians, encouraging "preemptive" action by forces we are unfamiliar with, against people we are unfamiliar with, for reasons we are given and blindly trust.

But the propaganda and media block-out of the realities of these wars is effective, with blood-curdling consequences for hundreds of thousands of people.

I would rather die than encourage one US drone strike against an innocent person abroad.

---

i agree

posted October 04, 2012 01:05 PM            

Some recent choice comments by jwhop:

"You're just full of crap acoustic..which is your default circumstance."

"I know you search for anyone..idiots included to agree with your nonsense acoustic, as though that somehow vindicates your own ignorance."

"But your biggest blind spot is Sarah Palin. She's much more intelligent than you, much more intelligent than your little Marxist Messiah, O'Bomber,
God, you are irrational, illogical and unreasonable acoustic."

"You're far too valuable to me as an opponent whose nose I can constantly rub in your own bullshiiit and the bullshiiit of other leftists..."

"Keep it up IQ. You're sounding like a wild-eyed conspiracy loony-tunes."

Not to mention this is in the thread called "Global Unity," with the high-minded New Age goal of celebrating "our cultural, national, and spiritual diversity as we each unite in Love and Light."

For all the recent insistence on posting topics relevant to the board they are in...why bother having such a sickly sweet description of this forum, if it is allowed to be monopolized by such ranting? ...If you are all about "free speech" and allowing those such as jwhop to continue with their smug, self-satisfying, alienating political rants, then please just be honest and change the description of this board. Otherwise, it is deceptive and bogus.

posted October 04, 2012 01:13 PM            

This is a tale mentioned by Gurdjieff in Ouspensky's book In Search Of The Miraculous. It well illustrates man's position on this planet. The tale is as follows:

There was an evil magician. He lived deep in the mountains and the forests, and he had thousands of sheep. But the problem was that the sheep were afraid of the magician because every day the sheep were seeing that one of them was being killed for his breakfast, another was being killed for his lunch. So they ran away from the magician's ranch and it was a difficult job to find them in the vast forest. Being a magician, he used magic.

He hypnotized all the sheep and suggested to them first of all that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned, that, on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place he suggested to them that if anything at all were going to happen to them it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it.

He then told different sheep...to some, "You are a man, you need not be afraid. It is only the sheep who are going to be killed and eaten, not you. You are a man just like I am." Some other sheep were told, "You are a lion -- only sheep are afraid. They escape, they are cowards. You are a lion; you would prefer to die than to run away. You don't belong to these sheep. So when they are killed it is not your problem. They are meant to be killed, but you are the most loved of my friends in this forest." In this way, he told every sheep different stories, and from the second day, the sheep stopped running away from the house.

They still saw other sheep being killed, butchered, but it was not their concern. Somebody was a lion, somebody was a tiger, somebody was a man, somebody was a magician and so forth. Nobody was a sheep except the one who was being killed. This way, without keeping servants, he managed thousands of sheep. They would go into the forest for their food, for their water, and they would come back home, believing always one thing: "It is some sheep who is going to be killed, not you. You don't belong to the sheep. You are a lion -- respected, honored, a friend of the great magician." The magician's problems were solved and the sheep never ran away again.'

posted October 04, 2012 01:18 PM            

You missed some big ones.

Accidential Americans and "usual suspects".

Are you one or the other or both?

I notice that when the usual suspects can't answer a question...because the real answer would make them look utterly foolish, they attempt to change the subject..or disengage.

The idea that the US doesn't have the perfect right to protect US citizens by whatever means we have at our disposal is so loony-tunes it defies all logic, reason and rationality.

posted October 04, 2012 01:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jovian:
I'm wondering at what point a member's comments are finally considered "hateful" or "personally insulting to any member," and therefore break the rules of Lindaland.

Some recent choice comments by jwhop:

"You're just full of crap acoustic..which is your default circumstance."

"I know you search for anyone..idiots included to agree with your nonsense acoustic, as though that somehow vindicates your own ignorance."

"But your biggest blind spot is Sarah Palin. She's much more intelligent than you, much more intelligent than your little Marxist Messiah, O'Bomber,
God, you are irrational, illogical and unreasonable acoustic."

"You're far too valuable to me as an opponent whose nose I can constantly rub in your own bullshiiit and the bullshiiit of other leftists..."

"Keep it up IQ. You're sounding like a wild-eyed conspiracy loony-tunes."

Not to mention this is in the thread called "Global Unity," with the high-minded New Age goal of celebrating "our cultural, national, and spiritual diversity as we each unite in Love and Light."

For all the recent insistence on posting topics relevant to the board they are in...why bother having such a sickly sweet description of this forum, if it is allowed to be monopolized by such ranting? ...If you are all about "free speech" and allowing those such as jwhop to continue with their smug, self-satisfying, alienating political rants, then please just be honest and change the description of this board. Otherwise, it is deceptive and bogus.

OR...how about a separate "political" forum, where anyone who wants to waste their time on such mental masturbation over a game that can't be won can "get off" all they want?

---

posted October 04, 2012 01:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
If there is a threat, and Iran's crazy leader definitely is a threat, then we owe it to the rest of the world to prevent that threat. We learned that from Hitler.

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Consider that we were sold this same line of propaganda about Saddam Hussein. Was it worth it to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis to get Saddam? And build the world's largest embassy in Baghdad?

"I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil."

-Alan Greenspan http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/09/15/greenspan-the-iraq-war-is_n_64580.html

So, too, with Iran. It's about oil.

posted October 04, 2012 02:48 PM            

Oil drives American livelihoods (and those of the Japanese) and enrichens Arabs!!!

Why would we engage in a geo-political conflict if it weren't about our strategic economic interests?

Out of moral principal? Surely we aren't all that naive.

{psst.. I hear Canada has oil and gas}

There are no surgical strikes with Iran! US involvement, even from the aerial perspective, would involved Airborne Early Warning, SEAD, and strikes on missile batteries and anti-aircraft batteries. The Israelis will do the rest.

posted October 04, 2012 06:43 PM            

But at least you know the game YTA. Unless you are being sarcastic and ridiculing Greenspan's summary of the situation?

These are not "moral wars" if you'll pardon the oxymoron, this is not "getting Hitler," this is threatening Iran hopefully to the point of compliance with our demands (about oil) before we start WWIII by stupidly invading.

Everyone can think what they want about geopolitical strategy, but I believe that US empirialism is backfiring and will culminate in innocent US CITIZENS being increasingly assassinated without explanation, indefinitely detained, and/or tortured.

What we wish upon others we bring on ourselves.

Karma.

posted October 05, 2012 09:57 AM            

Arbitrary scenario. There are two carriers in the Straits of Hormuz, one carrier on the North African coast and one in the Med. Iran launches rockets at a oouple of primary ships - frigates, destroyers etc. There is damage and light casualties. Are you telling me that you would stand down and forget about it?

posted October 05, 2012 08:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
But what if the come over and start slaughtering civilians? Turn a blind eye?

---

Americans tend to subscribe to this fantasy that whenever we invade countries, we treat the people better than the dictator/Evil Ruler/Communism we ostensibly went in to "save" the people from.

No matter how many times the US goes into a country killing MORE people than the dictator we (supposedly, according the propaganda) went in to remove, we cling to this convenient script, because it's the go-to, sweeping pardon for our military that ignorance demands.

So that's what you do, Ian. No sense talking to you about the baser motivations for all these military actions. Everything the US military does is for DEFENSE, that's part of the creed of what I call Americanism, as it's lived as a religion.

By the way, how many key American people and corporations supported and furthered the Nazis? Without IBM supplying punchcard systems, the Nazis couldn't have kept track of their prey. People like Charles Lindbergh, an American superstar, came out praising Hitler. People like Prescott Bush, and other Wall Street millionaires, made sure Hitler got his funding.

So let's acknowledge that America and all its people are NOT Snow White. Okay?

posted October 05, 2012 08:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by katatonic:
yes and if no one starts it a handy little false flag always comes in handy, how often can the same MO be used and people just ignore it?

---

It's chilling, isn't it? How easy it is to fool and manipulate people.

Stigmatizing information is particularly effective. Let's NOT talk about 9-11,no matter how shoddy the Commission Report was, and neverminding the fact that Thomas Keene went on to write a whole book about being stonewalled in the investigation.

Only *kooks* and *conspiracy theorists* will touch information that runs counter to the Official Story with a ten-foot pole.

posted October 05, 2012 09:27 PM            

As far as I'm concerned, when you bring trouble to me, I go there and kick your as$. Then I get the hell out. Iraq was a stunning military success, as was Desert Storm. Things went haywire only after the politicians started with their nonsensical democracy initiatives.

posted October 05, 2012 09:39 PM            

You are the in good company with your comments. Many KF's have expressed the same views, and asked for a more credible folder description.

The rules of engagement are suspended in GU, as per managerial sanctions.

posted October 05, 2012 10:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Things went haywire only after the politicians started with their nonsensical democracy initiatives.

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That was all just lies. It sounds nobler than, "We are getting back at Saddam for refusing to trade oil for dollars. We are taking over Iraq and making sure the oil flows, since Saddam wasn't drilling enough. We are going to enrich the Fed by borrowing billions of dollars (debt = capital, as YOU know), and we will enrich Halliburton and all our other contractor friends INCLUDING SBG (Saudi bin Laden Group), and we will waste money like there is NO TOMORROW. That way we can hyperinflate the dollar and pay off our debts to other nations."

You know? "Let's give them Democracy" sounds better to a naive ear than, "Let's pillage their land."

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Since Vietnam, America has never had the willpower to win any wars. Politicians have made every conflict a colossal failure. If left to me, Bengazhi wouldn't exist.

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Aren't we still "winning" in Vietnam?

I mean, people are still dying from the Agent Orange.

posted October 05, 2012 10:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Node:
Jovian:

You are the in good company with your comments. Many KF's have expressed the same views, and asked for a more credible folder description.

The rules of engagement are suspended in GU, as per managerial sanctions.

---

Right.

And I love that comic, Node: "We were attacked, so we got to do whatever we want FOREVER!"

Will check out your links when I have more time. Thanks.