posted November 13, 2012 05:35 PM            

NJ had presumed I wasn't an activist, but I am.

iQ had presumed I am a birther, but I'm not.

You presumed I am not wealthy, but....it's not in good taste to talk about it! (Edit: Um...unless you are YTA, then it's endearing. )

You presume I'm Muslim because I defend Muslims?

Oh and Kat had presumed I never travelled outside the country before when I first started posting here. Funny...I take great pains to never make assumptions about people, but this is like assumption land!

The problem is, AG...drumroll... *you are presumptuous!*

And I can oppose ObamaCare for any reason I like. I am FREE to not like that damn program. I am FREE not to tell you that hospital errors killed my father! (Though, seriously, they did.) I don't have to justify my dislike for the medical system, it just IS.

Frankly, I never got into it here, but that doesn't say I'm being dodgy or vague, it just means, I only have so much time on the internet. And I'd rather be talking in other forums than this one.

For the record, others' assumptions are not my problem, and I'm under no obligation to continually correct your guesses that are based on conditioning, stereotyping, and brainwashing.

For the record.

posted November 13, 2012 05:44 PM            

i do remember that before i ever addressed you ami was on the spot warning you about how mean i am...so i wasn't surprised at your initial defensiveness toward me.

i am sorry if i was presumptuous, faith,(and sorry if i sounded rude too! not intentional) but you also presumed, as i recall, that my objections to your info about the neocons was in defense of obama, which it was not.

posted November 13, 2012 05:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Linda,

I'm sorry. You're right, I shouldn't have been laughing about your belief that the President reads our letters.

My other post, quoting an imaginary letter to Obama, was not entirely sarcastic, though. (And for what it's worth, I don't think sarcasm always means disrespect, if it's in the context of an otherwise friendly interaction or if we are on good terms with each other. But that's just how I allow latitude for others; granted, you may be different.) Anyway, if I were to write to the President that is EXACTLY what I wanted to say.

To me, there is egotism involved in thinking that my letter even matters. I think Obama's PR people appeal to our egos deliberately when they say, "We listen to YOU, we hear you!" And I distrust that. Plus, the anti-drone rhetoric has been laid out in more compelling terms by people a lot more visible, influential, and intelligent than I am. But the President won't bend.

I didn't mean to disrespect YOU, but I don't respect the idea that Obama cares. And that myth was the target of my derision, because I am defiant against being manipulated like that.

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Faith,

I see sarcasm as having different forms. The kind you mention in this post is fine, and I have no problem with it (and have also mentioned that to Randall). But derision is a form I don't like because it involves sneering at another person or their beliefs, thereby implying that the other person is somehow lesser in some respect.

Thanks for the apology and taking the time to explain. I appreciate it and the slate's clean

posted November 13, 2012 06:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I took for granted that I'd offend you. I am surprised, to say the least, that you don't acknowledge your slipperiness in here. It's like you commit until questioned. Once questioned, you're somewhat non-committal.

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I'm not slippery. I just haven't told you my entire life story and, for some bizarre reason, you seem to take offense to that. Are we best friends all the sudden? You need to know everything about me?

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I'm not surprised to find out the story of your father. I wonder how many more stories you have that inform your fears like this.

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Another assumption: I am driven by fear.

I have a 6H sun and Mercury, holistic medicine has been my main hobby for over a decade. I've read well over a hundred books on natural medicine and happen to have strong, well-informed preferences about treatments for degenerative diseases.

Am I off the hook until your next onslaught of assumptions now?

posted November 13, 2012 06:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
i think perhaps people are reading your remarks and seeing those interpretations within?

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Honestly, I think you probably just thought, "She's an ignorant American who doesn't know how the world works," because that was the most convenient way to write me off at the time.

(In AG's view, apparently, I was concealing the fact that I lived in England for a while and travelled around Europe and still maintain friendships with Europeans, so it's still *my fault* you didn't know I didn't grow up in a bubble.)

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
i do remember that before i ever addressed you ami was on the spot warning you about how mean i am...so i wasn't surprised at your initial defensiveness toward me.

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Because you assumed (magic word!) that Ami has a lot of power to sway me??

Why?

Is it my fault you never saw me and Ami fighting?

It's not like she and I never disagree...I just happen to like her, anyway. Especially when we're not arguing.

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
i am sorry if i was presumptuous, faith,(and sorry if i sounded rude too! not intentional) but you also presumed, as i recall, that my objections to your info about the neocons was in defense of obama, which it was not.

---

The assumptions just get in the way of better conversations happening, and make me marvel at people.

I used to go around bragging that I come from a big family. "I come from a big family, I'm the youngest of six kids." Then I was talking to a woman once, told her my big family routine, and two hours later she revealed that she was one of twelve children.

A series of incidents like that taught me young, to be vigilant about trying not to make any assumptions. You can make an ass out of yourself doing that!

Anyway...

I'm usually good at apologizing when I realize I've done wrong. This time, I really don't think I presumed that you were defending Obama. In my reckoning, you were actually defending him. You were saying that you are still holding out on judging him, despite his bad record. That is like protecting him (defending him) from your own critical thoughts...which I personally see no reason for, when his record is so bad.

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
but then no one is forcing you to cool your heels here with the "crotchety" people..

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You're not that crotchety.

posted November 13, 2012 06:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Faith, it seems as if we have a few armchair psychologists here. But rest assured that I totally get you.

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posted November 13, 2012 07:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Linda Jones:
Faith,

But derision is a form I don't like because it involves sneering at another person or their beliefs, thereby implying that the other person is somehow lesser in some respect.

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I'm really sorry I came off like that. I have 3H Pluto and really have to watch myself because my tone can sound harsher than I ever intended. Such was the case here, I was tone deaf to my derision, and not disliking you or meaning to disrespect you in the process.

quote:

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Originally posted by Linda Jones:
Thanks for the apology and taking the time to explain. I appreciate it and the slate's clean

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Thank you! I clean slates!

posted November 13, 2012 07:11 PM            

quote:

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I'm not slippery. I just haven't told you my entire life story and, for some bizarre reason, you seem to take offense to that. Are we best friends all the sudden? You need to know everything about me?

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Nope. Not at all.

I don't take offense to you not sharing your story. I take offense at your asking questions about what you might be every time someone challenges you. "How do you know I'm not _________________" is a very non-committal response implying an intention to slip away from the perceived accusation by not answering or hiding under the anonimity of the internet. People do pick up on that lack of straightforwardness. We see it over and over again in your vaccilating positions. What I'm wondering is why the need? What's so terrible about being you, that you can't own who you are or what you stand for?

quote:

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I have a 6H sun and Mercury

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I have an 8th house Sun, Mercury quintile Pluto, and Moon conjunct Pluto. I'm able to see psychological patterns emerge.

posted November 13, 2012 07:53 PM            

quote:

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"How do you know I'm not _________________" is a very non-committal response implying an intention to slip away from the perceived accusation by not answering or hiding under the anonimity of the internet.

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I've used that reply a grand total of twice, in reply to an assumption that was made about me. It is a rhetorical question that I use to try and wake you up to the fact that you are operating from stereotypes and haven't paid me the courtesy of asking me to clarify my position BEFORE attacking what you presume is my position.

quote:

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You're not driven by fear? So your posting about the NeoCon takeover, and the crumbling of the moral fiber of this country comes from some place other than fear?

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Well, I was talking about fear in the context of not wanting ObamaCare. Now you've broadened the scope of inquiry.

There is actually a lot I could say about the emotional motivations in my resistance to the medical establishment, but you already targeted "fear" and since we are arguing, I have to wonder why you chose that one emotion. Is it because it's associated with weakness?

It's true I have fears tied into the medical establishment, but I wasn't planning on discussing that with you, because when I argue against ObamaCare, it's my choice to do it from a more intellectual standpoint (did I mention I'm a Capricorn?)

So maybe you think I have a pattern of vagueness in my life. Okay. I have tried *really hard* to articulate my political positions clearly here, but I am still seen as vague?

Are you just not familiar with someone as idiosyncratic as myself? Do you take offense to someone not even fitting the patterns because it renders your pattern-seeing obsolete? (Turning the tables on you.)

quote:

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Sometimes you find yourself to be an authority on the things you post, and other times you give the impression that you're not really as deep into it as you've made yourself out to be.

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About some things I am more informed than others, but I wouldn't consider myself an expert on anything, so I am open to being corrected (appreciate it, in fact.)

quote:

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What I'm wondering is why the need? What's so terrible about being you, that you can't own who you are or what you stand for?

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Did you really just say that? That's pretty deep.

What the hell. *plunks down in your psychologist's armchair*

I dunno AG, my friend. I do feel like I can't be myself under an oppressive government, so I resent people defending the very force that makes me feel like everything about me is wrong. Ever see the criteria for ending up on a terror watch list? There are a lot of harmless activities (like supporting Ron Paul) that are now officially suspect. That does get under my skin.

...'Ever feel like everything you say on an online forum is being watched and recorded, so you don't even post the links you REALLY want to post, for fear it might give the wrong impression?

I don't travel because I cannot stand the TSA. How dare anyone defend Obama when he expanded the TSA so much?

I guess underneath it all I do feel like you people who love Obama also love the status quo which is making me feel like there is something *wrong* with me. I'm an extremist, conspiratorial...whatever.

That's a dangerous thing to be in a land where such things are not tolerated the way they used to be.

Edit: I mean political dissidents, even us peaceful ones, tend to suffer the more tyranny sets in.

Moon conjunct Pluto are you?? I thought you were a Virgo moon...you're older than me? I'm a Libra Pluto.

posted November 14, 2012 09:25 AM            

But of course, that's my own fault, as I have known for a while that it's basically a waste of time to try and reason with AG.

So I only have my naivete to blame, for being baited like that.

On the other hand, others who are confused about me might not be after the seeing the above revelations, so I might not hear that accusation again, that I am just vague and slippery.

posted November 14, 2012 09:40 AM            

quote:

---

But of course, that's my own fault, as I have known for a while that it's basically a waste of time to try and reason with AG.

So I only have my naivete to blame, for being baited like that.

---

------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted November 14, 2012 10:35 AM            

Rather I agree or not with one`s politics/beliefs here, the extent of respect, clarity, and patience shown is inspiring!!

posted November 14, 2012 10:44 AM            

Not only so, but it would seem that as things have come to light my deductions were correct.

posted November 14, 2012 10:58 AM            

You and your deductions!

posted November 14, 2012 11:34 AM            

I think there's a better way of addressing the ways I might make a person uncomfortable than trying to claim I'm beyond reason. Reason isn't my issue.

My wife makes fun of a claim I made about myself being "extremely curious," but it's true. I've seen the things you've posted. They do seem fearful, and there has been a little avoidance of allowing people a clear picture of who you are or who you might be. I just wanted to look behind the veil, and -low and behold- it's not so different from what I'd supposed.

posted November 14, 2012 11:47 AM            

@faith...a sidenote...lurking in astro yesterday i noted that you apparently have your NN conjunct yesterday's new moon...which puts it conjunct MY MC - and obama's! - and jwhop's AC.

speaking of charts involved, one of the reasons i lean to approval of obama is because he, like myself, is a leo ox with aqua rising, a mutable moon and scorp MC. he also has jupiter in the 12th..as i do. these things make him somewhat familiar to me and i can understand completely that much about this president is just plain NOT SEEN because he doesn't push it on people publicly.

posted November 14, 2012 12:02 PM            

quote:

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but now i can leave without feeling that the balance will be destroyed! hate to see ag dragged through the mud all by himself; i think that period may be over.

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We can only hope.

quote:

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speaking of charts involved, one of the reasons i lean to approval of obama is because he, like myself, is a leo ox with aqua rising, a mutable moon and scorp MC. he also has jupiter in the 12th..as i do. these things make him somewhat familiar to me and i can understand completely that much about this president is just plain NOT SEEN because he doesn't push it on people publicly.

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posted November 14, 2012 12:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I just wanted to look behind the veil, and -low and behold- it's not so different from what I'd supposed.

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You don't see what a jerk you are, though, for requesting private information from me and then acting triumphant that it confirms your suspicions about me having some sort of *issues*?

Whatever! That's you're problem, not mine.

It seems pretty clear to me that you will think whatever you want, nobody's going to change that. You actually LACK curiosity, you are only interested in seeing evidence that your biases are being confirmed (even if they're not. You will just interpret things along that avenue because you have an ego problem...frankly. AcousticGod.)

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I may be more trusting in general, which explains our political divide.

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I don't know what your problem is, apart from the aforementioned tendency to see what you want to see and nothing more.

So you got started liking Obama and your pride prevents you from admitting you ever made a mistake? So you go to ridiculous lengths defending this chump?

posted November 14, 2012 01:13 PM            

I think both of you are endlessly curious and interesting. I hope you find the doorway.