posted November 21, 2012 02:48 PM            

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
But you did respond to me with regard to that post. One would think that you'd read it.

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PLEASE prove me wrong, then. Post what I said! I have looked over that thread twice now, in vain. I was busy talking about the NDAA and resolving a conflict with Linda Jones there, then we talked about the MIAC report.

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Like the fact that you don't seem to know or care about that which you're commenting on? I'm sitting here debating someone that's not interested in knowing how the thing she's against even works.

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I am philosophically against government involvement in health care. And since I don't want to buy insurance, I expect that I will have to pay a penalty.

As for how people will be obtaining health care, I still think many people will be forced into a situation where they cannot get a job that provides insurance, cannot afford even the subsidized insurance, nor qualify for Medicaid. Therefore, they will pay the penalty.

Was it unreasonable for me to stress the plight of this class of people?

It remains to be seen how many people find themselves WORSE off because of the ACA.

Frankly, I don't think anyone can foretell in great detail how it's going play out, because the states have yet to decide whether or not they will even expand Medicaid. So what is your expertise based on?

As for the gov't subsidizing the purchase of insurance...whatever the gov't subsidizes that increases demand tends to just go up in price, leaving the people no further ahead.

Happy Thanksgiving, though.

I saw on another thread that you have Venus and Neptune in Sag? Are they conjunct? I have the conjunction in Sag, 6 degree orb.

posted November 21, 2012 03:20 PM            

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Originally posted by juniperb:
Therein lies the rub. Those who fall between the cracks are already suffering. Obamacare has the dangerous potential to increase the cracks and amount of people who fall into them.

Indeed, time will tell.

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posted November 23, 2012 02:09 PM            

Faith,

I just erased all of my response to you. I find talk about this ridiculous at this point. There's no way to go on without me getting even more frustrated.

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I am philosophically against government involvement in health care. And since I don't want to buy insurance, I expect that I will have to pay a penalty.

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This sums up your position. All the rest is just filler that you'd like to speculate on, while the real answer is simply time will tell. You don't know that the penalty will be less expensive than obtaining insurance.

Overall, between free health care for the poor, or no health care for the poor, I sense that everyone against my position would choose no health care. The more equitable answer would, of course, be free health care. We have all these institutions in place to protect life, so it's inconsistent to be against everyone having equal access to healthcare. That's the big picture here. Getting caught up in what-ifs doesn't help things.

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I saw on another thread that you have Venus and Neptune in Sag? Are they conjunct? I have the conjunction in Sag, 6 degree orb.

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posted November 23, 2012 03:14 PM            

So maybe our interactions are colored by the fact that my Venus is exactly conjunct your Neptune at 6 Sag, my Neptune at 12 Sag is conjunct your Venus, so we keep talking, thinking maybe harmony is possible

yet

My Mars at 16 Gemini is annoying the hell out of your Mercury (and Venus too, I guess.)

What can I say? Sorry?

I DO have a Pisces moon (square your Mercury, too) so please don't ever accuse me of not wanting to help poor people. I EXIST to try and help them. But I look at the broad picture and see how gov't meddling has been driving up the cost of health care, and has been suppressing the availability of natural cures (what with Congress and the FDA in bed with Big Pharma), and I just don't have *faith* in this path as a long-term fix.

posted November 23, 2012 04:07 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
There's no such thing as free health care. Someone has to provide it. They have to be paid. Someone has to pay them.

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"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

-Dr. Adrian Rogers

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posted November 23, 2012 05:30 PM            

"When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them" <----This adequately describes titans of business, particularly venture capitalists. These people are the 1%. Before the two market collapses of the last century wealth was concentrated at the top, and income disparity was at extreme levels. It displays a poor understanding of economics to believe that society doesn't do better as a whole when there is economic opportunity for people at all income ranges.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. ~John F. Kennedy, inaugural address, January 20, 1961

posted November 23, 2012 08:41 PM            

Wow, you're born on Boxing Day!

Your Saturn is right on my Mars, your Jupiter/NN is conjunct my (15 Cap) sun!

Like you, I have Saturn opposing Mercury, natally.

You're a Rat and I'm a Rabbit...just one more reason we are at odds with each other.

Just curious, is your wife a Sadge?

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It displays a poor understanding of economics to believe that society doesn't do better as a whole when there is economic opportunity for people at all income ranges.

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Hmm, neither Randall nor I suggested that we were against economic opportunity.

And it's not true that I simply don't know my economics. If you mean Keynesian economics...yeah, I've got a long way to go understanding all that, and most of the stock exchange/banker lingo flies over my head, because I never took the time to learn it.

But I've followed enough videos, attended enough lectures, and read enough books by free market economists to have a firm grasp on the free market perspective, and I do believe that free market capitalism can lead to a prosperous, happy society.

"Crony capitalism" is all we've had in the USA for the last century. And I'm against that.

Edit: Do you pay attention to the fact that your 1H and 7H are intercepted? Does it seem significant for you in any way?

Nevermind the nosey question if it bothers you, but I'm talking to someone else with the same thing and am curious about it.

posted November 24, 2012 12:37 PM            

I like the Shark Tank, and it's British counterpart the Dragon's Den.

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Just curious, is your wife a Sadge?

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Yup, with a lot of Scorpio.

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Hmm, neither Randall nor I suggested that we were against economic opportunity.

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"You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." <---the last line of your quote. Dividing it, ensuring that all people have a decent shot of getting ahead if they want to, does multiply wealth, and when everyone's standard of living is raised (like the 90s), everyone is happier. The quote was something a person that doesn't like taxes would say, but taxes are and have been dangerously low, and now we have a huge debt as a direct result (that's not to say that the economy didn't have a hand in it as well, but overall taxes are lower than they should be. No businessman would run the country collecting so little in taxes.).

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Your Saturn is right on my Mars, your Jupiter/NN is conjunct my (15 Cap) sun!

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I think that means my Saturn is quincunx your Sun. My Saturn isn't nice to your chart overall from the sounds of things. It's on your Mars, square your Moon, quincunx your Sun...lord knows what else.

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You're a Rat and I'm a Rabbit...just one more reason we are at odds with each other.

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Good call.

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Edit: Do you pay attention to the fact that your 1H and 7H are intercepted? Does it seem significant for you in any way?

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Actually, I think it's the 6th and 12th houses. Intercepted means that the house contains the entirety of a sign. I just read some interpretations, and I think I relate more to the 6th/12th house interp than the Taurus/Scorpio interp.

Hmm...now I'm reading a second sight, Bob Marks, and the implication is that you're right. Although it seems as if he's calling houses like my 1st and 7th "duplicated signs," because they do double work being at the cusp of two houses. Oh, but then his interps are for houses like my 6th and 12th.

"Also, see which signs appear on two houses. The functions of these “duplicated signs” and the areas of your life affected by the houses they occupy can give you an escape hatch from the interceptions." http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/Intercepted_signs.htm

posted November 25, 2012 11:27 AM            

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They weren't able to afford healthcare before, and now you fear they still won't be able to afford healthcare. The only difference is that before you weren't concerned that they were already in the cracks. That's an argument of convenience more than anything.

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Assumptions AG Of course I was concerned they were in the cracks. I know many of these people and it is a real concern then and more so now. Now they will have a monetary penality to pay for the lack of purchasing what they couldn`t afford in the first place.

To assume these folks did not wish health care is foolish. Also, to assume they will be able to now afford what they couldn`t in the past, is also foolish.

posted November 25, 2012 02:15 PM            

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Now they will have a monetary penality to pay for the lack of purchasing what they couldn`t afford in the first place.

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Now they'll ALSO have a significant subsidy to help them fund their health care. What they couldn't afford before, may now be more affordable. That's the point.

Here's where people can read all about the Medicaid portion of the Supreme Court ruling: http://www.natlawreview.com/article/analysis-us-supreme-court-upholds-affordable-care-act-roberts-rules

The Supreme Court only disallowed the government's punishment of states not expanding Medicaid. What we're left with after the Supreme Court ruling is that the government will provide states those funds to expand their Medicaid to match the guidelines of the ACA (The government will pay for 100% of healthcare for those newly eligible people). If states, for whatever reason, decline to use those funds for that purpose then the funds will no longer be offered. The Supreme Court ruling only mandates that the government can't rescind the existing funding for the state's previous Medicaid plan.

posted November 25, 2012 03:57 PM            

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What they couldn't afford before, may now be more affordable. That's the point.

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May...

I think we agree assumptions don`t feed the bulldog.

Currently we don`t know the facts and are all trying to understand, assume and hope for the best end result.

posted November 26, 2012 07:51 AM            

The financial markets are inherently stacked against the average schlub. It's inherently an unfair bet designed to skin the average individual and chop him up into parts to be spit out by the vultures. Think you can consistently beat the odds at the blackjack table at Vegas? I don't care if you count cards, it's not possible over the long run.

Real estate has a liquidity premium attached and capital gains come at the risk of financial bankruptcy. Never heard of anyone ever making a true fortune on income generating property.

There is no easy way to make a fortune. You earn it the old fashioned way and you save. Then you invest in business ventures and hope you strike it. I know I did. I made it by myself into the 1%. Everybody can if they want to and put it a real effort. The trouble is that there are a lot of whinners want it to fall on their laps without too much work.

The irony is that the Obama energy policy, which I wholly disagree with, is enrichening a lot of bankers, including myself. Alternative energy is like a windfall to the bankers and lawyers, and the liberals still do not understand that.

posted November 26, 2012 09:03 AM            

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
"You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." <---the last line of your quote. Dividing it, ensuring that all people have a decent shot of getting ahead if they want to, does multiply wealth, and when everyone's standard of living is raised (like the 90s), everyone is happier.

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A free market provides equal opportunity for growth; socialism provides equal opportunity to reach a glass ceiling and go no further. It de-incentizives work.

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
The quote was something a person that doesn't like taxes would say, but taxes are and have been dangerously low, and now we have a huge debt as a direct result (that's not to say that the economy didn't have a hand in it as well, but overall taxes are lower than they should be. No businessman would run the country collecting so little in taxes.).

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I side with Ron Paul who argues that the government is a poor investor. It has botched things up monumentally already. You want to give them MORE money to blow?

Debt = money

The Fed loves monetizing the debt because they get interest off the loans.

Plus, factor in the inflationary tax that we ultimately pay, especially when the effects all this quantitative easing play out, and you might re-think your notion that we don't pay enough.

Some say we have already fallen off the "Fiscal Cliff" but have yet to make impact with the ground.

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Actually, I think it's the 6th and 12th houses. Intercepted means that the house contains the entirety of a sign....

"Wherever Gemini is located in our horoscopes, it gives us the ability to quickly gather information and objectively. Sagittarius is the sign of generalities. It takes the details Gemini gathers and puts them together into principles." That sums up my intellect pretty well.

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posted November 26, 2012 12:17 PM            

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The financial markets are inherently stacked against the average schlub. It's inherently an unfair bet designed to skin the average individual and chop him up into parts to be spit out by the vultures. Think you can consistently beat the odds at the blackjack table at Vegas? I don't care if you count cards, it's not possible over the long run.

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You wouldn't have ANYONE that's made a fortune on the stock market if what you're saying were the case. We know that there have been. I agree that it's no get rich quick scheme, but to characterize it as being as bad as a Vegas card table is inaccurate.

I don't believe the markets are stacked against you either. Each company represented is doing what it can to progress the equity of the company in a responsible way for the stock holder's benefit.

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Real estate has a liquidity premium attached and capital gains come at the risk of financial bankruptcy. Never heard of anyone ever making a true fortune on income generating property.

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I agree that real estate is messy (at least I wouldn't want to go that route), but I think we all have frames of reference as to how money has been made in the property investment business. I can't believe you've never heard of anyone that's made a fortune on income generating property. Google "real estate mogul." It should be that easy.

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There is no easy way to make a fortune. You earn it the old fashioned way and you save.

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I don't know precisely what you mean by this, but I do know that if you only spent money on an S&P index fund 20 years ago, you'd have over a 300% return on investment with your only responsiblity being reinvesting dividends. That's not hard work, and I don't think anyone should be characterizing it as such. This is why wealthy people tend to be invested pretty heavily in the stock market.

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A free market provides equal opportunity for growth; socialism provides equal opportunity to reach a glass ceiling and go no further. It de-incentizives work.

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No one has advocated for a purely Socialist model in America...at least not here. In countries that are more socialistic than we are, there are still business tycoons, so I don't know that I agree with your assumption that socialism de-incentivizes work. People enjoy exploiting their own talents for gain when they can.

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(Summarized) taxes

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posted November 26, 2012 05:12 PM            

Why don`t you start a thread on some of them and I can learn while others in the know can discuss with you

posted November 26, 2012 05:29 PM            

USA is already rather Socialist; I see it as a matter of proportion or relativity. What would a "pure" model be like?

@pire It's true that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That's the same, anywhere you go. But America still has a maverick spirit about it, and many people here are dedicated to keeping it a "land of opportunity" even for those who don't graduate college or follow a traditional route to financial security.