posted February 06, 2013 08:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

...being cruel, heartless, and evil with the "collateral damage" (and the Pentagon redefining the term doesn't redefine the reality) is also destructive to our security and should be troubling to our conscience as well. And we might get a lot further in our "war on terror" if we learned to reach out to those Muslims who suffer under it rather than treating them all as guilty by association.

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I don't think there really is a "war on terror," I see it as a war for resources. If they wanted to prevent Islamic terrorists from attacking us on US soil, they could merely stop allowing radical Muslims into the country, and start deporting the people on the Terror Watch list instead of just watching them. They have the surveillance capability for that.

I think it's very obvious that the wars are about natural resources, mainly. That's why the US is currently invading Africa.

But anyway, even if I believed that the wars were about nabbing the extremists (these awful people who fight back when we occupy their countries! These psychos!)...I agree, the collateral damage should NOT be ignored.

186 Children in Pakistan Killed By Drones

The dehumanization of Muslims in the US is very similar to the dehumanization of Jews by Nazis. I'm not saying Jews are like Muslims, not at all. But I'm saying people have been trained to not see the Muslims' humanity, and therefore they are indifferent to whatever becomes of them...even the children.

posted February 06, 2013 09:06 PM            

I'll admit that other countries don't seem to have the problems we do with extremists, and that's at least in part because Canada and the like don't meddle in their affairs for corrupt reasons the way we do...and those countries didn't seem to get struck (with the possible exception of France, not sure what's up with them) until they joined our coalition.

If it were up to me I'd rather offer sanctuary for people fleeing hell holes like Iran, though at the same time I'd want refugees who committed honor killings, punitive rapes, and even who predated on their own community stomped on, though I'd hope anyone would get stomped on for actions like that. And that includes those who aid and abet it with their silence, but again that's a standard I'd hold for all, including the Catholic Church and other organizations that cover up, aid & abet inexcusable activities (and then have the nerve to say they have better morals than the rest of us).

posted February 06, 2013 09:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
It's the fact that, in spite of BLATANT and OBVIOUS signs that the man is complicit in enacting a very sinister agenda, his defenders refuse to see the facts for what they are.

Even his Executive Orders are explained away with crazy excuses like, "He only did it under pressure from Congress," which have no basis in reality...and Obama's defenders are very, very lazy about obtaining proof to back these excuses. They prefer to work by assumption, and they expect their assumptions to be sufficient in debates.

It's this total departure from reality that brings on religious analogies.

Most people who support Obama do it by faith.

You can't reason with them any more than you can reason with any other brainwashed cult member.

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Yep, some people like Kat won't see it. I guess, she won't have to go to the detention camp

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posted February 06, 2013 11:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:

The dehumanization of Muslims in the US is very similar to the dehumanization of Jews by Nazis. I'm not saying Jews are like Muslims, not at all. But I'm saying people have been trained to [b]not see the Muslims' humanity, and therefore they are indifferent to whatever becomes of them...even the children.
*edited[/B]

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This has struck me for years.
When I was a military spouse, I tried to start a book club with some of my friends. Everyone was enthusiastic, and then it fell incredibly flat after I picked a first selection - Lipstick Jihad (actually a very pro-American book written by a young woman who's family had fled Iran once Khomeni came to power).
Only one person showed up.
We had a lovely talk, but, dam - I had had initial "yes"s from almost 10 people.

I asked one of my friends, at the time a Lt Col who I respected as a thoughtful person, why she hadn't come and she said, "Well, we might be going to war with them soon, and I just don't want to think about them as people."
Flabbergasted, I responded with, "But the author's an American who's writing about her experiences betwee..."
"I'm not reading that book."

I was so put off by everyone's reaction that I let the idea die...
...and then did a report on (the inklings of) civil society in Iran.

posted February 07, 2013 05:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
^^

Actually, it's more how people who supported him did so because Obama promised to change what Bush got going on with the USA PATRIOT Act, wars, detention camps, etc, but as soon as Obama won the war protests petered out to almost non-existent, detention camps and police state abuses no longer mattered, and bringing any of this up, or the use of drones, killing people without trial (which is far worse than waterboarding them without trial) and Obama supporters get all upset and excuse him. I know very well that they ONLY do it because he's a Democrat. If he were a Republican then many who defend Obama would be shrieking about the abuses of power as well. And that being able to see no wrong on the part of Obama, and thinking that he, unlike virtually all other politicians, means really well is what gets people frustrated.

'Course many Republicans are just as bad and hypocritical (whether it's excusing their own guy and/or treating Obama as more like Satan instead of Jesus no matter what), but that doesn't excuse Obama worshipers, it just means many Obama excusers get to see their own reflection in the people they oppose, or put another way the pot gets to see the kettle is black without realizing its own color. And unfortunately while these double standards dominate the masses then actual change will never come.

Of course not everyone has a double standard. Some Democrats & Republicans really do judge politicians by their actions rather than party affiliation, but they definitely seem to be the exception to me.

More:
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/08/repulsive_progressive_hypocrisy/

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posted February 07, 2013 07:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

If it were up to me I'd rather offer sanctuary for people fleeing hell holes like Iran, though at the same time I'd want refugees who committed honor killings, punitive rapes, and even who predated on their own community stomped on, though I'd hope anyone would get stomped on for actions like that.

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Oh yes! I hope it's clear, I'm all for justice. But I am probably more of a non-interventionist than you (?) Because even though the oppression people suffer under sharia law upsets me very much, I don't want the US to invade countries over that. I think US meddling is one factor keeping these countries desperate, and desperation only feeds the religious crime.

Even when we try to "help," often all we're doing is installing a puppet who will cooperate with our demands...but I guess that goes without saying.

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Btw, you might like this...

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posted February 07, 2013 07:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mockingbird:

I asked one of my friends, at the time a Lt Col who I respected as a thoughtful person, why she hadn't come and she said, "Well, we might be going to war with them soon, and I just don't want to think about them as people."

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Yes.

Really sad.

What's sadder to me is when you have people dehumanizing them for apparently no reason, or against all reason. One of my friends, a very ardent Christian who I think may excommunicate me eventually because I don't love Jesus enough...I was at her house one day and she started going off about Muslims.

There was so much venom in her voice I was just like

I told her that I had three Muslim roommates in college, and they were sweet people, and I got really close to two of them, so I don't like her assuming these friends of mine were evil.

She said something like, "They would turn on you on a dime." I said they were moderate, nominal Muslims, and she insisted there is no such thing...they all have this kernel of evil inside, ready to pop and turn them into jihadists.

posted February 07, 2013 07:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

Some people voted for Obama who aren't excusing all his actions.

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Right. Believe it or not, pire, some people love truth more than they love protecting their egos.

And I don't think this forum dynamic ought to be about tip-toeing around the delicate feelings of people who can't stand to have the guy they went all the way to the voting booth for, criticized.

Usually...believe it or not...I am exceedingly polite. But when someone is threatening to kill Americans with drones, without due process...I don't care WHO it is, I'm going to b!tch about them as vehemently as possible.

Come to think of it, I'm against drone killings altogether, they are too inaccurate, there is too much collateral damage. So here I am protesting.

posted February 07, 2013 08:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
I know you look at both and I am encouraged by your open intelligent mind and heart.

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Thanks, juni. And I really love and respect your sense of fairness. Along with your open intelligent mind and heart.

posted February 07, 2013 08:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Yes.

Really sad.

What's sadder to me is when you have people dehumanizing them for apparently no reason, or against all reason. One of my friends, a very ardent Christian who I think may excommunicate me eventually because I don't love Jesus enough...I was at her house one day and she started going off about Muslims.

There was so much venom in her voice I was just like

I told her that I had three Muslim roommates in college, and they were sweet people, and I got really close to two of them, so I don't like her assuming these friends of mine were evil.

She said something like, "They would turn on you on a dime." I said they were moderate, nominal Muslims, and she insisted there is no such thing...they all have this kernel of evil inside, ready to pop and turn them into jihadists.

My friend sounds like an awful person from this description, but she isn't...apart from the religion and wacko politics, she's great (it'd take me a long time to list all my reasons for saying so.) It just shows how many different kinds of people are zombie-fied by the rampant bigotry against Muslims in our culture.

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You guys don't understand that the radicals want sharia law EVERYPLACE. That means you in the birka and you having your clitoris cut off. The Moderates are afraid to say 'Boo", just like most people are. Know what these people want!

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posted February 07, 2013 08:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
You guys don't understand that the radicals want sharia law EVERYPLACE. That means you in the birka and you having your clitoris cut off. The Moderates are afraid to say 'Boo", just like most people are. Know what these people want!

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posted February 07, 2013 08:18 AM            

Jon Stewart on Obama's drone targets of US Citizens:

Part One

Part Two

Pretty good, but it ends on a disturbingly soft note...as if the topic at hand is not Americans being set up for murder under totally ambiguous guidelines.

posted February 07, 2013 08:47 AM            

Obama's Rules for Assassinating US Citizens

posted February 07, 2013 09:00 AM            

Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

Excerpts, bold mine:

quote:

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The most extremist power any political leader can assert is the power to target his own citizens for execution without any charges or due process, far from any battlefield. The Obama administration has not only asserted exactly that power in theory, but has exercised it in practice. In September 2011, it killed US citizen Anwar Awlaki in a drone strike in Yemen, along with US citizen Samir Khan, and then, in circumstances that are still unexplained, two weeks later killed Awlaki's 16-year-old American son Abdulrahman with a separate drone strike in Yemen.

Since then, senior Obama officials including Attorney General Eric Holder and John Brennan, Obama's top terrorism adviser and his current nominee to lead the CIA, have explicitly argued that the president is and should be vested with this power. Meanwhile, a Washington Post article from October reported that the administration is formally institutionalizing this president's power to decide who dies under the Orwellian title "disposition matrix".

When the New York Times back in April, 2010 first confirmed the existence of Obama's hit list, it made clear just what an extremist power this is, noting: "It is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be approved for targeted killing." The NYT quoted a Bush intelligence official as saying "he did not know of any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former president". When the existence of Obama's hit list was first reported several months earlier by the Washington Post's Dana Priest, she wrote that the "list includes three Americans".

What has made these actions all the more radical is the absolute secrecy with which Obama has draped all of this. Not only is the entire process carried out solely within the Executive branch - with no checks or oversight of any kind - but there is zero transparency and zero accountability. The president's underlings compile their proposed lists of who should be executed, and the president - at a charming weekly event dubbed by White House aides as "Terror Tuesday" - then chooses from "baseball cards" and decrees in total secrecy who should die. The power of accuser, prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner are all consolidated in this one man, and those powers are exercised in the dark.

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My question is this: If the person is that much of a threat, why can't they be tried in court? If the Executive Branch has evidence that these people are going to commit an act of terrorism, why can't they just haul them in for a trial?

Why is execution without trial the sentence for affiliation with an "associated" Al-Qaida group...why can't they just be tried for treason? And why aren't those "associated" groups listed publicly so everyone gets the option to stay away from them? It's like the Obama administration just would rather kill. They'd rather catch people unawares.

posted February 07, 2013 09:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I understand that, but I also understand that most Muslims ARE NOT radical.

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YES, I agree. I could be friends with a Moderate Muslim, easily, BUT the Moderates will never speak up against the radicals. They are more afraid than you or I to speak up. In fact, the radicals hate them, even worse than the Jews.

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posted February 07, 2013 10:25 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
YES, I agree. I could be friends with a Moderate Muslim, easily, BUT the Moderates will never speak up against the radicals. They are more afraid than you or I to speak up. In fact, the radicals hate them, even worse than the Jews.

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Au contraire Ami IQ and Venus speak their beautiful minds often( and a few others here ) . I have many moderate Muslim Friends and they are very vocal.
Dearborn MI has the largest population of Muslims in the western world and I am blessed to know many wonderful families who are active and changing things around. .

(imho) Your opinions are weak and don`t support my experience .

posted February 07, 2013 10:43 AM            

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posted February 07, 2013 11:38 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
IQ is not a Muslim, I don't think, but if you are having that PERSONAL experience, you don't hear it on the news or a national stage, very often, if at all. Can you name some Moderate Muslims who stand up in an outspoken way against the terrorists?

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posted February 07, 2013 11:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
IQ is not a Muslim, I don't think, but if you are having that PERSONAL experience, you don't hear it on the news or a national stage, very often, if at all. Can you name some Moderate Muslims who stand up in an outspoken way against the terrorists?

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Ami Anne, of course we DON~T hear it on the news. It don`t fit with the agenda. IF you are indeed interested, start by reading Detroit MI newspapers and see just what is up with the moderates Go to the source rather than whodunit`s like Mr Limbaugh.

posted February 07, 2013 12:07 PM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted February 07, 2013 12:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I understand that, but I also understand that most Muslims ARE NOT radical.

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posted February 07, 2013 12:27 PM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted February 07, 2013 12:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
No one is SAYING all Muslims are bad. I asked Juni a simple, respectful question.

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posted February 07, 2013 01:18 PM            

this pakistani girl malaala (?) who was shot for insisting on going to school, is also now on the fatwa list.

this practice of branding all muslims as either radical or sheep only makes the moderates hide MORE.