posted September 21, 2013 07:50 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:
"I'm your huckleberry! Not a Socialist, but definitely your huckleberry"...acoustic

Well, since you put yourself forth as a member of the canine hound species, I think you're definitely overreaching.

I've got you down in my book as a toy poodle.

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Toy Poodle

The yip and yap but say nothing.

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Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.

posted September 22, 2013 04:40 PM            

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Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.

posted September 25, 2013 11:27 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
From the booklet by Jews for Justice

[b]The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

“[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the ‘rightful’ possession of the ‘Jewish people’ to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

“Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.” Zionist writer Ahad Ha’am, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

“An article by Yitzhak Epstein, published in Hashiloah in 1907...called for a new Zionist policy towards the Arabs after 30 years of settlement activity...Like Ahad-Ha’am in 1891, Epstein claims that no good land is vacant, so Jewish settlement meant Arab dispossession...Epstein’s solution to the problem, so that a new “Jewish question” may be avoided, is the creation of a bi-national, non-exclusive program of settlement and development. Purchasing land should not involve the dispossession of poor sharecroppers. It should mean creating a joint farming community, where the Arabs will enjoy modern technology. Schools, hospitals and libraries should be non-exclusivist and education bilingual...The vision of non-exclusivist, peaceful cooperation to replace the practice of dispossession found few takers. Epstein was maligned and scorned for his faintheartedness.” Israeli author, Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, “Original Sins.”

and here's my grandmother:
“The pogroms forced many Jews to leave Russia. Societies known as ‘Lovers of Zion,’ which were forerunners of the Zionist organization, convinced some of the frightened emigrants to go to Palestine. There, they argued, Jews would rebuild the ancient Jewish ‘Kingdom of David and Solomon,’ Most Russian Jews ignored their appeal and fled to Europe and the United States. By 1900, almost a million Jews had settled in the United States alone.” “Our Roots Are Still Alive” by The People Press Palestine Book Project

It goes on, for anyone who is interested to describe the mistaken history of "Palestine" as originally Jewish, dispels the myth that the region was barren when Jews arrived only to be made to flourish by their cleverness and industry...

In fact every separatist notion promulgated by the version you offer, Ami, is riddled with falsehoods.

Anyway, I am done trying to have a reasonable conversation on this issue and I am not about to get into a slanging match.

I doubt you will even look let alone open your mind to the fact that every story has more than one side. Be that as you will.[/B]

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Correct me if im mistaken, but wasnt palestine a place under british control during the time it was given to the jewish people?

Yes, some of the jewish organizations and their actions at the time can be named "terror" by the definition of the word.

About the jewish national fund... if i buy a land and does not sell it, for any reason, of what am im guilty of? Not apeaking that recently israel evacuated an entire settelment in order to return land that was owned by arabs. (And yes, the reasons for its unlawfull taking is one of the mistakes ksrael made during its fonding, yet havent the americans done the same?)

posted September 25, 2013 11:51 AM            

The piece above was posted by me in response to Ami's declaring that NO JEW WOULD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO with me because I sometimes criticize Israel policies.

It was written by Jews who see the history of Israel somewhat differently than Ami Ann, you see.

I am glad that some reparations of land have been made by Israel to Arabs. However I am still concerned that the new definition of Jewish, if you come from Russia, is determined by BLOOD/DNA tests, basically saying that Judaism is a race not a religion. As a descendant of both Ashkenazi and sephardic jews, I would have to differ with that. My Ashkenazi Russian Jewish grandmother would roll over in her grave to hear it too. Being Jewish cost her her family and neighbours and she lived with PTSD for the rest of her life.

The main point however was that Israel is not perfect, that putting it in the middle of Arab nations and displacing Arabs to do so was not a wise move on the part of the Occupying British and Allies, and that the back story is far more complex than narrowminded people on either side will admit.

posted September 25, 2013 01:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
hi doomlord!

The piece above was posted by me in response to Ami's declaring that NO JEW WOULD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO with me because I sometimes criticize Israel policies.

It was written by Jews who see the history of Israel somewhat differently than Ami Ann, you see.

I am glad that some reparations of land have been made by Israel to Arabs. However I am still concerned that the new definition of Jewish, if you come from Russia, is determined by BLOOD/DNA tests, basically saying that Judaism is a race not a religion. As a descendant of both Ashkenazi and sephardic jews, I would have to differ with that. My Ashkenazi Russian Jewish grandmother would roll over in her grave to hear it too. Being Jewish cost her her family and neighbours and she lived with PTSD for the rest of her life.

The main point however was that Israel is not perfect, that putting it in the middle of Arab nations and displacing Arabs to do so was not a wise move on the part of the Occupying British and Allies, and that the back story is far more complex than narrowminded people on either side will admit.

And American involvement there is no better or worse than British or other occupying colonialists at other times. No ANGER, just realism. However it is impossible to discuss these things here without Mme Vendetta getting into high gear with her hatred, so I have nothing more to say here in GU about it.

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I am from russia, and no, no blood tests or dna tests were made, and not to many people from the community we know so you can check the blood tests mark away.

I do not deny that certain religious organizations (often supporting extreme opinions) use those on people, yet i have not seen the goverment give hand to it.

Yes it is a problematic area that the country does not seperate religion from race, or that it takes race seriously enough so it was written in your ID card in the past (and taken down for all the wrong reasons) and jt foes carry problematic legal issues, but all are made becuse of the problematic combination of a religious country and a democratic one too, and with a lot of complications going from all sides.

Im not jewish btw, not by any law, and so cannot marry here.

posted September 25, 2013 01:44 PM            

You underline my point by being an Israeli who does not 100% back every little stance of the government. That a nonJew may not marry there is another attempt at eradicating the nonJewish population by denying them offical offspring, is it not? Another attempt to bring about a BLOODLINE racial identity for Israel.

My only real problem with Israel supporters is their vicious denial that there is any ground whatsoever for criticism, and that anyone who criticizes anything Israel does is worse than a traitor and should be tarred and feathered symbolically or physically.

posted September 25, 2013 02:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
I believe this was a recent development. The link I posted (in the closed thread "one drop rule") would explain more.

You underline my point by being an Israeli who does not 100% back every little stance of the government. That a nonJew may not marry there is another attempt at eradicating the nonJewish population by denying them offical offspring, is it not? Another attempt to bring about a BLOODLINE racial identity for Israel.

My only real problem with Israel supporters is their vicious denial that there is any ground whatsoever for criticism, and that anyone who criticizes anything Israel 8does is worse than a traitor and should be tarred and feathered symbolically or physically.

EVERY country has issues that should be criticized. Israel is no different in that sense. Trying to silence criticism by calling those who speak out "antisemitic" and worse is totalitarian thinking.

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Again, i keep good pace with recent happenings and with people who recently started living here and i hav yet to hear of it, actually, it could make quite the outrage here.

There is much criticism going on here about different issues, but i thnik the pleasure is given only to thkse who live that reality, instesd of the mouth-shutting that is done to people in other countries.

In reality, i do understand your logic, but i dont see it as the central problem, since one can have children without being married, and a status of "life partner" can be given to a couple even if not married.

Mainly, the problem is with religion, and since all marrieges go through religious institutions, non religious people cant officially marry here.

posted September 25, 2013 02:10 PM            

As in the gay marriage debate, refusing "real" marriage to any class of citizen basically relegates them to Second Class citizenhood.

posted September 25, 2013 03:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
here is the link for you sweetie, from the Israel Times...
http://newobserveronline.com/israel-starts-using-dna-to-check-for-jewishness-of-imm igrants/

As in the gay marriage debate, refusing "real" marriage to any class of citizen basically relegates them to Second Class citizenhood.

Despite accusations here I do not think that discussing these things means I want to "push Israel into the sea" or anything even close to that.

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Honey some useless link aint going to change the fact that you wont see any israeli site or news channel talking about this, so thnk twice before believing everything written there.

posted September 25, 2013 11:33 PM            

Just how hard is that to understand? Israel is trying to create a false premise for "jewish" dna,

How about an adopted Jew? Should they be excluded?

Not a personal problem for me, since I have two Jewish grandparents and ONE of them would qualify, though I am not Jewish and don't want to live in Israel anyway. However if my grandmother had wanted to emigrate to Israel under this kind of restriction she would have been barred. I guess she must have been prescient to choose secular America over theocratic Israel.

This is one of the problems of trying to run a theocracy. The ideas of bloodlines and religion get mixed up. Even the Nazis ran into this problem, since not all "pure" Germans were of the same bloodlines.

posted September 25, 2013 11:58 PM            

As usual, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Israel a theocracy? Not hardly.

Oh, and this DNA testing does seem to matter to you...a lot or you wouldn't be flogging the nonsense so hard.

posted September 26, 2013 12:38 AM            

In the first place I brought this topic as a question. It strikes me as not being about determining paternity but determining Jewish descent, as per the article. I will be glad to be proven wrong but we all know that the major media don't always broadcast news deemed "unfit" or unsettling.

My main point is that no DNA test can prove someone's Jewish" heredity.

I mentioned gay marriage as a recent issue regarding classes of citizenship here in the US, nothing to do with israel or you.

posted September 26, 2013 07:32 AM            

"I did not say Israel is a theocracy. I said the tendency is there."...Catalina/katatonic

posted September 26, 2013 07:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:
"I guess she must have been prescient to choose secular America over [b]theocratic Israel."...Catalina/katatonic

"I did not say Israel is a theocracy. I said the tendency is there."...Catalina/katatonic

Spoken like someone who doesn't even know what she's saying.[/B]

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Ha ha ha

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Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.

posted September 26, 2013 08:41 AM            

Rand Paul

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Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.

posted September 26, 2013 01:04 PM            

There are places where reasonable people able to discuss differences without descending to bullying csn be found.

There are many in Israel who share my point of view, and many distinguished jewish people who are appalled that like the nazis the jews now want to be called a race.

In fact, ami herself has pointed out thst jufaism is a religion not a race. Many Arabs share that si-called "jewish" dna. How fitting that in trying to prove their uniqueness the immigration is trending towards excluding jews who can"t show the "right" genes while making it possible for arabs to infiltrate by virtue of a blood test.

I will just remind you that sitting in your isolation pretending to know better than anyone else is what made you 100% wrong about last november and allowed realists to prove you wrong.

A country that cannot be criticized is a totalitarian state. Is that what you want for Israel, Ami?

posted September 26, 2013 01:33 PM            

Our resident Wasp is the kind of gentile who is called a Righteous Gentile by we Jews.

He is honored by Jewish people. He is honored by Israel. He is honored by me and I appreciate him greatly.

Without people like HIM, people like me would not have a homeland of Israel to go to when times get bad and they will due to the ignorance of Anti Semites like...............................

You fill in the blanks, Catalina Bud

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Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.

posted September 26, 2013 01:44 PM            

In fact why are there so many Israelis here? Go blow Princess