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Author Topic:   Sea Levels Are Falling!
Randall
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From: Saturn next to Charmainec
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posted November 12, 2013 11:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And some graphs:
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2010/03/sea-level-change-last-120-million-years.html?m=1

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted November 13, 2013 08:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great graphs!

I wonder where the purveyors of doom.."OMG we're all going to drown from rising sea levels"...thought all that water from melting glaciers was going to end up..if not in earth's oceans?

Rising sea levels after the Ice Age ended is exactly what logical, rational people would expect.

Rising temperatures after the Little Ice Age ended...about 1350AD to 1850AD is exactly what logical, rational people would expect.

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Randall
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posted November 13, 2013 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The alarmists are neither logical, nor rational.

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pire
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posted November 13, 2013 01:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pire     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
New York Times

By NICK MADIGAN

Published: November 10, 2013


South Florida Faces Ominous Prospects From Rising Waters


MIAMI BEACH — In the most dire predictions, South Florida’s delicate barrier islands, coastal communities and captivating subtropical beaches will be lost to the rising waters in as few as 100 years.

Further inland, the Everglades, the river of grass that gives the region its fresh water, could one day be useless, some scientists fear, contaminated by the inexorable advance of the salt-filled ocean. The Florida Keys, the pearl-like strand of islands that stretches into the Gulf of Mexico, would be mostly submerged alongside their exotic crown jewel, Key West.

“I don’t think people realize how vulnerable Florida is,” Harold R. Wanless, the chairman of the geological sciences department at the University of Miami, said in an interview last week. “We’re going to get four or five or six feet of water, or more, by the end of the century. You have to wake up to the reality of what’s coming.”

Concern about rising seas is stirring not only in the halls of academia but also in local governments along the state’s southeastern coast.

The four counties there — Broward, Miami-Dade, Monroe and Palm Beach, with a combined population of 5.6 million — have formed an alliance to figure out solutions.

Long battered by hurricanes and prone to flooding from intense thunderstorms, Florida is the most vulnerable state in the country to the rise in sea levels.

Even predictions more modest than Professor Wanless’s foresee most of low-lying coastal Florida subject to increasingly frequent floods as the polar ice caps melt more quickly and the oceans surge and gain ground.

Much of Florida’s 1,197-mile coastline is only a few feet above the current sea level, and billions of dollars’ worth of buildings, roads and other infrastructure lies on highly porous limestone that leaches water like a sponge.

But while officials here and in other coastal cities, many of whom attended a two-day conference on climate change last week in Fort Lauderdale, have begun to address the problem, the issue has gotten little traction among state legislators in Tallahassee.

The issue appears to be similarly opaque to segments of the community — business, real estate, tourism — that have a vested interest in protecting South Florida’s bustling economy.

“The business community for the most part is not engaged,” said Wayne Pathman, a Miami land-use lawyer and Chamber of Commerce board member who attended the Fort Lauderdale conference. “They’re not affected yet. They really haven’t grasped the possibilities.”

It will take a truly magnificent effort, Mr. Pathman said, to find answers to the critical issues confronting the area. Ultimately, he said, the most salient indicator of the crisis will be the insurance industry’s refusal to handle risk in coastal areas here and around the country that are deemed too exposed to rising seas.

“People tend to underestimate the gravity here, I think, because it sounds far off,” said Ben Strauss, the director of the Program on Sea Level Rise at Climate Central, an independent organization of scientists. “People are starting to tune in, but it’s not front and center. Miami is a boom town now, but in the future that I’m very confident will come, it will be obvious to everyone that the sea is marching inland and it’s not going to stop.”

The effects on real estate value alone could be devastating, Dr. Strauss said. His research shows that there is about $156 billion worth of property, and 300,000 homes, on 2,120 square miles of land that is less than three feet above the high tide line in Florida.

At that same level, Dr. Strauss said, Florida has 2,555 miles of road, 35 public schools, one power plant and 966 sites listed by the Environmental Protection Agency, such as hazardous waste dumps and sewage plants.

The amount of real estate value, and the number of properties potentially affected, rises incrementally with each inch of sea-level rise, he said.

Professor Wanless insists that no amount of engineering proposals will stop the onslaught of the seas. “At two to three feet, we start to lose everything,” he said.

The only answer, he said, is to consider drastic measures like establishing a moratorium on development along coastal areas and to compel residents whose homes are threatened to move inland.

Local officials say they are doing what they can. Jason King, a consultant for the Seven50 Southeast Florida Prosperity Plan, an economic blueprint for seven southeastern counties over the next half-century, said it proposed further replenishing of beaches and mangrove forests, raising roads, and building flood-control gates, backflow preventers and higher sea walls.

Here on Miami Beach, a densely populated 7.5-square-mile barrier island that already becomes flooded in some areas each time there is a new moon or a heavy rain, city officials have approved a $200 million project to retrofit its overwhelmed storm-water system, which now pumps floodwaters onto the island when it should be draining them off, and make other adjustments.

“The sky is not falling, but the water is rising,” said Charles Tear, the Miami Beach emergency management coordinator, who stood at an intersection at the edge of Maurice Gibb Park, just two feet above sea level, that floods regularly.

Mr. Tear said he and other city officials were focused on the more conservative prediction that the seas will rise by five to 15 inches over the next 50 years.

“We can’t look at 100 years,” he said. “We have to look at the realistic side.”

James F. Murley, the executive director of the South Florida Regional Planning Council, was similarly unmoved by the more calamitous predictions.

“We’re not comfortable looking at 2100,” he said, noting that for planning purposes he adhered to a projection that foresaw two feet of sea-level rise by 2060.

Whatever the specifics of the predictions, the Miami Beach city manager, Jimmy L. Morales, said he and his staff had to consider whether “we should adopt more aggressive assumptions” about the effects of climate change.

Officials here are seeking advice from the Netherlands, famous for its highly effective levees and dikes, but the very different topography of Miami Beach and its sister coastal cities does not lend itself to the fixes engineered by the Dutch.

“Ultimately, you can’t beat nature, but you can learn to live with it,” Mr. Morales said. “Human ingenuity is incredible, but do we have the political will? Holland sets aside $1 billion a year for flood mitigation, and we have a lot more coastline than they do.”

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: November 10, 2013

An earlier version of a picture caption with this article misstated the year by which the sea level could rise five or six feet, or more. The year is 2100, not 2010.

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AcousticGod
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From: Pleasanton, CA
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posted November 13, 2013 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Interesting that Wunsch is a believer, yet even he states that the measurements are flawed.

Another indication that you're not paying attention. Read what he has to say before pronouncing him something. He is a totally moderate scientific voice who was embarrassed to have his stance taken out of context by skeptics.

quote:
You are undoubtedly one of the most uninformed/misinformed members ever to post on this forum.

As evidenced by your complete inability to get over on me? You know, if you make such a statement without saying anything remotely smart on the side, it kind of loses it's effect.

quote:
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2010/08/paper-sea-level-rise-not-accelerating.html

Did you go to the study listed by chance? Your blog gave a link: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2009JC005630/abstract

The findings were actually mixed. They did find some acceleration:

    Nevertheless, the South Atlantic as well as the tropical Atlantic are the only basins that show significant acceleration.

Significant acceleration. But, hey, it's just the puny South and Tropical Atlantic basins, right? No biggie.

More recently, in 2013, Wenzel and Schroter wrote:

    Global mean sea level change since 1900 is found to be 1.65 ± 0.26 mm per year on average while local trends range from -4 mm per year to +8 mm per year . These extrema both are found in the tropical Indian Ocean. Although no significant acceleration or deceleration is found for the global mean, local values range from -0.08 mm year**-2 in the tropical Indian ocean south of the equator to +0.10 mm year**-2 in the western tropical Pacific. These extrema are associated with patterns of sea level change that differ significantly from the first half of the analysed period (i.e. 1900 to 1954) to the second half (1955 to 2009). We take this as an indication that long period processes are superimposed on general sea level change. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2013EGUGA..15.5248S

Hmmm...I wonder why the pattern changes in the 1950's. Must just be coincidence.

And there's still no argument against sea levels rising overall, is there? Randall's thread title is still incorrect. The sea level is still trending upward. "no significant acceleration or deceleration is found for the global mean"

2011 study on ground water loss: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2011GeoRL..3817401K

    Furthermore, the rate of groundwater depletion has increased markedly since about 1950, with maximum rates occurring during the most recent period (2000-2008), when it averaged ˜145 km3/yr (equivalent to 0.40 mm/yr of sea-level rise, or 13% of the reported rate of 3.1 mm/yr during this recent period).

In conclusion, this is yet another instance of not really bringing anything to the table. If the goal was proving that sea level isn't rising, there is still no success on either of your parts.

quote:
And some graphs: ]http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2010/03/sea-level-change-last-120-million- years.html?m=1

quote:
Great graphs!

Yeah, great. They show that our present sea level is higher than most of the graph in each graph presented. Sure, that does speak to Jwhop's contention that the sea level has been rising for thousands of years, but in the context of a "Sea Levels Are Falling" thread, it's a true irony to post such a thing. Yeah, it's reasonable for either of you to post about rationality or logic.

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Randall
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posted November 13, 2013 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How is it out of context? He's obviously upset that current measurements cannot substantiate a rise.

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shura
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posted November 13, 2013 10:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
while the easily diverted amuse themselves with yet another climate change debate, the real problems await your attention: overfishing, bottom trawl fishing, marine oil spills, untreated urban sewage disposal, fertilizer and industrial waste runoff, deep sea mining, acidifying oceans, disappearing coral reefs, radioactive waste and chemical weapon disposal, and floating islands of garbage the size of large cities. But don't worry about those pesky little problems staring you in the face. Let's have another look at those graphs!

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted November 13, 2013 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"As evidenced by your complete inability to get over on me? You know, if you make such a statement without saying anything remotely smart on the side, it kind of loses it's effect."...acoustic

Get over on you acoustic? You grossly overestimate your importance in the overall scheme of things. You don't rise to the level of a minor irritant. Perhaps if you were ever right about anything, then perhaps....

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AcousticGod
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posted November 14, 2013 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you're referring to Wunsch, Randall, your apathy is still outgunning your progress. Wunsch isn't some big global warming promoter by any means. He's a moderate. I've told you this before, but I guess you're far too lazy or unconcerned to look into him and his stance. I don't think you get to say he's "obviously" anything if you haven't even begun to look into him.

Shura's a pleasant distraction here.

Oh Jwhop. Compared to you I'm always right about everything. I mean, no one can really take your mantle away from you for being the most likely to come to the wrong conclusion...even regarding any debate you've lost over a period of years. If anything I grossly overestimate your importance by giving anything you say any real credence after this astonishing record you've developed. I can only chalk it up to an abhorrence towards the fake authority you project on subjects you clearly don't understand.

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Catalina
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From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted November 14, 2013 09:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm with shura, I think it matters not if we are warming or can do anything about it, but most of the proposed measures would sure help clean up the oceans and environment, and encourage creativity in finding betyer ways of facilitating our lifestyle, but it's more important to some that no one tell them what to do...and the idea that someone might make money on improving things seems amazingly distasteful to the most capitalist among us...never mind that our current dirty and wasteful methods are heavily subsidized by all us taxpayers...

And if we wait till the proof is undeniable the cost will be so much more than the deniers are worrying about

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Randall
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posted November 14, 2013 09:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
None of the alarmists' dire predictions have come true. Not a one. Cities were supposed to be buried under the oceans by 2013. And yes, I do take issue with the billions being made by propogating these fantastical claims and the resulting baseless fear-mongering.

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jwhop
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posted November 14, 2013 10:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Oh Jwhop. Compared to you I'm always right about everything."...acoustic

Whatever you're smoking acoustic, I recommend you cease and desist immediately.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted November 23, 2013 11:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks God that the idiotic moron leftists open their mouths and let rational people know just how loony-tunes they really are.

Dem Senator: Global warming threatens sports stadiums or something

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) warns sports stadiums are at risk from the "sea level rise effects of climate change," and that climate change specifically threatens hockey and skiing. ....
http://conservatives4palin.com/2013/11/cns-dem-senator-global-warming-threatens-sports-stadiums-or-something.html

Not to mention Tiddlywinks and Beach Snowboarding.

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Randall
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posted November 23, 2013 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This guy is the epitome of an idiot.

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