posted August 07, 2014 05:20 PM            

But it is used as justification and brought up every time anyone suggests Israel was a bad idea or that she is an aggressor.

As a race we have justified slaughtering populations for many reasons. None of which really hold water.

posted August 07, 2014 06:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catalina:
Gas chambers are not the worst weapon of genocide. Neither is Gaza the worst thing going on out there at the moment. Would you prefer to die from bleeding out by govt recruited scalping? How about death by radiation? More people died of systematic persecution in Stalin's Russia than in the holocaust.

But it is used as justification and brought up every time anyone suggests Israel was a bad idea or that she is an aggressor.

As a race we have justified slaughtering populations for many reasons. None of which really hold water.

Violence begets more violence in a descending spiral as MLK pointed out.

---

posted August 07, 2014 06:49 PM            

quote:

---

But Israel is being bashed a lot. Far more than the other parties. That is unfair

---

Do you mean here in GU or globally?

Through social media, , Hammas is keeping the murders and destruction pictures on page one of the news. Israel does not care about public opinion. No news promotions for the public to see so they come across as cold and uncaring.Naturally, leaving them open to poor public relations/opinions

Genocide has occured through out history and I will spare you the history lessons. Every war is dirty bucked up by either greed or religion.

Both sides are commiting murder;plain and simple

posted August 07, 2014 07:56 PM            

I have been saying for weeks that before we cheer or condemn each others causes we need to look to our own attitudes. As Jesus said, he who hasn't sinned cast the stone...

And I have been jumped on by people on both sides for saying "look to yourself" as if that was taking a side.

What are borders anyway? Artificial constructs bound to create conflict. Rulers and subjects and everyone scrabbling to be top of the pile.

The conflict in gaza is exacerbated by one side having state of the art weaponry and funding claiming moral superiority. The crises in other middle east countries are not as interesting because it is "between themselves" though more people are suffering.

If we are ever to outgrow this disgusting behaviour it has to start with ourselves and our attitudes. The easy out in many arguments here in GU is to use verbal fisticuffs and intimidation/demo nisation...and in the world in general people react to all manner of disputes with selfrighteousness and disregard for the equal value of all sides...

The cycle needs breaking. Humanity as a whole needs to grow up and own their attitudes...

posted August 08, 2014 12:34 AM            

The Aquarian Age promises eventual Peace on Earth, but whether we make the transition smoothly or have to endure the temporal threat of global imperialism will depend upon how each of us treats the other

Our "way of life" is morphing fast and the old structures - borders, empires, military dominance and usury as a way of life - are crumbling. It truly is down to our everyday relations and reactions that the change will be made to a more open society...

posted August 08, 2014 10:30 AM            

http://vancouvertraces.weebly.com/poplar-island.html

One reason the Holocaust is so notorious is that other events are not so publicized. The above is part of the story of the elimination of Natives in North America.

Little mention is made of the starving and enslaving of millions of irish people over centuries...the list is endless. (Also above)

When will Israel have enough land/dead enemies to feel "safe"?

posted August 09, 2014 08:31 PM            

Although, I respect all of your views, I am particularly interested in supporting Ami Anne's logical and factual position with regard to the culpability of Hamas and its destructive role in what came out after the Oslo agreement between the PA and Israel.

As I remember, it was Hamas that stood as the biggest obstacle against the formation of a Palestinian State that Arafat had finally accepted as a solution of two states (The Oslo agreement; Every time Israel was to execute the next phase toward the formation of that State, it was Hamas who rushed a day before to commit atrocities against ordinary civilian Jews in Israel, such as blowing up a bus, or a restaurant, or a movie cinema...etc...
Although, the formation of two States that Issak Rabin and Arafat agreed upon represented a big compromise by Israel, and a real future danger against the very existence of Israel, Rabin gave his life for that dream of establishing peace, and Arafat was lying and wanted to use the agreement as a trick in the footsteps of his prophet Mohammed who instructed Muslims even in the Quran never to seek peace unless they are in a weak position as a step to gain power, and to break the peace whenever it is possible.

The Hamas culpabilities in this latest round of combats proved to me beyond any doubt that the Palestinians are led by criminals and by dreamers who will never be satisfied unless they see the complete excrement of the Jews.

What do you think of this quotation by the Syrian psychiatrist, Dr. Wafa Sultan:

"""""Wafa Sultan: The Jews have come from the tragedy (of the Holocaust), and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling. Humanity owes most of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists. 15 million people, scattered throughout the world, united and won their rights through work and knowledge. We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people. The Muslims have turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a Mosque, kill a Muslim, or burn down an embassy. Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them"""""

posted August 09, 2014 11:21 PM            

------------------
Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.

posted August 10, 2014 12:34 AM            

Forgive me for finding it strange that you just pop in to expand on the "position" and logic of someone who has taken the(most ironic!) part of Echo in this thread.

Apart from a few attempts to go pugilistic by jwhop, I dont think this has been a very heated debate. As for other peoples' bloodthirstiness, history is riddled with it. The Abrahamic scriptures are riddled with exhortations to kill and drive out the unbelievers. One might almost think that the God of all three faiths set up a cruel game to pit his children against each other in a never ending contest for a piece of land...

Nor is the thread about who is the villain and who the saintly victim. This situation doesnt fall into such neat categories, and if you want to go back in history there is plenty to debate.

What is important is not to blame or praise hamas or israel but to find a way for humans to live side by side. Perhaps that isn't possible. But neither is exterminating those we consider evil because OUR GOD is better than theirs, our lives are more enlightened than theirs, our wounds are more painful or innocent.

posted August 10, 2014 07:57 AM            

Greetings to you Catalina;

I am glad you have such an appreciation for humanity and fairness, and hence, I am sure you will come around and recognize the fallacy of the argument that sees the Palestinians and Arabs as victims without understanding the Jewish reasons, fears, insecurity, and rights.

I am glad you want a solution, and are not looking for just a side to blame, and so am I !! Let me first say that I am Syrian, and as a Syrian, I was indoctrinated with not only similar slogans that you have brought forward in your posts, but a lot more, and for long time.
I used not to recognize the severity and inhumanity in what suicide bombers did in Israel to the ordinary people of Israel, for I used to see them through the eyes of the indoctrination I had received at an early age as have most Arabs and Muslims; Bombs going in bus stations, in buses, in restaurants in Israel did not move a hair in me since I regarded the Palestinian issue as a struggle for returning Palestinian rights and to apply justice on the Israeli occupiers.
I saw history from the Syrian educational system which smartly confused all Semitic migrations from Yemen thousands of years ago with Arabism. We were told that Canaanites, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Syrianic (Syrians), Arabs etc... were all one thing, they were all Arabs. So, when we read in the Torah that Yahweh promised the land that was called later Palestine by the Romans was originally inhabited by the Canaanites, I automatically considered the actual Palestinian Arabs as the original inhabitants of the land, and therefore We as Arabs lived in that land for ever, prior to the Hebrews.

Being a fanatic about Justice, I wanted Justice be done, Jews be out, and the right of the Palestinians preserved. Little did I really know the real story, and the real history. I must admit that this is the basic of the mind brainwashing that Syrians receive in schools, and the daily Media. But circumstances in one's life some times lead him/her to get real education, and get to know the facts despite all of the brain-washings. By reading neutral history books, books of history away from the required text books, we find that Arabs had nothing to do with other Semitic tribes such as the Canaanites, or the Phoenicians, and that Arabism came to Palestine only 1400 years ago through the Islamic conquest of the followers of Arabic Mohammed, who Arabized the whole Middle East by force, by raping the Middle Eastern women in all of the lands they conquered, and it is enough to know this by reading the Quran today, and finding that when Muslims (Arabs) conquer a land (which they have to do when powerful, and they have conquered many parts of the world): they give the inhabitants three choices: 1- Become Muslims, 2- Pay a heavy penalty called Jezyeh that not many can afford, and 3- Get killed. Those who are killed, will have ther children and women enslaved, raped, and indoctrinated by Islam. As the Egyptian history testifies, those in Egypt who paid Jezyah and stayed Coptic Christians could not speak the Coptic language between each other, if they are caught speaking their own language, their tongues were chopped.

The Khalifah Omar imposed what is called the ( Al Uhdeh Al Omareyh or the Omar Laws of the conquered lands) is on the internet and you can see that the Arab Colonialism is unparalleled in the whole history of mankind. It is much worse than the infamous American Indians story. If you do some research on Khalifah Omar laws on the conquered lands, you will understand.

Well, I brought up the above just to shut the historic lie about the Palestinians having the historical right to the land called Palestine. Their name Palestinians has nothing to do with Palestine as the original inhabitants. The Arabs came to Palestine only 1400 years ago. I want to emphasize that History, the Old Testament, as well as the Quran testify that the Land is Jewish, and for the Jews. The Quran states categorically that (Allah who is supposedly God)promised the Canaan Land to the Jews.

Now, if you find me real Canaanites, I would probably change my opinion and side with them, but Arabs are not Canaanites, and have no rights to Jerusalem or Palestine not historically, and not even religiously (for the religion thing, I also would stun you by the lies of Muslims of having rights in Jerusalem, and would discuss this some time later)/.

Not until I saw terror of Islam in Syria itself, and how the revolutionary Muslims send rockets indiscriminately into cities or villages in Syria to kill - no matter who, just to kill- in order to inflict fear and win politically, and the many suicide bombings by Muslims in all parts of Syria made me realize how criminal these acts are, and that only innocent people who have nothing to do with the political system that Muslims are fighting, and nothing to do with their being with or against the Syrian government, they kill just to kill, no matter who is killed .., I then started to have deep sympathy for the Israelis who had been receiving such terroristic acts for decades before Syria has.
Now, I understood what terrorism is. Before it was done away from people I cared about. Now, I understand what the Israelis have put up with for 50 years or more.

PA president Abass acknowledged in one of his Arabic Interviews that I saw in Youtube - that it was the Palestinians who left their homes in 1948, primarily because they were afraid that the Jews will revenge to the Hebron massacre that Arab committed against Jews in 1936. That thing I wasn't even aware of, as we are only told that Jews committed massacres against Palestinians, and never a word in the opposite direction. ...

I have a lot more to say in subsequent posts, but I started with the above to give a basis for you to rethink your position as I have.

posted August 10, 2014 11:36 AM            

I find it so interesting thst you have come straight to this thread to discuss this issue which is not in the title. How did you stumble upon it?

By the way...As I see you like to be properly respectful you might be interested to know, as indicated at the forum head, that while Ami is A moderator on this board, THE moderator of this forum is Juniperb

Your quote is currently circulating on FB in the form of a video clip of an educated secular woman decrying the primitive behaviour of Fundamentalist Muslims...perhaps she is the same person to whom you attribute it?

I am well aware of the very complex history of the regionand religious conflict that has persevered for over a thousand years there. I do not subscribe to god-given rights of territory...any god, any territory.

posted August 10, 2014 01:40 PM            

For the argument that you do not subscribe to the "God given promise, or God's favoritism", please read my previous post and see that I said that I was ready to side with the Canaanites if they come forward and claim the land. That must tell you that I too do not subscribe to that argument. But when Muslims claim that Israel must be destroyed because the land is a Muslim land for 1400 years (Actually they claim they had been there for ever), and they define any land they have occupied in any fashion as a Muslim Land where they must apply the Sharia law, or dream of returning to, such as like present day Spain, and when they call lands Muslim Lands, I must say that this offends me a great deal.

To say it mildly and without digging so much in history to prove that the land was Jewish or Arab in the first place, let's see if the actual Muslim lands were Muslim to start with?

So, suppose the actual inhabitants of the land the Romans called Palestine had no previous history in it, and that these people date back to only 1948 when they took that land by force or what so ever, what gives others the right to kick them out of it?

Muslims or Arabs now exist in their today's lands in the same fashion Jews came to Palestine in 1948 (if only for the sake of this argument),Such lands belong now to the actual people that inhabit it, so must Israel be now.

Why do we have to look at that small piece of land any differently from looking at Iraq or Syria or Egypt which were Christian Lands prior to the Muslim conquest, and consider them Muslim lands now? Why in hell or in heaven the Muslims refuse to consider a land a place where any body in it can be anything they want to be? Why not have those countries open like the USA, France, Norway, or Spain?

Where the concept of One man/woman, one vote, no matter what their religious belief is? No matter what color their skin is? no matter what skills they have? no matter....etc...? But that is not the case in any of the so called Muslim countries.

Go to Saudi Arabia or to Iran and bring a Bible with you, and let us see if they will let you. Go there and try not to wear a Burka, or a veil, and let us see how long you will stay out of jail or inside the country. It seems we are in agreement that God or Allah or who ever or what ever else should not determine rights or properties people can have, but that argument it seems to me, only applies to Muslims and Arabs in this 21st century.

posted August 10, 2014 04:13 PM            

I see I have some catching up to do.

posted August 11, 2014 08:20 AM            

To appease my old weary eyes, I`m attempting to break down the run on sentences and your lack of paragraphs.
When I can/do, I will he happy to engage you on the issues you brought forth.

posted August 11, 2014 09:47 AM            

Junip:

Who has even asked you to engage in a discussion?

Do not inflate your ego with more than you can handle.

I am not at all interested in wasting any time with the dense ones!!

posted August 11, 2014 11:22 AM            

and insults the actual moderator for no reason.

Is this an alter or just a recruited troll?

I recognize the "sense of humour" if I'm not mistaken

posted August 11, 2014 11:32 AM            

Muslims do not need any one to defame them. They are doing a great job.

Their acts, videos, pictures, shouts, knives, are enough to shut up any one who is defaming them.

So, take care.

posted August 11, 2014 12:22 PM            

So, take care

Adieu cheri...va bien vous-meme

posted August 11, 2014 01:21 PM            

------------------
Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.