posted November 14, 2015 01:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I understand, but there are troubles with people coming from all over the place, so Germany ends up assimilating not only Syrians but opportunists from all over the place, posing as Syrians. Hasn't this been the case so far?

I just don't know where it ends. :-/

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That's so far only a rumour that's being spread by right-wing fear-mongerers who sadly also exist in Germany (especially in some regions in the East where far fewer immigrants and refugees actually live, paradoxically). So far, there's no evidence of any "posers" in significant numbers among the refugees. (*ETA* The German Minister of Home Affairs just stated in national television that despite numerous hints that were followed up on of supposed islamists posting as refugees, not a single such case has so far been proven correct upon investigation.)

But even if some should come with bad intentions, which is of course possible - does that mean one should deny help to the great majority, to those who need support dearly, out of some petty sort of fear? Ugh... I would not want to be part of such a society, and most people I know see it similarly.

posted November 14, 2015 01:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I understand, but there are troubles with people coming from all over the place, so Germany ends up assimilating not only Syrians but opportunists from all over the place, posing as Syrians. Hasn't this been the case so far?

I just don't know where it ends. :-/

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posted November 14, 2015 01:26 PM            

I hope you are right that it will turn out positively. 'Would be an amazing testament to the integrity of the Germans, if you can manage this.

posted November 14, 2015 01:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Faith - nobody is "inviting" the refugees, the choice is between treating them humanely or detaining them like cattle, or worse. They are simply coming and nobody can stop them, thanks to a certain unnamed country's misguided interventionist policies in the Middle East which created the conditions that gave birth to all this mayhem.

Those refugees are the ones who pay the heaviest price, and are in their overwhelming majority regular people, often people with families and good education, who are running from ISIL, with very good reason. They come to our country braving the risk of death (and so many thousands have already paid with their lives for even the effort) because they want what we have, a stable society. They don't come to subvert our country. Conversely, at least one (confirmed) and probably several more of the assailants yesterday were French nationals who grew up in that country. These people, radicalized underpriviledged youths who were not properly integrated, are much more dangerous than these distraught refugees. They know exactly what the horrors of ISIL look like, because they've seen it, and are telling their stories now, which can help restrain our own young radicalized and delusional proto-terrorists.

Intergrating the refugees will no doubt be difficult but isn't that, with all due respect, any Christian's, and also, every humanitarian's duty, to help the victims of terror and war? What are our values worth if we watch families drown by the thousands in the Mediterrenean, or die from asphyxiation like cattle in illegal transports? Mme. Merkel said a while ago that if that's the idea, 'then this is not my country anymore'. Must have been the first time I agreed with her about something.

At my place of work we are currently charged with integrating 700 refugees. One of my colleagues is in charge of the integration effort so I do have some sort of grasp of what the situation looks like at the grassroots level. Also, one should consider that after WWII, Europe intergrated many, many more refugees. 3 of my 4 grandparents were refugees. Compared to then the situation is much more stable and economically speaking much easier. It's doable and it's not like we have a choice in the matter anyway.

I'm much more concerned about the Islamists that are already legal residents in the European countries, due to being born here. Before they actually commit some sort of crime, nothing can be done against them legally, and supervising all of them 24/7 is not feasible.

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I have much respect and admiration for the German people and how Germany handled the refugees situation and for your message. It is a model. And I know it's not as easy as it sounds, it is indeed an additional effort (financial and otherwise) for the people living there.

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posted November 14, 2015 01:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
I thought that ISIS were using those threats in order to manipulate countries into shutting their doors to refugees. It's another way to instill fear.

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That may be true, but it could also be true that people are poring into Germany from everywhere. How can anyone verify what's going on at this point? The immigrants are coming in faster than they can be "verified" with paperwork.

I'd like to trust in human decency and say, definitely, there will not be any fake refugees, but from what I've read, huge numbers of people do not have any documentation, or proper documentation. I didn't think that was right-wing propaganda. It seemed believable...if you were fleeing a war-torn country, maybe you would have lost your papers in the mayhem, you know?

Ugh I should get off this topic....

posted November 14, 2015 01:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Oh...I thought it was an indisputable fact. People are people, and Germany is an opportunity. Granted, right-wingers may pounce on that for propaganda purposes. But I think it's very believable that it would happen.

I hope you are right that it will turn out positively. 'Would be an amazing testament to the integrity of the Germans, if you can manage this.

Just seems....like a very long, hard, and sometimes scary road ahead, for everyone there. *fingers crossed*

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Well your prayers and well-wishes are very much appreciated, and this country needs them; but I feel that especially the younger generation of Germans (at least those who are not extreme right-wingers) actually enjoy the chance to prove their value in this crisis. Having no purpose is difficult for youngsters; here is their chance to do something very valuable, to test their strength.

Look here:

http://www.dw.com/en/germans-go-the-extra-mile-to-aid-refugees/a-18832649

It's true that many refugees lack documents, but someone's dialect of Arabic is probably evidence enough of where they came from. It's difficult to fake native language proficiency one doesn't have, so translators can pretty much determine someone's place of origin, or rule other places out.

I should maybe add that one must also take into account the dynamics of party politics when looking at some of the statements made. Some conservative politicians see this as their chance to sabotage Merkel, who seemed unassailable before she took a surprisingly clear stand in the refugee issue. So, some of their public statements and fear-mongering may actually result from the hope to further their political career at her expense (this could be especially true for Bavaria's prime minister, btw). I find it interesting that the Catholic church, which is strong in Bavaria and normally allied with Bavaria's ruling party, has strongly rebutted the fear-mongering and asked the local government to do their humanitarian duty.

posted November 14, 2015 02:09 PM            

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posted November 14, 2015 02:32 PM            

I have read that Germany and other border crossings have employed forensic linguists and native speakers of Syrian Arabic to determine whether the refugees really are Syrian.

@Ami Anne

The journey from Syria to Europe is a long and arduous one. Many refugees who start the journey do not finish it. For a Syrian family that wants to leave, it makes sense to send the person who has the best chance of surviving the journey. Children and the elderly are too frail, and women are at increased risk of sexual violence from traffickers. Once they get there, they can establish themselves and send money for their relatives to come. It's not underhanded, it's desperate but smart.

By the way, ISIS absolutely HATES that Syrians are leaving, because they need people around to exploit, recruit, and rob. (Much of ISIS' assets actually come from "looting" as punishment for "crimes.")
http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-propaganda-videos-on-europe-refugees-2015-9

posted November 14, 2015 02:44 PM            

Back to the topic though - it just transpired that police has meanwhile made three arrests in Belgium in connection with the Paris attacks.

See report here:

posted November 14, 2015 02:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
These countries letting in these "refugees", composed of fighting age men, no woman and children,with and cell phones and good sneakers,are realizing they made a H-U-G-E mistake. They are closing the borders, but it is too late.

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posted November 14, 2015 03:05 PM            

Why won't one Arab country with tons of money and tons of land take them?

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posted November 14, 2015 03:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
I know someone who was right there, helping with refugees in one country. I'm sorry, but I'll take what I hear from him as fact, not what Fox News puts out there.

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Speaking of sneakers...

This boy had nice sneakers, but they didn't save him from drowning.

His name was Aylan, he was three years old. His father survived when their boat capsized, but lost his wife and three children. After that, he was offered asylum in Canada, but instead he returned to Syria because, as he said, his life was now meaningless and he might as well die.

The people below were luckier than that; the Italian coast guard saved them from a dangerously overloaded ship.

https://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/fluechtlinge-263~_v-videowebl.jpg

And here are a few men in fighting age complete with sneakers. They did fight hard to get out of the airtight compartment they were trapped in, and in which they were later found dead, as was evident from their wounds. More than 70 people were crammed into that space, among them some women and children; they probably lasted an hour max.

Just a few examples among thousands.

It's great you know someone who helps out, Teasel; those who work directly on the Greek islands keep recovering dead bodies all the time.

posted November 14, 2015 03:20 PM            

This was not real. His father was going to another country to get dental work done.

Also, no one answered why the HUGE Arab countries, replete with huge masses of land and huge stores of oil money take ZERO "refugees"

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posted November 14, 2015 03:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:

This was not real. His father was going to another country to get dental work done.

Also, no one answered why the HUGE Arab countries, replete with huge masses of land and huge stores of oil money take ZERO "refugees"

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posted November 14, 2015 03:33 PM            

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posted November 14, 2015 03:41 PM            

Then all the little hearts and enlightened esoteric speech we are sending to each other here are just hypocrisy.

posted November 14, 2015 03:46 PM            

It is NOT refugees. It is an attempt to make a caliphate, which to to have Islam rule the world.

Look at Dinesh D'Souza's movies. They will show you.

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posted November 14, 2015 03:46 PM            

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QrIapiNOw

The argument is a red herring anyway. Whether or not Arab countries accept refugees has no bearing on the refugees' legal right to asylum under the laws of the European Union, or our own moral obligation to help others in need.

posted November 14, 2015 03:56 PM            

Look at Dinesh D'Souza's movies and then talk to me.

You are playing VERY loose with facts.

It is too depressing for me to see so many people who won't face obvious truths.

I am done here.

Take care, Everyone.

God Bless!

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posted November 14, 2015 05:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by deepseastar:
Enneline, I am Jewish and I do not hate Muslims. They are our spiritual siblings. Most Jews and Muslims do not hate each other. I myself have had many Muslim friends.

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posted November 14, 2015 05:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Seriously, if we cannot cope with this, then who can? Failure is just not an option.

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Failure may not be an option but it has to be seen as a possibility in order to be prevented, you know? And despite all the best intentions in the world, an open door policy may have an operational limit, where there is simply no way to incorporate more people, due to all kinds of resource limitations, including human resource limitations, where the number of refugees could ostensibly exceed the number of Germans able to help. I guess what scares me is overconfidence. I see most criticism of the open door policy branded as hate speech of some sort; in that environment, how will serious problems be recognized for what they are? Won't they always be systematically dismissed as right-wing rubbish, and downplayed? It's as if Germany is saying: There will be no problems because we have willed that there will be no problems.