posted November 14, 2015 05:29 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:

I don't understand that part, though. All countries have border controls, don't they?

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Even if so, they are still coming; the reasons for this being multilayered and multiple, and I donīt feel fit to discuss them here.

posted November 14, 2015 05:29 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:

I don't understand that part, though. All countries have border controls, don't they?

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Even if so, they are still coming; the reasons for this being multilayered and multiple, and I donīt feel fit to discuss them here.

posted November 14, 2015 05:31 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:

Just seems....like a very long, hard, and sometimes scary road ahead, for everyone there. *fingers crossed*

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posted November 14, 2015 05:36 PM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
no woman and children,

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posted November 14, 2015 05:42 PM            

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
In the end I think there will be no choice but to "close the doors" and THAT will be the end of the European idea. Which was probably pretty much a fantasy figure anyway.

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posted November 14, 2015 05:46 PM            

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
nm

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Aw damn, that was a good comment.

Ami, you're p*ssing people off with racist comments. Racism perpetuates these wars and it comes back to bite all of us personally sooner or later. So why not just cut it out?

edit

Suffice it to say I am against US foreign policy and find it difficult to be diplomatic with people who support it enthusiastically, blindly, and cruelly, while always blaming others.

posted November 14, 2015 06:02 PM            

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Originally posted by Enneline:
But most of the refugees are no Syrians , they are from Balkan that is why so many germans flip out. They would love to help but don't want to be used by others not deserving to be handled as asylum seekers

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posted November 14, 2015 06:14 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
Failure may not be an option but it has to be seen as a possibility in order to be prevented, you know? And despite all the best intentions in the world, an open door policy may have an operational limit, where there is simply no way to incorporate more people, due to all kinds of resource limitations, including human resource limitations, where the number of refugees could ostensibly exceed the number of Germans able to help. I guess what scares me is overconfidence. I see most criticism of the open door policy branded as hate speech of some sort; in that environment, how will serious problems be recognized for what they are? Won't they always be systematically dismissed as right-wing rubbish, and downplayed? It's as if Germany is saying: There will be no problems because we have willed that there will be no problems.

Okay. Maybe that will work. But I'll be biting my nails wondering if there isn't some recklessness in that sentiment. And I don't think there is any solution, really ...I would just hate to see Germany ultimately fall down with Syria, after absorbing so much of Syria.

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No, it's actually the opposite of being reckless. It's accepting reality. It's Germany's gov't saying that we understand the necessity of sharing some of our wealth with these people, and that we will not let them starve. People are not saying that there will be no problems. Everybody is fully aware of them. People are saying that to solve these problems, we have to get our act together because the alternative would be far, far worse.

And...what do you mean about Germany "falling down"? How is that supposed to happen? Will all the 80 million Germans turn into Zombies....our industries, all go bankrupt....? How so? Would surprise me big time if that happened. Let's compare notes in 5 and in 10 years and see how it went, shall we?

This is not the first time Germany had to solve a crisis of comparable size. In 1989, we suddenly had 17 Million new citizens who often migrated to the western part of the republic, deserted their homes, and overwhelmingly had no place of work anymore, and in some cases a communist education that had become economically speaking worthless. A few decades before this, we integrated lots of Turkish people who became part of the normal population. I live in a predominantly Turkish neighborhood btw so can daily see the result. My daughter went to a primary school that accomodated 25 different ethnic groups. She learned to deal. Our unification and the integration of Turks was difficult at first, but today one could say it has worked out alright, despite some problems.

I find it rather naive to think that people over here, who are directly confronting the situation every day, aren't fully aware of the difficulties, whereas people on the other side of the Atlantic supposedly are....? The current crisis didn't exactly start yesterday, even though Lindaland at large may not have been interested in it before; and since its effects are so tangible, no one here can afford to ignore what's actually going on right before our own noses. Somehow it really surprises me to hear so many negative views from people who aren't in the vicinity of even a single Syrian refugee...can't help but find that a little weird. It's the same here btw; the less contact with the refugees people actually have, the more negative the response. Wonder what that is about, must be some primal fear of the foreign deeply ingrained in human psychology. Spreading doom-gloom, btw, has never accomplished anything other than making people lethargic. I see way more risk in that than in choosing to confront the situation actively. This doesn't mean wishful thinking, it means taking initiative and facing the consequences of action rather than of inaction.

Also, it's not so difficult for finance experts to calculate the overall cost of support, it's been done and the effect on the economy is not that large. Our country is different from the U.S. in many ways, Faith, e.g. in that we don't have millions of people without access to proper healthcare or housing over here, living below the poverty line, because on average the wealth is spread far more evenly. So the risk of the refugees upsetting our social reality is not that large. And it's not like these refugees don't want to work or anything. Many want to continue their studies or go working and are only waiting for their status to be approved to do that, so once they're cleared to work this will enable a lot of them to care for themselves in due time.

Also, what would be the alternative? Shooting all the people who try to cross the border? Building a wall and letting them freeze to death in no man's land when winter finally strikes? Or what should authorities do to stop them instead? We've already kinda been through the whole concentration camp approach in this country a while back, so I doubt that a revival would have many official backers. But apart from that, how could the migration movement be "stopped"? Just genuinely not getting here what is implied as an alternative approach.

We will somehow deal with it. Just like our grandparents directly after WWII did, who had nothing much at all to start with and just had to cope with whatever came their way. The city I live in was almost completely destroyed in WWII, one can still see the scars. Compared with the situation people back then were facing, what we have right now is really not that terrible. But it will change the world as we knew it, this will be a different country and a different continent when all is said and done.

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Anyway, regarding that Dinesh fellow who was mentioned as an expert further up in the thread by someone...never heard of him, as he's not a recognized expert of refugee affairs here in Europe.

But, as it seems, he's quite a colorful figure otherwise:

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinesh_D%27Souza :

In January 2014, D'Souza was indicted on charges of making illegal political contributions to a 2012 United States Senate campaign, a felony under U.S. law. On May 20, 2014, D'Souza pleaded guilty in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York to a charge of using "straw donors" to make illegal political campaign donations. On September 23, D'Souza was sentenced to eight months in a halfway house near his home in San Diego, five years probation, and a $30,000 fine.

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posted November 14, 2015 06:33 PM            

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It's the same here btw; the less contact with the refugees people actually have, the more negative the response. Wonder what that is about, must be some primal fear of the foreign deeply ingrained in human psychology.

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Am I being negative? Are you talking about me, showing a fear of the foreign?

One of my best friends is Bavarian and as much a humanitarian as anyone you know. We've been talking about it over the months, and I am seeing the difficulties playing out in her life already, with concern about where it's all headed. For instance many in her circle are working very hard as volunteers, some barely come home to rest. Hence I wonder how the increasing numbers will play out...they are already strained and housing has run out.

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Also, what would be the alternative? Shooting all the people who try to cross the border? Building a wall and letting them freeze to death in no man's land when winter finally strikes? Or what should authorities do to stop them instead?

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I feel your tone is antagonistic, and I'm just not used to this kind of discussion with you.

If you feel that an endless open door policy is the only compassionate answer, and that it will and must succeed, you probably have a good reason for thinking that.

Frankly I think the distribution of refugees throughout Europe is curiously concentrated in Germany, and cannot understand why that should be the case. Really is there no other way for the EU to deal with the crisis?

posted November 14, 2015 06:39 PM            

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Originally posted by deepseastar:
Vajra, Dinesh D'Souza is an American Christian pundit of Indian (not Arab!) descent, but since most Americans can't tell brown people apart, they assume he must be an authority on Middle Eastern affairs. In the past he has made other ridiculous statements, like defending colonialism and saying Africa should have been colonized longer for its own "benefit."

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Ah, I see. Thanks I see I have a lot to learn about intellectual life on the other side of the Atlantic ocean. Long ago, I survived an encounter with a roommate from California who was a creationist, the first time I heard of this particular ideology which was thoroughly unknown in Europe at the time; so I hope to survive Mr. D'Souza's contributions as well...if I get the time to look into it some more one day.

posted November 14, 2015 06:56 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:

Frankly I think the distribution of refugees throughout Europe is curiously concentrated in Germany, and cannot understand why that should be the case. Really is there no other way for the EU to deal with the crisis?

As I said, I don't think there is any solution, and as things stand, it's worrisome to me.

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posted November 14, 2015 07:14 PM            

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
That is just true, it is due to Germany's social support system, integration approach and economical power, which makes it a heavier load on Germany. Many refugees want to go there specifically. But it's also a validation of Germany's success, which also means power to help, IMO. The other countries are receiving as many people as they can or think they can.
Apart from genuine economical success, there's also the mentality. Believing and exercising the power to help and to share wealth, peace and prosperity, another reason Germany is preferred. And a strong reason for another success.

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Maybe Vajra is right and my worrying is in vain.

Just looks altogether volatile.

It's nothing against the Syrians or Muslims. Just the circumstances.

I try and research the situation thoroughly, because I'm interested, but I don't know enough about German media to know what's trustworthy. Is this trustworthy?? http://www.thelocal.de/20151026/hundreds-of-refugees-disappearing-from-centres

I don't know.

And the American media hasn't given it much attention. Anyway I dug myself a hole here and should be doing other things.

posted November 14, 2015 07:20 PM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
I'm afraid there's no other realistic possibility, no panacea that will somehow magically make room for a splendid solution.

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But that's what I was thinking of...hopefully Germany has enough leverage in the EU, and the EU is responsible enough, that the distribution will be more equal, lessening the burden of the crisis of integration, on the people immediately affected now...that includes the refugees who find themselves in Germany with no housing, and winter coming fast.

But as you said, that will take time, and by then, that crisis may have been dealt with.

No, I don't think there is any magic solution. I've said that from the start.

posted November 14, 2015 07:21 PM            

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Originally posted by Enneline:
But most of the refugees are no Syrians , they are from Balkan that is why so many germans flip out. They would love to help but don't want to be used by others not deserving to be handled as asylum seekers

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This thread has turned into something very SAD.
The WORLD we live in is coming to an END,
BECAUSE WE ARE ALL CLINGING TO IT.
It seems here in astrology land we have the inability to agree to disagree on international policy and what is or isn't religious bullcrap and do some astrology.
One mod basically telling another mod to shut up because they don't like their opinion, they don't have the right to express it.
I never thought I would encounter such crap when I came to this website. On Twitter
,, yes
I am reminded of the socialist driven craze in Missouri where students are using their right of free speech to protest against the right of free speech of everyone who they disagree with.
Everyone here including myself seems to be ignorant of some facts but this thread was not started but for an expression of our sorrow and an anaylsis of event via astrology, not so we could all reveal that we missed kindergarten.
Often I may not agree on something that is shared related to astrology but that does not mean the other persons here give a crap that I disagree, nor should I expect them to do so.
GOOD DAY

posted November 14, 2015 07:22 PM            

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Whenever we have knee-jerk responses to attacks like this by lashing out against all Muslims, we are really just playing into ISIS' hands. [/B]

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well put!!! thanks for all the thorough explanations and humanity. We need more people like you opening minds and explaining things in detail.

posted November 14, 2015 07:35 PM            

I have tried very hard to insulate myself from this tragedy, and have partly succeeded. My heart goes to each LL member who is there.