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Author Topic:   Trump's Contract With The American Voter
Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 12:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Newsflash: If you are here illegally, you are, in fact, a criminal. That's not racism. That's fact. But Trump is talking about illegal immigrants who commit other crimes. There are 11.7 undocumented immigrants in the U.S. Of these, we know that 2.1 million have been prosecuted of crimes. These are the individuals Trump will ship out of our country.

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 12:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Edit

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 12:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/09/02/trumps-fuzzy-math-on-undocumented-immigrants-convicted-of-crimes/

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I edited my post above. Speeding is a far cry from violating the sovereignty of the United States. But that was my commentary. Not Trump's. Trump is talking about convicted felons. Are they criminals? The answer is yes. That's the textbook definition of "criminal." But you know what it's not? It's not the textbook definition of "racism."

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 12:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/16/crime-wave-elusive-data-shows-frightening-toll-illegal-immigrant-criminals.amp.html?client=safari

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 12:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's nothing fuzzy about the government sources where Trump got his numbers. The only thing "fuzzy" is the leftist thinking that promotes open borders.

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 12:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What IS the sovereignty of the US? I mean it's practically a multinational corporation by now, not an actual government running things, so who are we kidding?

Meanwhile, speeding cars kill people.

But people don't even call drunk drivers "criminals" because that tends to be a white crime.

---

Just a few months ago, Trump's figure for the number of criminal illegal immigrants was less than 10% of the figure he's quoting now.

quote:
"Nearly 180,000 illegal immigrants with criminal records, ordered deported from our country, are tonight roaming free to threaten peaceful citizens," Trump said in his nomination acceptance speech Thursday.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jul/22/donald-trump/trump-nearly-180000-illegal-immigrants-have-crimin/

What gives?

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 12:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
There's nothing fuzzy about the government sources where Trump got his numbers

Great! Please tell me where I can find these "non-fuzzy" government documents.

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 12:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Click on my link. And the 180,000 were the ones who were deported and then allowed to return and roam free. The 2.1 million are all of the ones that have actually been convicted. Apples and oranges. So, no, Trump's number isn't different. Yes, speeding kills people, and that then becomes a homicide. Apples and oranges.

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 01:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was requesting the actual government sources.

But okay, I clicked on your link:

"ELUSIVE crime wave data shows frightening toll of illegal immigrant criminals."

Aye, truly elusive.

It says stuff like....

quote:
A spokesperson for U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement told FoxNews.com that comprehensive statistics on illegal immigrant crime are not available from the federal government, and suggested contacting county, state and federal jail and prison systems individually to compose a tally, a process that would encompass thousands of local departments.

quote:
"There are a lot of reasons states don’t make this information readily available and there is no clearinghouse of data at high levels," Adams said.

quote:
A smattering of statistics can be teased out of data made public in other states heavily impacted by illegal immigration

quote:
In California, there were 128,543 inmates in custody as of Aug. 12, but the state, which has been criticized for its leniency toward illegal immigrants, no longer keeps track of the citizenship status of inmates.

Yup, elusive as they said it would be.

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 01:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
More from your article:

quote:
There are approximately 2.1 million legal or illegal immigrants with criminal convictions living free or behind bars in the U.S., according to ICE's Secure Communities office.

ICE doesn't have a Secure Communities office anymore.

quote:
Secure Communities was an immigration enforcement program administered by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) from 2008 to 2014.

The program was replaced by Priority Enforcement Program (PEP) in July 2015.



http://www.ice.gov/secure-communities

I don't let things like that slide when it comes to professional journalists. They really should get their facts right. I mean, the only thing they supposedly do is report facts.

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your selective quoting has been noted. I will post the full relevant parts that you missed tomorrow. But at least you now know what is meant by criminal immigrants.

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 02:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are some stats:

According to the Fair 2013 Study, illegal immigrants from Mexico costs us $113 billion a year.

$49.2 billion for education

$10.8 billion for medical care

$9.6 billion for education

$8.7 billion for justice expenditures

$5.3 billion for welfare related

In Texas alone, illegal immigrants committed 642,000 crimes in the past 7 years.

According to the U.S. Sentencing Commision, illegal immigrants make up the following percentages of total crimes:

18% of drug trafficking

30% of kidnapping/hostage taking

75% of drug possession

10% of money laundering

21% of national defense

5% of murder

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 02:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bottom line: No matter what the actual numbers are, we have records of illegal immigrants who were deported and not accepted into their countries, and we have records of illegal immigrants who were convicted of various crimes. These people are the ones who Trump wants to ship out.

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Your selective quoting has been noted. I will post the full relevant parts that you missed tomorrow. But at least you now know what is meant by criminal immigrants.

The whole article including the title shows that there is a whole lot that's "fuzzy" about the numbers.

And you know it.

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The title? So, you base that on the word "elusive" and ignore the words "frightening toll"? And you posted parts of a paragraph and not the rest to make it fit your narrative, missing the big picture and making it sound like something it isn't saying, and you know it. But you do now understand what Trump means by criminal illegal immigrants, correct? Here's the entire article:

In the absence of comprehensive data, FoxNews.com examined a patchwork of local, state and federal statistics that revealed a wildly disproportionate number of murderers, rapists and drug dealers are crossing into the U.S. amid the wave of hard-working families seeking a better life. The explosive figures show illegal immigrants are three times as likely to be convicted of murder as members of the general population and account for far more crimes than their 3.5-percent share of the U.S. population would suggest. Critics say it is no accident that local, state and federal governments go to great lengths to keep the data under wraps.

"There are a lot of reasons states donft make this information readily available, and there is no clearinghouse of data at high levels," said former Department of Justice attorney J. Christian Adams, who has conducted exhaustive research on the subject. "These numbers would expose how serious the problem is and make the government look bad.

They should have been sent back to their home country instead of being allowed to stay here and have the opportunity to kill Americans.

- Jessica Vaughan, Center for Immigration Studies

Adams called illegal immigrant crime a "wave of staggering proportions." He and other experts noted that the issue has been dragged into the spotlight by a spate of cases in which illegal immigrants with criminal records killed people after being released from custody because of incoherent procedures and a lack of cooperation between local and federal law enforcement officials. The murders, including the July 1 killing of Kathryn Steinle, allegedly by an illegal immigrant in San Francisco, have left grieving loved ones angry and confused, local and federal officials pointing fingers at one another and the voting public demanding secure borders and swift deportation of non-citizen criminals.

Every one [of the recent cases] was preventable through better border security and enforcing immigration laws,h said Jessica Vaughan, director of policy studies at the Center for Immigration Studies. They should have been sent back to their home country instead of being allowed to stay here and have the opportunity to kill Americans.

A spokesperson for U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement told FoxNews.com that comprehensive statistics on illegal immigrant crime are not available from the federal government, and suggested contacting county, state and federal jail and prison systems individually to compose a tally, a process that would encompass thousands of local departments.

FoxNews.com did review reports from immigration reform groups and various government agencies, including the U.S. Census Bureau, U.S. Sentencing Commission, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the Government Accountability Office, the Bureau of Justice Statistics and several state and county correctional departments. Statistics show the estimated 11.7 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. account for 13.6 percent of all offenders sentenced for crimes committed in the U.S. Twelve percent of murder sentences, 20 percent of kidnapping sentences and 16 percent of drug trafficking sentences are meted out to illegal immigrants.

Critics say better border security is needed to keep illegal immigrants out, but those caught committing crimes here must be imprisoned and deported. (AP) Expand / Contract

Critics say better border security is needed to keep illegal immigrants out, but those caught committing crimes here must be imprisoned and deported. (AP) (Reuters)

There are approximately 2.1 million legal or illegal immigrants with criminal convictions living free or behind bars in the U.S., according to ICE's Secure Communities office. Each year, about 900,000 legal and illegal immigrants are arrested, and 700,000 are released from jail, prison, or probation. ICE estimates that there are more than 1.2 million criminal aliens at large in the U.S.

In the most recent figures available, a Government Accountability Office report titled, "Criminal Alien Statistics," found there were 55,000 illegal immigrants in federal prison and 296,000 in state and local lockups in 2011. Experts agree those figures have almost certainly risen, although executive orders from the Obama administration may have changed the status of thousands who previously would have been counted as illegal immigrants.

Hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrant criminals are being deported. In 2014, ICE removed 315,943 criminal illegal immigrants nationwide, 85 percent of whom had previously been convicted of a criminal offense. But that same year, ICE released onto U.S. streets another 30,558 criminal illegal immigrants with a combined 79,059 criminal convictions including 86 homicides, 186 kidnappings, and thousands of sexual assaults, domestic violence assaults and DUIs, Vaughan said. As of August, ICE had already released at least 10,246 criminal aliens.

David Inserra, a policy analyst for Homeland Security and Cybersecurity at The Heritage Foundation, said letting illegal immigrants convicted of crimes go free while they await deportation hearings is putting the public at risk.

While it is not certain how many of these individuals were here illegally, most of these individuals were in deportation proceedings and should have been detained or at least more closely supervised and monitored until their deportation order was finalized and executed,Inserra said.

Adams opened a rare window into the dearth of public data when he obtained an internal report compiled by the Texas Department of Public Safety and revealed its contents on his Pajamas Media blog. The report showed that between 2008 and 2014, noncitizens in Texas -- a group that includes illegal and legal immigrants -- committed 611,234 crimes, including nearly 3,000 homicides. Adams told FoxNews.com that other states have also closely tracked illegal immigrant crime, especially in the wake of 9/11, but said the statistical sorting gis done behind closed doors.h States closely guard the statistics out of either fear of reprisals from the federal government or out of their leaders' own insistence on downplaying the burden of illegal immigrant crime, he said.

"There are a lot of reasons states donft make this information readily available and there is no clearinghouse of data at high levels," Adams said. "These numbers would expose how serious the problem is and make the government look bad."

Victor Aureliano Martinez Ramirez, (l.), and Jose Fernando Villagomez, (r.), allegedly broke into the home of Marilyn Pharis on July 24. (Santa Maria Police Department)

A smattering of statistics can be teased out of data made public in other states heavily impacted by illegal immigration, although a full picture or apples-to-apples comparison remains elusive.

In Florida, there were 5,061 illegal immigrant inmates in state prison facilities as of June 30, but neither the state Department of Corrections nor the Florida Department of Law Enforcement track the number in county prisons, spokesmen for those agencies told FoxNews.com.

In Illinois, where state prisons house 46,993 inmates, some 3,755 are illegal immigrants, according to Illinois Department of Corrections figures. Once again, state officials do not compile figures for county jails, although a Cook County official estimated that nearly 6 percent were illegal immigrants.

In Arizona, neither state public safety officials nor the governorfs office could produce figures showing the number of criminal illegal immigrants held in county jails, but state prison figures released by the Arizona Department of Corrections show out of 42,758 prisoners held in state facilities in July, about 10.8 percent were illegal immigrants.

In California, there were 128,543 inmates in custody as of Aug. 12, but the state, which has been criticized for its leniency toward illegal immigrants, no longer keeps track of the citizenship status of inmates. As of July 31, 2013, the last time figures were documented, there were as many as 18,000 gforeign-bornh citizens in California state prisons of 133,000 incarcerated. The Board of State and Community Corrections provided figures to Fox News from 2014, showing there were 142,000 inmates in 120 county prisons, but while everything from mental health cases to dental and medical appointments are closely tracked, the number of illegal aliens -- or even non citizens -- is not.

Frankly, this is something every state should track, but they donft. Not even ICE publishes this much information on offenders and immigration status,h Vaughan said.

Several pro-immigration groups contacted by FoxNews.com declined to comment on the outsize role illegal immigrants play in the U.S. criminal justice system. One group that did insisted that even illegal immigrants provide a net benefit to the U.S.

Immigrants, regardless of their legal status, make valuable contributions to our economy as workers, business owners, taxpayers and consumers,h said Erin Oshiro, of Asian Americans Advancing Justice. gWe need an immigration system that that keeps families together, protects workers, and prioritizes due process and human rights."

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
The title? So, you base that on the word "elusive" and ignore the words "frightening toll"?

ELUSIVE summarizes the nature of the data.

"Frightening toll" is the propaganda SPIN that Fox News put on the elusive data that it doctored to fit its own agenda.

You must be agenda-blind so you don't see it.

But when I clicked on that link and some newscaster was targeting a Hispanic criminal and conveying the clear message of "FEAR these people" I almost threw up.

I haven't seen such CLEAR and EXPLICIT racism in the American mainstream media in all my life.

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would say that I don't know where Fox gets the nerve to be so reckless, except when I see how you fail to comprehend that they are telling you "These are OUR own conclusions based on ELUSIVE" -- that is, not available -- "ELUSIVE data"...

You mistake THEM for qualified statisticians working with solid data!

No questions asked!

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, you certainly know how to put a spin to further your agenda. You missed your calling. You should be a journalist for the left. There's nothing racist about criminal immigrants. They are here illegally and contributing to crime. What's racist about it?

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They did a great job extrapolating data and admitted the challenges of doing so. They should be commended for integrity and for the work involved. But it really doesn't matter about the actual numbers. What matters is that illegal immigrants are committing violent crimes, and the ones who are will be shipped out by Trump.

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Elusive means you have to work to get at it. It's called journalism. Not making sh*t up like the lying leftist press. Elusive doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 03:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Elusive means you have to work to get at it. It's called journalism. Not making sh*t up like the lying leftist press. Elusive doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Um, yes it DOES mean it doesn't exist in this case. Read your article again.

Heck they even pulled data from a government agency that no longer exists.

What is that crap?

And YES it's racist through and through, the way they are presenting/doctoring this information.

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Randall
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posted October 30, 2016 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agree to disagree.

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Faith
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posted October 30, 2016 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alright.

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teasel
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posted October 30, 2016 08:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
Um, yes it DOES mean it doesn't exist in this case. Read your article again.

Heck they even pulled data from a government agency that no longer exists.

What is that crap?

And YES it's racist through and through, the way they are presenting/doctoring this information.


I agree with you.

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