posted November 13, 2016 12:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
It's becoming a matter of interest to me how people can ignore reasonable arguments completely. It is truly amazing.

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Yes I agree with you that Trump isn't a saint. Although I am a huge Trump fan but I have to agree with that. In fact I doubt anybody is a saint, as most human beings are governed by self interests.

posted November 13, 2016 12:37 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Venusincap89:
But how does Thomas Piketty's argument contrast with Trump's policies? Because the reasoning behind such theory seems to coincide with the purpose of Trump's policies. Although I am a free-market Austrian economics guy, what Trump is doing isn't letting the market correct itself. He is stepping in to bring changes.

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He says two different, contradictory things.

Trump's answer to the ACA is "following free market principles" when it is in fact the supposed 'free market' which caused it in the first place. Whatever its problems, the ACA attempted to address the healthcare crisis, but Trump pretends it is the main problem.

Trump wants to "Modify existing law that inhibits the sale of health insurance across state lines." That will not solve the problem and will only benefit the very largest insurance companies.

Those are his main 'free market' proposals.

But - here is where I tend to agree with Trump:

quote:

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Block-grant Medicaid to the states. Nearly every state already offers benefits beyond what is required in the current Medicaid structure. The state governments know their people best and can manage the administration of Medicaid far better without federal overhead. States will have the incentives to seek out and eliminate fraud, waste and abuse to preserve our precious resources.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/healthcare-reform

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So even he acknowledges that there must be public support for healthcare and that the current federal system is doing some good. Social programs need not be managed from afar.

Medicare and SSI have very little overhead, but I agree with him it is better managed by the states, but that is no reason to not have universal national coverage. That can still be managed at the state level.

We don't have to reinvent the wheel here. We just have a different scale with 330 million people. Other democracies have already shown how to get high quality health insurance for their citizens:

1. France - They use a combination of private and public coverage, and nearly everyone in France has health insurance. Socialized medicine.
2. Italy ... hardly any Italians have private health insurance. Socialized medicine.
3. Andora ... has found success in modelling their system after the French. {b]More socialized medicine[/b].
4. Malta - Today, they provide free healthcare services for all citizens. Totally socialized medicine.
5. Singapore - It balances services between the government and private companies. Base-level services are provided by the government. Socialized medcine.
6. England ... has healthcare that is free for everyone and paid for with taxes. {b]The very definition of socialized medicine[/b].

http://gazettereview.com/2016/04/countries-with-the-best-health-care/

Let's all stop pretending Obamacare was dreamed up by Obama and company. The framework and working principles of the ACA was first passed by the GOP-dominated Massachusetts legislature and signed into law there by then Governor Mitt Romney. It was conceived by the highly conservative Heritage Foundation circa 1980 as an answer/prevention of socialized medicine (which had first been considered by the Nixon administration). The ACA is a system of patchworks and exchanges designed to give Big Insurance more customers and it has succeeded in that.

Any flaws it has are due to the fact that its design bent it over backwards to prop up for-profit insurance companies that have never given a single minute of health care themselves, but which stick their grubby hands into the exchange between doctor and patient in order to extract profit and hold sick people hostage in the process.

Obamacare stopped the exclusions based on pre-existing conditions, and pressed upon all the citizenry to join (or pay a fine) in the attempt to enlarge the buying power. Covering the entire nation from the tax pool in a non-profit fashion is a far more efficient way to do it.

Thank you for admitting the prejudice in the term 'free loader.'

I have to go eat dinner now, but I look forward to continuing this civil discussion for as long as Randall permits it.

posted November 13, 2016 12:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Venusincap89:
First it was racism, and then he changed it to prejudice, he subtly manipulates the flow of discussion to his advantage. It works quite well because he is a well spoken, educated man but I can't help but to argue that you too are a hypocritical man

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I'm right here still in the room. You can address me directly.

I am self-educated. I have no college degree. So remember that, because you can do it too -- and without paying a single cent to state colleges or taking a single dime in public grants or subsidies to do it.

Pre-judging someone or especially a group of 'free loaders' is racism when it especially focuses on ethnicity, which the Trump campaign and Obama haters have done for 8 years.

Many Obama haters cannot admit they have at least some racial prejudice in them, even though it is clearly evident by the level of disgust and the types of lies that have been spread about him or his policies. This is not the burning cross on the lawn racism, but the behind-their-backs racism that I know quite well from my near 39 years in the south.

You can play semantics, but you can't fool me. I know all the code words and the images they are intended to induce.

posted November 13, 2016 12:58 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:

Trump wants to "Modify existing law that inhibits the sale of health insurance across state lines." That will not solve the problem and will only benefit the very largest insurance companies.

[/B]

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That's a fair point. Trump's new policy on the sale of health insurance across the state lines could very well benefit the largest company, rather than driving the competition and benefit the consumers.

but what does such policy have to do with the fact that ACA was first passed by the Massachusetts legislature??

posted November 13, 2016 01:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
I'm right here still in the room. You can address me directly.

I am self-educated. I have no college degree. So remember that, because you can do it too -- and without paying a single cent to state colleges or [b]taking a single dime in public grants or subsidies to do it.

Pre-judging someone or especially a group of 'free loaders' is racism when it especially focuses on ethnicity, which the Trump campaign and Obama haters have done for 8 years.

Many Obama haters cannot admit they have at least some racial prejudice in them, even though it is clearly evident by the level of disgust and the types of lies that have been spread about him or his policies. This is not the burning cross on the lawn racism, but the behind-their-backs racism that I know quite well from my near 39 years in the south.

You can play semantics, but you can't fool me. I know all the code words and the images they are intended to induce.

[/B]

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I respect that you are self educated, but Sorry bud once again I gotta argue that you are once again being a hypocrite. And I don't appreciate your cherry picking either. You are forcing the whole racism thing beyond and above, it's simply insane. In fact according to your logic, every interviewers in job applications are racist and prejudiced if they don't hire.

posted November 13, 2016 02:32 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
I'm right here still in the room. You can address me directly.

I am self-educated. I have no college degree. So remember that, because you can do it too -- and without paying a single cent to state colleges or [b]taking a single dime in public grants or subsidies to do it.

Pre-judging someone or especially a group of 'free loaders' is racism when it especially focuses on ethnicity, which the Trump campaign and Obama haters have done for 8 years.

Many Obama haters cannot admit they have at least some racial prejudice in them, even though it is clearly evident by the level of disgust and the types of lies that have been spread about him or his policies. This is not the burning cross on the lawn racism, but the behind-their-backs racism that I know quite well from my near 39 years in the south.

You can play semantics, but you can't fool me. I know all the code words and the images they are intended to induce.

[/B]

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But yet surprisingly, more Latinos voted for Trump than expected. 26% of Latina women voted for Trump. I'm sure they're 'racist'. I'm sure the 53% of white women who voted for Trump were 'sexist'.

posted November 13, 2016 02:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:

There are much bigger things at stake and I mean much bigger than abortion and you can always go to another state if you want to abort. Regardless I doubt any state will make early term abortion illegal. If you actually saw the video Orange posted you will realize that there are much bigger things at stake than abortion.

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posted November 13, 2016 04:00 AM            

- waterboarding
- building a wall to Mexico
- baning Muslims

(the latter has already been removed from his agenda obviously.)

so, how do you trump fans justify that? Are you okay with waterboarding and baning muslims?

This is a serious q. I really would like to hear your point of view

posted November 13, 2016 04:24 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orange:
WOW
i just saw this. No tv media had ran it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKGjczYz1bg

Can he do what he says? Is his astro chart strong enough?

He has Sun- Uranus - North Node conjunction in his 10th .
Is that enough to help him to take on the establishment?

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There are powerful forces behind the curtain called the "deep state" or "shadow government" that are more powerful than Potus. So, Trump is up against formidable opposition, not only from the establishment but also from the deep state. Ron Paul warns about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWrVJHtejkQ

The Sun-Uranus-NN triple conjunction in the 10H is what I attribute Trump's against all odds improbable win in this election. Plus he has an exact Jupiter trine Uranus, which is extraordinarily fortunate. So, he certainly has larger forces in his favor.

This, combined with Mars conjunct the Ascendant I think makes him equal to the formidable task of confronting the establishment. Plus Uranus is conjunct the chart ruler.

The tell will be who he appoints to key positions, whether he acts on his campaign promises or not. I think looking at his transits can also be revealing.

According to the way I time transits, transiting Saturn is opposing this conjunction. A narrative for the Saturn opposition to Uranus that I find helpful is the Greek myth of Zeus and Prometheus. Saturn in this myth is represented by Zeus, the King of the Gods, who could also stand in for the establishment. The rebel against the Gods on Olympus is Prometheus, the Liberator who is the champion of humankind. Saturn in transit opposing Uranus relates to that part of the myth where Zeus has Prometheus chained to a rock where a double headed eagle tears at his liver. In other words, the liberating, awakening, rebellious force is contained or restrained by the status quo, i.e., the government, political elites, etc. Trump is going to be contending with Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, both parties in Congress and a myriad of interests in Washington who are invested in keeping the system as it is.

Contrast the Saturn transit to natal Uranus in Trump's chart to the Uranus transit conjunct the Democratic Party's natal Saturn. Here, we're seeing the change agent Uranus breaking up the status quo Saturn manifesting as the collapse of the party in the aftermath of a shocking defeat that took them completely by surprise.

But, equally or even more concerning is the Pluto transit opposing natal Saturn starting next year. He could be facing some kind of national security threat/crisis or significant defeat.

posted November 13, 2016 04:40 AM            

in the future, the US will be respected only out of fear of their military power.

and in a world increasingly multipolar, developping countries looking for peace to develop, this ultimate US power will become a burden to the rest of the world. and a threat.

Although the elction of Trump was a cry for help of the forgotten in our system, it will serve to reaffirm the establishment's place when it has failed to do the changes it has promised. but different could that be when you consider the type of moral values this man is bringin on the table, being a billionaire not paying taxes ?

I understand the success of the Trump rethoric, "me against the system", that is what makes the success of every populist across the world, Le pen in france says the same ting, poutine against the US, ... etc...
many people I know in France want Le pen in power because they are so fed up with not being listened to that they want to take the this option.

I can't help but think that those people complaining that they don't have enough should switch off their TV and realise the chances they were born with.

posted November 13, 2016 04:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Enneline:
In Germany people are still astonished that Americans have selected a man who promoted

- waterboarding
- building a wall to Mexico
- baning Muslims

(the latter has already been removed from his agenda obviously.)

so, how do you trump fans justify that? Are you okay with waterboarding and baning muslims?

This is a serious q. I really would like to hear your point of view

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Because of where I live, I didn't have to choose between Trump or Clinton. Although I didn't vote for him, I'm greatly relieved that the Clintons will not return to the White House.

If I lived in a key state that could determine the outcome of the election, and faced with the choice between them, I still wouldn't have voted for Trump because support for torture is completely unacceptable. I would also not support banning Muslims or building a wall.

I'm not sure how much of Trump's rhetoric can be taken seriously. He said things in the primary that appealed to the Republican base, such as anti-Muslim rhetoric. Politicians lie, they say things to get elected.

Contrary to Clinton, whose inflammatory rhetoric during the campaign against Russia and her advocacy for a no fly zone in Syria could have resulted in a confrontation with another nuclear power, Trump wants to co-exist peacefully with Russia. He also is not interested in overthrowing governments, although he wants to go after ISIS aggressively. Clinton would have been a greater threat to the peace and security of the world.

posted November 13, 2016 06:39 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Venusincap89:
SJWs are just absolutely out of their minds these days. Especially the female SJWs.. good god they get naked in public over anything

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posted November 13, 2016 06:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SilverFeather:
oh wow how polite and eloquent. Nice way to have a civil conversation, indeed.

I actually didn't even get to explain my opinion before I got people attacking like I committed some sort of crime. I didn't mean to make abortion seem like something women do for 'fun' because last time I checked they don't. What I disagreed with was the overuse of the argument itself. Even if abortion is unhealthy, a woman still need to have the choice of whether to have the baby or not. By saying that abortion is unhealthy and therefore should be outlawed, then you're taking away that choice.

Also, my mother has nothing to do with how I formulate my own opinions as an individual, so lay off her, okay and let's not let this get ugly ? ^^

But you know what, I'm not even American, why should I care ? Enjoy your new racist sexist, homophobic idiot of a president, after all you chose him. I guess that's what you deserve.

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I agree with you.

posted November 13, 2016 06:46 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Venusincap89:
Yes Ami, I ll clean it up once the ones involved in the argument has seen the replies. I apologize for displaying such behavior but having come across many Trump haters and SJWs, I came to realize that you just can't have a civil conversation with them and that you gotta forcefully shove logic in their throats.
Once again I apologize..

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posted November 13, 2016 06:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
You CANNOT have a civil conversation with them, Venus.

You can just tell them the truth and have them give you illogical rubbish and ignore or whatever but don't hurt yourself over it

One day, they may learn, hopefully.

They have no idea the tyranny they were spared by getting Trump lol

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Oh, give it up, Ami. I can't believe I thought of you as a friend. You see things from your perspective only.

posted November 13, 2016 07:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Venusincap89:

I know the term 'free-loader' does show prejudice, but the thing about political correctness is that people don't realize the very standard of political correctness is set up by the ruling state (democratic party), which end up serving as soft state censorship

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So, it's fine for people to be politically incorrect, as long as it's against Liberals. I've experienced some Republicans suddenly looking for the PC world they denigrated, and "safe spaces" - the very things they mocked, just a couple of months ago - because suddenly, they're uncomfortable.

I haven't personally sent them running for their safe spaces (which may be of some surprise, especially to someone who posted a passive-aggressive meme or two on facebook yesterday).

I know more than one person who could die without their health care. There are people being attacked all over the country, just as they were in England, after Brexit (and I know a few good people who voted for Brexit, too). Men are grouping together, or just attempting by themselves, to grab women by their "kitties". We had Russia trying to sway our election, had voters being intimidated, rump supporters cheering when they saw Liberals leaving the polling place (because the line was too long, and they had to pick up their little girl), a therapist launching into his own personal trumptopian rant, when a patient talked about how emotional and bad she was feeling over the election - he launched a 45 minute attack on her beliefs - this is a THERAPIST, paid and trained to be neutral, and to help people.
Kids being taunted at schools, white supremacists arranging lynching parties at colleges, and adding all black people from their school, to a group, letting them know what they plan (or wish) to do.

But there is no point in this. No point in talking to people who can't see past their own gloating, and weren't bothered by what their candidate was stirring up. As long as your life is grand, the hell with the rest of us.

posted November 13, 2016 07:18 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by peony:
Because of where I live, I didn't have to choose between Trump or Clinton. Although I didn't vote for him, I'm greatly relieved that the Clintons will not return to the White House.

If I lived in a key state that could determine the outcome of the election, and faced with the choice between them, I still wouldn't have voted for Trump because support for torture is completely unacceptable. I would also not support banning Muslims or building a wall.

I'm not sure how much of Trump's rhetoric can be taken seriously. He said things in the primary that appealed to the Republican base, such as anti-Muslim rhetoric. Politicians lie, they say things to get elected.

Contrary to Clinton, whose inflammatory rhetoric during the campaign against Russia and her advocacy for a no fly zone in Syria could have resulted in a confrontation with another nuclear power, Trump wants to co-exist peacefully with Russia. He also is not interested in overthrowing governments, although he wants to go after ISIS aggressively. Clinton would have been a greater threat to the peace and security of the world.

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Hi Peony I will attempt to briefly explain the unexplainable in simple terms. To a non-racist, racism is an abomination. Why? Because people are equal and there has been a millenary effort to acknowledge that by giving people equal rights. Prejudice of any kind based on race, religion, gender, place of origin is blindness to this fundamental truth of our species. Which makes racism a self-destruction tool.

Faced with the danger of racism, sexism and xenophobia, it becomes a priority. Nothing overtrumps racism and sexism, prejudice.

For a non-racist, a racist candidate to presidency is an abomination who is never an option, he doesn't exist as an option in the first place (as long as they are one). Therefore, Trump was never in the race (no pun intended) in the first place. It's like Maslow's pyramid, the red level, they will never be accepted. Racism can only be endured with the purpose of being destroyed.

Since racism is no longer possible in the US (due to the country itself being a reunion of immigrants from all over the world, and the country not "belonging" to a certain race, ethnicity, people, religion, gender, except for Native Americans maybe, if we want to erase immigration), racism in America is a self-destructive bomb.

I won't even mention how absurd it is to see immigrants speaking against immigration in any way. It gives us a show of the lower nature of man and its selfishness and hypocrisy. Plus, on a practical level, when immigration stops, our species begins to die.

Racism is a wall of the mind that cannot be torn down. Wanting to tear it down is like inviting people to discriminate you for being a Korean (that's for Venusincap), a woman or man, a person with special needs, an immigrant, a foreigner. And those who are behind this wall don't want to do that and never will. This battle is forever lost.

The only question around Trump is: Are you/we racist/sexist/xenophobic?

If we aren't, we condemn any support to any attempt at racism/sexism/xenophobia.

If we are, we just are, with no way around it, with all the incurred moral/spiritual/social consequences.

It's that simple. That's an explanation of the anti-racism/anti-prejudice mindset.

------------------
I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted November 13, 2016 12:53 PM            

Hugs to you

posted November 13, 2016 01:48 PM            

Absolutely fine with waterboarding high value captured terrorists who are uncooperative under usual interrogation.

American military personnel are WATERBOARDED as part of their "SERE" training...Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape training.

posted November 13, 2016 02:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:
"so, how do you trump fans justify that? Are you okay with waterboarding....

Absolutely fine with waterboarding high value captured terrorists who are uncooperative under usual interrogation.

American military personnel are WATERBOARDED as part of their "SERE" training...Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape training.

If you have a problem with Waterboarding, go give the Marxist Messiah Obama a gigantic crotch kick because he obviously approves of Waterboarding.

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thank you for you response
basically i always have issues with torture, doesn't matter if the president is Trump, Obama, Hillary, Alf, Messiahs, purple Alien or whatever.

and what about muslim ban? there are billions of muslims....

and what about that wall to Mexico?

and what about throwing women into jail for having had an abortion?

posted November 13, 2016 03:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Hillary only cares about herself. ,,,.

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