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Author Topic:   Christianity Today comes out for Impeachment
teasel
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posted December 21, 2019 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The man I reconnected with this year, is religious, and he is thinking about leaving his church (that is apparently based in Arizona), because they're pushing trump, and they're in a different country. He doesn't like trump at all, doesn't believe him to be moral, or religious.

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teasel
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posted December 21, 2019 11:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mirage29:
Randall, I very much doubt that Obama would have lied and said he was 'born' in Kenya on his college applications..

It's probably rumor-based info, spread by folks who have maliciously hated him from even-before he was elected President.


Yes.

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Randall
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posted December 21, 2019 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, but Hillary is moral? Because that was the other choice.

"My father knew Donald Trump, believed in Donald Trump. And in the last election, he voted for Donald Trump. And if he were here today, I'm sure he would tell you that himself." Franklin Graham

A new poll among Republican evangelicals shows 99 percent oppose impeachment.

And 81 percent of all evangelicals voted for President Trump, with his approval now at 84 percent.

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Randall
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posted December 21, 2019 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In other words, this is not a game changer. It's not even a blip on the radar.

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teasel
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posted December 21, 2019 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We aren't talking about Hillary, and neither was he. He's in a totally different country, and his church is trying to push Rump onto them. The man has a brain and a heart, and he's using them both. He isn't ruled by Democrats versus Republicans.

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Randall
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posted December 21, 2019 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jwhop has already educated you on the facts--even though it didn't take.

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teasel
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posted December 21, 2019 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Jwhop has already educated you on the facts--even though it didn't take.

You mean your alternative facts?

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shura
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posted December 21, 2019 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As long as Trump guards Israel, the evangelicals will guard him.

His moral failings are regrettable but ultimately irrelevant. King David was an immoral man. And? Evangelicals believe God uses kings to further His will. As boorish, corrupt, and spiritually blind as the Evangelical Church is, this is a longstanding Christian belief. Consider the many kings who spread Christianity throughout Europe. Most would make Trump look like an Eagle Scout. But they fulfilled Divine Will.

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Randall
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posted December 21, 2019 08:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Evangelical take is that President Trump is placed in the White House by God to protect Israel and the unborn. Saul murdered thousands of Christians in cold blood until one day in the desert, he was blinded by the Light of God. He became Paul.

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Randall
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posted December 21, 2019 08:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
President is the most pro-Israel president in history. No other president has ever defended religious liberty like President Trump.

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Randall
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posted December 21, 2019 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
President Trump is the most pro-Israel president in history. No other president has ever defended religious liberty like President Trump.

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Randall
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posted December 21, 2019 09:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.yahoo.com/news/evangelical-leaders-close-ranks-trump-150745454.html

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Randall
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posted December 21, 2019 10:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MIGA: Make Impeachment Great Again

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Belage
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posted December 22, 2019 11:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
http://www.yahoo.com/news/evangelical-leaders-close-ranks-trump-150745454.html

It is a very nuanced article that actually supports the idea that the evangelical base is not a monolith behind Trump.

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jwhop
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posted December 22, 2019 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
MIGA: Make Impeachment Great Again

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Belage
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posted December 22, 2019 11:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
... No other president has ever defended religious liberty like President Trump.

in the US, religious liberties (of Christians) were not really threatened until the Obama administration.

https://www.politico.com/story/2012/02/obamas-assault-on-religious-freedom-072617

Obama's policy of ramming his idea of scial progress down the throat of the religious right was imo his Achille's heel. And of course it fuels the conspiracy theories that he was not really Christian, but Muslim sympathetic. I don't believe it but I see why others do.

Anyway, Trump understood that flaw in the Obama legacy and seized the opportunity to portray himself (a heathen to the core) as the protector of religious freedom. Because he is championing their freedom of religion, it doesn't really matter how immoral, crass, unchristian he is in other areas of his life, the religious right is backing him up because the Obama Administration has put them in survival mode.

The Democrats have never really had the deep necessary conversations on this subject to see how they can salvage their reputation when it comes to this. I voted for Obama not once but twice, but even I was umcomfortable with his stance on religious freedom. I support reproductive rights, but I don't support forcing religious organizations to violate their beliefs on this and other matters such as LGBT issues.

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teasel
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posted December 22, 2019 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
MIGA: Make Impeachment Great Again

Oh yeah, I'm sure it's a real honour, being impeached. This is just silly.

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teasel
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posted December 22, 2019 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I heard two older white women, talking in the cafe at the bookstore - first they were having a laugh, then they started on politics, and how evil liberals are. The one backed off when I shot her a look, but started her rant again a little while later. I just walked away. One of her rants was that white men and Christians are apparently endangered in this country.

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mirage29
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posted December 22, 2019 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a quick note.
Haven't abandoned reading and posting.

There are several comments I'm eager to address.
Shura {great-comment and rich-content}.
Randall's ...

My ability to communicate right now is frustrated.
I'll come back to concentrate when I can.
I hope too much time doesn't go by?
If it does, I had 'intended' to respond.

Hope y'all have a Great Holiday!
Good Food. Warm visits with family.
And much Peace.

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Randall
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posted December 22, 2019 05:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mirage29:
Randall, I very much doubt that Obama would have lied and said he was 'born' in Kenya on his college applications..

It's probably rumor-based info, spread by folks who have maliciously hated him from even-before he was elected President.


Sounds similar to those who hated President Trump. That could very well be the case, but didn't Obama refuse to reveal his college records?

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shura
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posted December 23, 2019 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Merry Christmas, mirage!

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teasel
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posted December 23, 2019 11:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://twitter.com/funder/status/1209262402077908992

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jwhop
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posted December 24, 2019 12:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nearly 200 evangelical leaders rebuke Christianity Today for anti-Trump editorial
Jacob Knutson
14 hours ago

A group of nearly 200 conservative evangelical leaders sent a letter Sunday rebuking a Christianity Today editorial that called for President Trump's removal, the AP reports.

The big picture: The evangelical leaders wrote to the magazine's president, Timothy Dalrymple, saying that the piece from editor-in-chief Mark Galli "offensively questioned the spiritual integrity and Christian witness of tens-of-millions of believers who take seriously their civic and moral obligations."......
http://www.axios.com/trump-impeachment-evangelical-leaders-christianity-today-3d2301e8-8fbe-4d0a-8b65-08df0138b5a0.html

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mirage29
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posted December 28, 2019 10:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shura:
Merry Christmas, mirage!

And a very Merry Christmas, to you also, Shura!

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mirage29
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posted December 28, 2019 11:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mirage29     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To be honest, I've been in a personal turmoil over all this.

Back on April 13, 1987 {almost 33 years ago} I went to sleep late that night, and had a religious mystical experience in a dream. I "woke up" and found myself a 'new' person inside from that encounter. Also had had a "preparation" dream one week before on April 6, that paved the way for that transforming "experience" of April 13 to 14th.

I hadn't really "realized" that I had had a conversion experience until I went to a little nearby Baptist church to describe (to a stranger) the wonder of what happened in the dream and the resulting 'change' within me. The preacher took out a bible and quoted verses. It was like hearing a 'new' book to me. I had read the scriptures before and had never Understood the meanings, until that experience.

I had Christ's Spirit move INTO me, not just "religiously-dogmatically" remaining like a detached-thing I did on Sundays, involving the OUTSIDE.

I wasn't really attending church at all during that time. It was one of the least-spiritual time periods of my life.

I became a member of a nondenom Pentecostal-type of church a year later. I was baptized in the Holy Ghost... and that's an awakening experience in itself. A lot of evangelicals stop short of that. Some 'think' they do it, when they have NOT had the FULL experience.

During that time I was FULLY active in church activities. It was a second home. My kids were basically 'raised' in the church. I tithed faithfully, no matter what my finances said. I was giving to honor to 'God'.

In the mean time, my pastor at that time was ALSO involved in the "Prosperity Gospel" group. He had been a TOP sales-person in the World for a Japanese electronics company. I attended EVERY business prayer-breakfast he held. I learned a lot.

Soon that pastor had a reputation for taking HUMONGOUS offerings, and he was popular on the church speakers-tour to give 'lessons' to other pastors on HOW to get congregants to give up that money.

Our church was a smaller mega-church.
Statistically, we 'gave' more in offerings than other churches in this nation.
We had rich people in our church, but these didn't GIVE much. The ones who supported the church were the dedicated middle-class members in the church.

We didn't just support the church, but ALSO gave lavishly to all the Missionary Events, and special causes that our pastor was involved with in foreign countries.

I LOVED knowing that it was the finances that my girls and I GAVE, that paid for a new roof over the heads of Orphans in Nigeria. I can still cry tears over their situation and my being able to help remedy it.

I was given a one-year full scholarship to attend full-time ministry school, BY pledged support from a few individuals in my congregation. One person bought ALL my textbooks. I was VERY grateful. My boss from the secular job I had to quit to go to this school, pledged (with his wife) to cover the monthly apartment rent for myself and the girls while I attended school. Out of the blue, someone else NOT involved in my church had kindly offered to watch my youngest daughter whose kindergarten class was only 1/2 day. I also took on a part-time work, to pay for other expenses for the girls and me.
.. {It was the LAST year of that college opportunity, and I didn't get to complete the WHOLE ministry program-- just the foundations of excellent teaching by a fantastic elderly beautiful white-haired bible teacher/scholar. They had had an accreditation-standing at that time.}
.. The excellent quality condensed education classes ended.
{The school was watered/dumbed-down later and the pastor reorganized it business-wise and put his own name on everything, rather than relating it to God anymore.}

I took my GIVING very very very seriously.


At this point in my life, I'll be 65 at end of May.
I live WAYYYYY below the poverty line now.
Currently having some real health-challenges BECAUSE of the bottom-line of finances.

Some criticized me that 'ALL that MONEY' I gave TO the church (and that pastor's missions) COULD have been saved and put into a bank account for my future-years?
.. And maybe that's true. I 'financed' my pastor and his million-dollar home, instead?
-- No. I don't feel that way. I was giving for the PEOPLE that the pastor reached.

Now, at my older years, I'm on the brink of unsheltered homelessness, with a very sensitive body.. *bheart*? I have no family to rely on for help in my most-vulnerable elder years.


How I 'think' and feel about that?
My designated DOLLARS are still energetically active in the Heavens. ANY money I have EVER donated to ANYONE, were 'consecrated' funds, and 'proportionally' high.

It means that it HOLDS all those "Leaders" (and, any kind of "Influencers" I've ever donated to)--- into the power of a spiritual ACCOUNTABLITY for everything they DO--

including MORAL and ethical decisions they are making.

For any of the ministries I've given to-- and some of those Evangelicals that have represented themselves in recent year--- as Beholden' Representatives of GOD's Reputation on this earth, the finances that I have given proportionally, speak before God. And this asks for their personal accountability.


Like Shura was saying...

Scripture says that God is involved in choosing Leaders, especially the ones who invoke God's involvement.


Gently, in case you hadn't heard---
sometimes God 'allows' some Kings to be in power, in order to 'punish' his people.

His people??? … The FIRST judgments fall upon those who are the religious pastors and leaders, and any other religious titles given in any Abrahamic belief-system. THEY go first in line.

Their forming this Coalition, will be a religious versus spiritual Divider.

Scripture says God will separate the sheep from the "goats". Those who 'live' according to what they preach and represent, and those who are twisting scriptures, and remaking interpretations of the bible in order to 'fit' their own prosperity-agendas.

As President Trump has pretty-much said-- He-himself has arranged for those Evangelists to prosper themselves financially, {meaning that they could have completely and unknowingly placed themselves in jeopardy of a 'snare', of becoming too-far 'compromised' now that they would not want to stop and lose-face; that might take courage}.

He not-just prospered their missions {which is an EXCELLENT thing to have done-- *Heart*}; but each one of those also privately and individually don't pay taxes on their mega-million dollar homes, etc. They 'use' their pulpits as a way to privately add to their own coffers now, too. That's like mixing-money boundaries?
.. I am vaguely vaguely aware that there were folks out there saying that these churches need to pay taxes? .. I think that 'scared' some of them! LOL.
.. But you see, there would have been ways to take 'Charitable Giving' OFF their taxes too.. So all those Dollars being Donated to their Causes would have BALANCED OUT the paying of taxes??
.. And, it meant that the megamillion homes would be taxed. Right now, they are considered 'parsonages' and a benefit from the church who PAYS their salaries and pays for their home.

hmmmm. It gets 'complicated'???

Jesus had WARNED about following GOD, or following mammon (lust for money). You can't SERVE two-masters.

Through constantly forgiving themselves for their OWN wrongdoings, and promoting greed, they MAY have spiritually "seared their Conscience?" {scripture ref}. They can't "feel" it, nor discern between what is moral and what is not anymore.... It's ALL been so mixed in together. Blending. .. "too much poop mixed-in with the applebutter?"

They have "tweaked" scripture meanings, in order to say that it's okay to "wink" at sin? Called it people's 'duty' to "cover" the sins of their leaders... Look the other way, and call that Right.
{ref. interp of story of "rewarding" for covering of Noah's 'nakedness'{{HUGE sins}}, that I had heard in online church in the past year.}

I have never 'hidden' the fact of being a Christian before.

AT this point, these evangelicals are going to LOSE members who are not in agreement with their "politics". These pastors are NOW placing the burden of Morality Choices ONTO their congregants and watching-members {for online churches}.

I have been in online Prayer Invocations for leaders and nations-- in a politically-GENERIC way-- UNTIL I heard a minister ONLY pray for the teaparty agenda to be fulfilled. I was horrified. I didn't "trust" really DELVING in DEEP Prayers of Manifestation, UNTIL that moment.

They were praying POLITICAL AGENDAS be fulfilled--

Not God's Blessings over Leaders and Nations, and ALL the Peoples of the World.

These are "now" making Churches Toxic.

Like I was saying, I've never hesitated to say that I was Christian, and that I was of a Pentecostal kind of faith---- But NOW that these are branding RELIGION as UNDER Political Agendas, I might have to back-away FROM identifying self IN their declarations after more than several decades.

I "spiritually" remain a Lover of Christ.
And, I cannot 'condone' what these evangelicals are doing and saying, AS the anointed and consecrated representatives of Christ.

I need make a decision??

As part of their LISTING of Tenents of their Beliefs on advertisements now, they will HAVE to Brand themselves-- as either supporting of Republican agendas, or Democrats???
God Forbid {--Paul, in Romans, LOL}

If I say I'm evangelically inclined, does that "PREJUCIDE" me {sic} into being labelled as belonging to 'one' political party's membership?


I have not been able to find a church in my area. I've tried groups, and they are toxically Political.

Including when I tried to renew self at a local Catholic church several years ago after Pope Francis was elected.

Had to step away from THAT one, BECAUSE they let politics TOXIFY their Pulpits constantly-- they openly despised Pope Francis?? During segments of the Mass where they 'pray' for Leaders and 'name' them?, their voice had a glint of dissatisfaction, instead of prayerful upliftment. No way I was going to let them spoil that. *bheart* .. I left them once more.

quote:
from Reverend Billy Graham ..

Evangelists can’t be closely identified with any particular party or person. We have to stand in the middle in order to preach to all people, right and left. I haven’t been faithful to my own advice in the past. I will be in the future.

I told [Jerry Falwell] to preach the Gospel. That’s our calling. I want to preserve the purity of the Gospel and the freedom of religion in America. I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. Liberals organized in the ’60s, and conservatives certainly have a right to organize in the ’80s, but it would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it.
-- Billy Graham, Parade Magazine Interview, 1 February 1981.



When I personally vote,
I vote FOR the BEST CANDIDATE for the job to be done. I chose candidates that I think are qualified by skills, and by the fiber of their Character.

I've voted FOR republicans as well as for democrats. I used to list myself as 'independent' UNTIL I found out that independent is a Political party.
..... oops! LOL

I vote for "America" !
I vote for the welfare of ALL her people,
.. more than my own self-interests.
.. which in last elections I found out was 'wrong'.
They WANT people to vote for only what's good for their own self??

My God! .. that's hard to do.
I am sensitive to other people's suffering.

{{I know I 'missed' saying some things that I had wanted to address also.. but this post is already too long??? ))

Take Good Care of your selves..
With Love.

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