posted November 14, 2020 02:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dhyana:

Until all the evidence is made public, assuming it is, and examined, it would be premature to accept this statement as true.

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posted November 14, 2020 02:13 PM            

quote:

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In quick succession, Mr. Trump was handed defeats in Pennsylvania, Arizona and Michigan, where a state judge in Detroit rejected an unusual Republican attempt to halt the certification of the vote in Wayne County pending an audit of the count.

The legal losses came as Mr. Biden was declared the victor in Georgia and a day after an agency in the president�s own Department of Homeland Security flatly contradicted him by declaring that the election �was the most secure in American history� and that �there is no evidence� any voting systems malfunctioned.

On Friday, 16 federal prosecutors who had been assigned to monitor the election also directly debunked claims of widespread fraud, saying in a letter to Attorney General William P. Barr that there was no evidence of substantial irregularities.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/13/us/politics/trump-loses-election-lawsuits.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

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posted November 14, 2020 02:23 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Except that there are PLENTY of witnesses, so one side actually has a leg to stand on and has been making its case quite adequately. This isn't a "both sides" issue. It's a one side issue hoping for a Hail Mary.

[QUOTE]In quick succession, Mr. Trump was handed defeats in Pennsylvania, Arizona and Michigan, where a state judge in Detroit rejected an unusual Republican attempt to halt the certification of the vote in Wayne County pending an audit of the count.

The legal losses came as Mr. Biden was declared the victor in Georgia and a day after an agency in the president�s own Department of Homeland Security flatly contradicted him by declaring that the election �was the most secure in American history� and that �there is no evidence� any voting systems malfunctioned.

On Friday, 16 federal prosecutors who had been assigned to monitor the election also directly debunked claims of widespread fraud, saying in a letter to Attorney General William P. Barr that there was no evidence of substantial irregularities.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/13/us/politics/trump-loses-election-lawsuits.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

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I hear you Acousticgod. All I mean is that if the process and counts are being reviewed as per the election rules, then in respect of the principles of the system, it is a bit premature for anyone to suppose anything until that process is complete.

posted November 14, 2020 04:14 PM            

No one said a 'supercomputer' was used to switch votes from Trump to Biden.

The allegation is that votes were switched by inserting computer code into counting machine 'updates'. Those Dominion machines should be impounded and analyzed by computer experts...you know, before the program is delected..or the machines 'disappear'.

posted November 14, 2020 06:24 PM            

quote:

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In an Oct. 11 order, just weeks prior to the presidential election, U.S. District Judge Amy Totenberg [Georgia] agreed with the concerns associated with the new Dominion voting system, writing that the case presented �gserious system security vulnerability and operational issues..."

These risks are neither hypothetical nor remote under the current circumstances,�h Judge Totenberg wrote in her order.

Despite the court�fs misgivings, Totenberg ruled against replacing the Dominion system right before the presidential election.

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posted November 14, 2020 06:37 PM            

quote:

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Don't believe conspiracy theories. Acknowledge that there are actors on your side that go to great lengths to concoct these tales for people that will believe them.

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It turns out "President Trump colluded with Russia to steal the 2016 election" was a conspiracy theory concocted by the Clinton campaign and Democrats who have gone to great lengths to remove him from office. No I didn't buy that one and neither did the Mueller investigation conclude the same.

posted November 15, 2020 01:20 AM            

WASHINGTON (AP) � The Trump campaign�s interactions with Russian intelligence services during the 2016 presidential election posed a �grave� counterintelligence threat, a Senate panel concluded Tuesday as it detailed how associates of Donald Trump had regular contact with Russians and expected to benefit from the Kremlin�s help.

The nearly 1,000-page report, the fifth and final one from the Republican-led Senate intelligence committee on the Russia investigation, details how Russia launched an aggressive effort to interfere in the election on Trump�s behalf. It says the Trump campaign chairman had regular contact with a Russian intelligence officer and that other Trump associates were eager to exploit the Kremlin�s aid, particularly by maximizing the impact of the disclosure of Democratic emails hacked by Russian intelligence officers.
https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-elections-politics-campaigns-5e833a62e9492f6a66624b7920cc846a

quote:

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I decide what to acknowledge based on evidence presented in a court of law, not the opinions of anonymous posters on the internet.

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posted November 15, 2020 11:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
But why do you always believe trump? It�s hard to have a thoughtful exchange when the majority of people here do that. It�s just �believe him, everything else is a lie.�

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Your question could easily be turned around and I could ask you, why do you always disbelieve Trump? Your attitude is "don't believe him, everything fron him is a lie."

Everything Trump has done, every move he has taken has been attacked by the media and people like you.

As a perfect example, in January 2020, when Trump decided to close flights from China due to Covid, he had to DEFEND his decision, meaning, people didn't agree and attacked him for it.

NY Times: Trump Defends Closing Borders to Travelers to Fight Coronavirus
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/us/politics/trump-super-bowl-interview-coronavirus.html

In February, Nancy Pelosi was so much into placating the president that she went and spent a publicity stunt filled Sunday in San Francisco Chinatown, to show that she felt safe among people coming from China.
Pandemic, what pandemic?
https://abc7news.com/sf-chinatown-pelosi-san-francisco-coronavirus-fears/5964696/
And the dems are saying Trump was downplaying Covid?

What I see is that after dealing with pushback from the left for moving aggressively with closing borders, Trump decided to downplay the Covid, and the same people who criticized him for closing borders later on criticized him for downplaying covid.

posted November 15, 2020 11:23 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
It's nice to be appreciated! I am genuinely interested.

So, I guess we will just have to wait for the results of the investigations then.

The statement was linked through the British media, a BBC article I read today. I'll link it below. Do you think the BBC are colluding in gaslighting the American people?

Here is the BBC article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54926084

---

It is no secret that Trump has angered major political players on the European scene. There are a lot of people in Europe who want Trump gone. Some of it is his own doing, in the way he talk to and about world leadears.

posted November 15, 2020 11:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
It is no secret that Trump has angered major political players on the European scene. There are a lot of people in Europe who want Trump gone.

Listen, the media is not a separate entity removed from the humans who comprise it. The media will only be as impartial as the humans who make it can remain impartial and emotionally detached.

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Impartiality is a nice idea, however is it ever really possible to be completely impartial? No one is a blank slate. This debate has been raging in research for decades. With being human, comes bias. It is unavoidable. They deal with it in research by being transparent about what their biases are. Perhaps the media could do with adopting the same principle.

I have the same trouble with the concept of 'altruism' - how can an act ever be purely altruistic when the altruistic act itself generates a psychological reward?

posted November 15, 2020 11:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dhyana:
Belage, despite the gaslighting by the media, the evidence that is coming out demonstrates widespread fraud across multiple states. What is happening before our eyes is unreal. Joe Biden "President elect" is an illusion that's being orchestrated by powerful agencies within our government with the help of the media. I thought to myself "Neptune must be involved" and it is. In the U.S. chart, both transiting Neptune and the Nodes are forming a Grand Cross with the U.S. Neptune, which I believe illustrates what is happening right now.

I know the Sibley chart is the one most often used, but in the Gemini rising chart that I use for a number of reasons, the transiting Nodes are conjunct the ASC-DESC axis. In addition, in the Gemini rising chart, President Trump's Nodes, along with his Sun, Uranus, and Moon are conjunct the ASC-DESC axis.

It seems to me this election at this time is at least one of the most significant periods in our history and that President Trump is inextricably a part of this.

There are other things, but I'll leave it at that.

Any thoughts?

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Yes, Neptune is playing into this election. On election day, the moon in Gemini at the North Node was also squaring Neptune in Pisces.

Neptune's smoke & mirrors actions are not coming from Trump, but from Trump's enemy. In Trump's chart, transit Neptune fall in his 7th house of enemies.

ETA: Same Neptune is also trining Biden's 12th house scorpio stellium of behind the scenes dealings. Meaning, the current Neptune is landing a hand to his behind the scene activities. With Biden, what you see is not what you get.

posted November 15, 2020 11:35 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Bogus Theory Claims Supercomputer Switched Votes in Election

By Angelo Fichera and Saranac Hale Spencer

Posted on November 13, 2020

Quick Take

A baseless conspiracy theory claims that a secret supercomputer was used to switch votes from Donald Trump to Joe Biden. Experts � and the federal Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency � have said the theory is a hoax and that safeguards, including paper trails, would deter such an effort.

Full Story

As President-elect Joe Biden prepares a transition to the White House and President Donald Trump mounts challenges to election results, federal and state officials have declared that the 2020 election was the �most secure in American history.�

But a conspiracy theory that has been swirling online suggests the opposite, baselessly claiming that a supercomputer and special software were used to systematically switch votes and cement Biden�s victory.

[b]That bogus theory is directly disputed by federal and state officials, as well as experts who study election security.

The U.S. Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency has flatly rejected such claims. The agency�s director, Chris Krebs � who was appointed by Trump � called the theory �nonsense� and a �hoax.�

CISA has said that safeguards � including auditable logs and software checks � used by states ensure accuracy in the vote totals.

Still, in the days after the election, the theory has received significant attention on social media and on national TV.

Sidney Powell, an attorney who has represented Michael Flynn, Trump�s former national security adviser, espoused it on Fox Business on Nov. 6 � saying that ballots were changed �using the Hammer program and a software program called Scorecard� � and that she had �evidence that that is exactly what happened.� She repeated the theory two days later to Fox News� Maria Bartiromo.

We reached out to Powell to ask what her supposed �evidence� was and she didn�t provide any, telling us instead to �Stay tuned.�

Dubious Origins

The conspiracy theory appeared several days before the election on a dubious blog called the American Report, which ran an Oct. 31 story claiming that Biden was �using SCORECARD and THE HAMMER To Steal Another Presidential Election.�

The story cited a so-called �whistleblower,� Dennis Montgomery, to claim that an intelligence supercomputer (�HAMMER�) and accompanying software (�SCORECARD�) had the capability to hack elections and steal votes. It went on to claim with no proof that Biden and former President Barack Obama had won reelection in 2012 using the system, and that Biden had beaten his rival in the Democratic primary, Sen. Bernie Sanders, through such means.

Montgomery has a history of making dubious claims going back more than a decade.

A company he co-owned, called eTreppid, won millions of dollars in federal defense contracts following the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. But, according to an FBI investigation in 2006, his partner in the business said that he deceived Pentagon officials.

In one case, according to an FBI interview with the business partner, Montgomery fabricated a test for Department of Defense officials of the company�s �recognition software� for weapons. While the officials waited inside the company�s office, the business partner said, Montgomery took a toy bazooka into a nearby field and, instead of having the technology actually recognize the weapon, he pinged the cell phone of an employee, who was waiting to push a button and make a picture of a bazooka appear on the screen.

In another case detailed in a 2014 book, the CIA believed that one of Montgomery�s programs could detect secret codes from al Qaeda that were hidden in broadcasts from the news network Al-Jazeera. Although this led to the grounding of U.S.-bound flights from France, Britain and Mexico in December 2003, the technology was ultimately determined to be bogus. Montgomery objected to that characterization and sued the author and publisher. But he failed to provide evidence that his technology actually worked, and the judge ruled against him.

Flawed Theory

The theory espoused in the American Report story doesn�t make sense for several reasons, Dan Wallach, a computer science professor at Rice University who researches voting security, told us in a phone interview.

The story claims that �SCORECARD steals elections by tampering with the computers at transfer points of state election computer systems and outside third party data election result vaults.�

If a hacking operation tried to change votes at the state aggregation level, Wallach said, there are county-level results with which to compare those figures. And if a county�s votes were manipulated, there are results from precincts � and individual paper ballots or individual paperless voting machines � to verify those figures.

Ballot boxes, voting machines and election equipment are also subject to various chain-of-custody protections.

�The implication of this conspiracy theory is that there can be an undetectable, irrevocable change made � and that implication is false,� he said.

Likewise, J. Alex Halderman, a professor of computer science and engineering at the University of Michigan, told us the conspiracy theory is �nonsense.�

�Most votes across the country are counted by computer scanners at polling places or, for mail-in ballots, at central locations in each county,� Halderman, who is also director of the university�s Center for Computer Security and Society, said in an email. �Election workers then copy the totals from each scanner (most often using memory cards or USB sticks) to a computer called an election management system, which adds them up and produces the initial, unofficial results.�

�However, every ballot scanner is required by law (under the Help America Vote Act of 2002) to produce a paper printout summarizing the vote totals for the ballots it counted,� he continued. �Nearly every state, before it certifies the official election results, compares the reported results to the physical printout from each scanner. If an error or fraud affected the reporting process, it will be caught during this process, before the results are declared official. These routine checks both add an extra layer of security and help deter attackers from targeting the reporting process in the first place.�

The American Report story also argued that votes would be stolen in Florida when the state transferred data to a third party called VR Systems. As the fact-checking website Lead Stories points out, that company doesn�t even work with vote tabulation.

VR Systems Chief Operating Officer Ben Martin confirmed in a statement to us that the company �does not do voter tabulation and is not connected to county or state voter tabulation systems.� The company instead �provides elections software and services to election officials who manage the voter check-in process� and also supports officials with websites and databases for voters to check polling locations and voter registration status.

And while the American Report story claims the company has contracts in eight states, Martin said the company only does work in three.

CNN Video Shows Error, Not Fraud

On Twitter and Facebook, thousands of users shared a false claim that a CNN video from election night is evidence of the supposed vote-stealing operation in action.

It�s not.

In the video, vote totals for Pennsylvania displayed on screen by CNN can be seen going up for Biden by 19,958 as they go down for Trump by that same amount.

But the error was actually a simple mistake by a research firm that gathers results data for CNN and others; it wasn�t a change in the reporting by election officials. (It�s worth noting, though, that those vote tallies are unofficial tallies, not final, official results.) The mistake was corrected about an hour later.

Edison Research, which provides vote tabulation data to CNN and other networks, said that the moment of Trump dropping by 19,958 was caused by a brief reporting error on its end.

Rob Farbman, Edison�s executive vice president, told us that Edison did receive the correct vote totals from Armstrong County in Pennsylvania through a state feed � which at that point in time was 24,233 votes for Trump and 4,275 votes for Biden. But a team member, while scouring individual county vote totals, then mistakenly entered the county�s totals backwards � 24,233 votes for Biden and 4,275 votes for Trump.

A CNN source also confirmed that the matter came down to vote totals in Armstrong County being briefly transposed in the feed provided to the network, but that the accurate figures were soon restored.

�It was simple human error,� Farbman told us by email, noting the mistake was corrected about an hour later.

Trump has secured 27,340 votes in Armstrong County, compared with Biden�s 8,417. Biden�s lead in the state is about 60,000 votes.

Editor�s note: FactCheck.org is one of several organizations working with Facebook to debunk misinformation shared on social media. Our previous stories can be found here.

This fact check is available at IFCN�s 2020 US Elections FactChat #Chatbot on WhatsApp. Click here for more.
Sources

Dennis L. Montgomery v. James Risen. �Memorandum Opinion.� U.S. District Court, District of Columbia. 15 Jul 2016.

Farbman, Rob. Executive vice president, Edison Research. Email to FactCheck.org. 13 Nov 2020.

�Government�s Compliance With Court Order of August 17, 2006.� U.S. District Court, District of Nevada. 11 Sep 2006.

Halderman, J. Alex. Professor of computer science and engineering, University of Michigan. Email to FactCheck.org. 11 Nov 2020.

�Joint Statement From Elections Infrastructure Government Coordinating Council & The Election Infrastructure Sector Coordinating Executive Committees.� U.S. Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency. 12 Nov 2020.

Powell, Sidney. Attorney. Email to FactCheck.org. 11 Nov 2020.

Krebs, Chris (@CISAKrebs). �Same as yesterday, Hammer and Scorecard is still a hoax. Thats it. That�s the tweet.� Twitter. 8 Nov 2020.

Krebs, Chris (@CISAKrebs). �To be crystal clear on Downwards arrow, I�m specifically referring to the Hammer and Scorecard nonsense. It�s just that � nonsense. This is not a real thing, don�t fall for it and think 2x before you share. #Protect2020� Twitter. 7 Nov 2020.

Martin, Ben. Chief Operating Officer, VR Systems. Statement to FactCheck.org. 12 Nov 2020.

Miller, Dean. �Fact Check: Secret Super-Computer Is NOT Stealing Votes Through Voter Interface Contractor.� Lead Stories. 3 Nov 2020.

�Pennsylvania Elections � County Results | Armstrong.� Pennsylvania Department of State. Accessed 13 Nov 2020.

�Pennsylvania Elections � Summary Results | Statewide.� Pennsylvania Department of State. Accessed 13 Nov 2020.

Richardson, Louise. �James Risen�s �Pay Any Price.'� New York Times. 15 Oct 2014.

�Rumor Control.� U.S. Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency. Accessed 10 Nov 2020.

Sommer, Will. �Infamous �Hoax� Artist Behind Trumpworld�s New Voter Fraud Claim.� Daily Beast. 8 Nov 2020.

Wallach, Dan. Professor of computer science, Rice University. Phone interview with FactCheck.org. 13 Nov 2020.

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https://www.factcheck.org/2020/11/bogus-theory-claims-supercomputer-switched-votes-in-election/

Not "premature" whatsoever, Dhyana. Don't believe conspiracy theories. Acknowledge that there are actors on your side that go to great lengths to concoct these tales for people that will believe them.[/B]

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The "impartial" "fact" checkers are at it again...

posted November 15, 2020 11:58 AM            

For months, the media has been peddling those "scientific" and "reliable" polls saying that Biden was leading Trump by 10-20%. That the election turned out to be so close, even if Biden ends up being the winner should give room for thought to any impartial thinker.

How could the polls have been so WRONG?

1) Some say they were purposely wrong to deny Trump financial backers for his election bid.

2) Others say they were wrong because people were not comfortable giving their real opinion. Which begs the question? What kind of political climate has been fostered where people are afraid to give their true opinion?

3) The other darker opinion is that the polls were purposefully wrong in other to prepare the American public and the World to accept beforehand a Biden win, in a a stolen election where votes were going to be skeewed in favor of Biden.

posted November 15, 2020 12:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belage:
The last thing I am going to say before taking another break for a few days is about the polls.

For months, the media has been peddling those "scientific" and "reliable" polls saying that Biden was leading Trump by 10-20%. That the election turned out to be so close, even if Biden ends up being the winner should give room for thought to any impartial thinker.

How could the polls have been so WRONG?

1) Some say they were purposely wrong to deny Trump financial backers for his election bid.

2) Others say they were wrong because people were not comfortable giving their real opinion. Which begs the question? What kind of political climate has been fostered where people are afraid to give their true opinion?

3) The other darker opinion is that the polls were purposefully wrong in other to prepare the American public and the World to accept beforehand a Biden win, in a a stolen election where votes were going to be skeewed in favor of Biden.

Regardless, these polls were a joke, and people ought to ask themselves, WHY?

---

I'll hazard a guess.

When I was reading about the US election news, so much of the information was conflicting that I wondered just how the American people could decide who to elect.

So much mud-slinging and abhorrent allegations from both sides, that to me it would have made more sense to decline to vote at all.

To take just one example: both Biden and Trump have been accused of sexual assaults. How on earth can one choose between potential sex offenders?

Add to this (and all the other allegations such as tax fraud, colluding with enemies of the state, etc) a complicated political system, and you get a nightmare situation where, if I were an American citizen, I wouldn't have a clue who to vote for.

posted November 15, 2020 01:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belage:
Yes, Neptune is playing into this election. On election day, the moon in Gemini at the North Node was also squaring Neptune in Pisces.

Neptune's smoke & mirrors actions are not coming from Trump, but from Trump's enemy. In Trump's chart, transit Neptune fall in his 7th house of enemies.

ETA: Same Neptune is also trining Biden's 12th house scorpio stellium of behind the scenes dealings. Meaning, the current Neptune is landing a hand to his behind the scene activities. With Biden, what you see is not what you get.

---

Good points.

posted November 15, 2020 01:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belage:
Your question could easily be turned around and I could ask you, why do you always disbelieve Trump? Your attitude is "don't believe him, everything fron him is a lie."

Everything Trump has done, every move he has taken has been attacked by the media and people like you.

As a perfect example, in January 2020, when Trump decided to close flights from China due to Covid, he had to DEFEND his decision, meaning, people didn't agree and attacked him for it.

NY Times: Trump Defends Closing Borders to Travelers to Fight Coronavirus
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/us/politics/trump-super-bowl-interview-coronaviru s.html

In February, Nancy Pelosi was so much into placating the president that she went and spent a publicity stunt filled Sunday in San Francisco Chinatown, to show that she felt safe among people coming from China.
Pandemic, what pandemic?
https://abc7news.com/sf-chinatown-pelosi-san-francisco-coronavirus-fears/5964696/
And the dems are saying Trump was downplaying Covid?

What I see is that after dealing with pushback from the left for moving aggressively with closing borders, Trump decided to downplay the Covid, and the same people who criticized him for closing borders later on criticized him for downplaying covid.

---

First of all, because he fired the pandemic team that was in place, and has fueled conspiracy theories. I rarely criticize the democrats here, because it�s such a parade of praise for Trump in here. Nancy pelosi was criticized by liberals for planning to go forward with a big dinner party, at the same time that we are all being told to cancel thanksgiving gatherings, and be careful.

I recall a man I know on another site, pointing out that the liberals argue and criticize each other, and the republicans stop that, and get to work on their agendas. They rallied around trump, even though most hated him, and said so when he was campaigning.

posted November 15, 2020 01:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I'll hazard a guess.

When I was reading about the US election news, so much of the information was conflicting that I wondered just how the American people could decide who to elect.

So much mud-slinging and abhorrent allegations from both sides, that to me it would have made more sense to decline to vote at all.

To take just one example: both Biden and Trump have been accused of sexual assaults. How on earth can one choose between potential sex offenders?

Add to this (and all the other allegations such as tax fraud, colluding with enemies of the state, etc) a complicated political system, and you get a nightmare situation where, if I were an American citizen, I wouldn't have a clue who to vote for.

But, of course, this is from the outside looking in.

---

I�ve seen and participated in discussions like that on other sites. I wondered if we could get rid of both candidates, but that was never going to happen.

posted November 15, 2020 01:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I'll hazard a guess.

When I was reading about the US election news, so much of the information was conflicting that I wondered just how the American people could decide who to elect.

---

The viewership of establishment media has dwindled significantly. They've lost their power as gatekeepers of information. Many people have turned to new media for news and information.

Have you heard of Adam Housley? He has a Twitter account. He's a rare example of an independent, non-partisan journalist who quit establishment media. He's in the wine business also, so a lot of tweets are about that.

posted November 15, 2020 02:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by teasel:
I�ve seen and participated in discussions like that on other sites. I wondered if we could get rid of both candidates, but that was never going to happen.

I wanted Warren, Harris, and was a Bernie supporter in 2016. We were spoiled for choice when it came to new candidates, and ended up with the usual choices. I have friends who didn�t like Biden much at all, who are now relieved and happy.

---

posted November 15, 2020 02:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dhyana:

The viewership of establishment media has dwindled significantly. They've lost their power as gatekeepers of information. Many people have turned to new media for news and information.

Have you heard of Adam Housley? He has a Twitter account. He's a rare example of an independent, non-partisan journalist who quit establishment media. He's in the wine business also, so a lot of tweets are about that.

---

posted November 15, 2020 02:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
It makes no sense!

---

I�m relieved, too, but the thing is, Biden will be criticized. He won�t be blindly worshipped. People are happy to be getting rid of a sociopath. They�re happy that he�s civil, that he and Harris act like human beings.

posted November 15, 2020 02:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by teasel:
I�m relieved, too, but the thing is, Biden will be criticized. He won�t be blindly worshipped. People are happy to be getting rid of a sociopath. They�re happy that he�s civil, that he and Harris act like human beings.

I was so disappointed early this year. When Warren dropped out of the race, I lost any enthusiasm I had for this election, and that was before everything else started. This year has been crazy-making, because everything is a conspiracy now. There hasn�t been much middle ground on which to meet.

---

posted November 15, 2020 02:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I can see why you lost enthusiasm Teasel. And without middle ground, someone always loses.

---

Both �sides� lose. One more than the other, but that�s why I didn�t bother to argue that often in the past: I don�t like it, and when people start to hurt each other, we all lose.

posted November 15, 2020 02:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by teasel:
Both �sides� lose. One more than the other, but that�s why I didn�t bother to argue that often in the past: I don�t like it, and when people start to hurt each other, we all lose.

---

posted November 15, 2020 03:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I'll hazard a guess.

When I was reading about the US election news, so much of the information was conflicting that I wondered just how the American people could decide who to elect.

So much mud-slinging and abhorrent allegations from both sides, that to me it would have made more sense to decline to vote at all.

To take just one example: both Biden and Trump have been accused of sexual assaults. How on earth can one choose between potential sex offenders?

Add to this (and all the other allegations such as tax fraud, colluding with enemies of the state, etc) a complicated political system, and you get a nightmare situation where, if I were an American citizen, I wouldn't have a clue who to vote for.

But, of course, this is from the outside looking in.

---

I know what you mean.

I do not agree with everything about the republican party and have expressed my reservations here. But I had to make a decision on who to vote for and certain things had more weight tilting me in a particular direction.

The thing is even if people were undecided, the polls were still wrong in showing that Biden had a 10-20 lead.

And I am afraid really finding out why the polls were so wrong would uncover a host of shady motives that the media is not willing to investigate. It is easier to demonize Trump's supporters as fringe uneducated hicks, then to admit that 1 out of 2 Americans supports Trump. You cannot demonize half the people of the country without sounding stupid.