posted May 17, 2021 12:57 AM            

You have no idea what I do for a living or how I spend my time, right? I'm not going to argue which of us is virtuous bc it takes knowing someone deep to know that. And it's not really a binary I subscribe to. Do you ever listen to the stones? This reminds me of that line: "Just as every cop is a criminal/And all the sinners saints." We're all good and bad. That being said, not getting vaccinated if it's available to you and wouldn't mess with your health, is an unequivocal dick move. (Fine I guess one more caveat: if you live like a hermit IDGAF. I'm talking about people who are regularly in contact with other people)

It is a responsible thing to do to be vaccinated because it prevents transmission. Yeah not everyone is infected, but if no one does anything, they could be. And it's not the only caring thing someone can do and it doesn't make me virtuous in and of itself. It's the bare minimum as far as citizenship is concerned IMO.

Age is a factor. So is health. Simple. Something we agree on.

Yeah I'm aware that confirmation bias is a thing. I could go look for a some articles that support never wearing masks. That doesn't change prevailing consensus. I want to compare it with US's take on the Israel/Palestine conflict, but I feel like the last thing this convo needs is another political grenade (pun somewhat intended).

The nyt article talks about variants. I think they said it prevents all American variants (pfizer and moderna. there's some hesitancy with J +J). Pls read for yourself tho bc I'm pretty stoned rn.

And I'll let Teasal speak for herself, but I just reread and I thought you were responding to the "shouldn't have children thing." So my mistake on that one. But what does her disagreeing with you and enjoying having an ally on this forum, have to do with being sensitive?

posted May 17, 2021 01:14 AM            

fair enough to the first bit

my second point wasn't a who's more virtuous competition i have my own flaws and issues, however your initial response to me implied that i personally was selfish and uncaring about people who were sick

so when you imply that someone who's actually taken their time to provide care at risk to themselves is selfish you're just straight up wrong

thing is i'm not the person to have that particular conversation with, feel free to have it with others if you'd like, but not me

the people i know who were breakthrough cases were not people who received the johnson and johnson shot and nowhere does it say the other 2 are 100% effective

in the time the vaccines were developed and today other mutations have occurred and are in fact in america (including ones that had been in other countries)

do you think people are ******** if they don't get a flu shot every year?

you won't find me supporting israel if that's where you're headed 🤷‍♀️

you brought up my age in the context of "you're not at risk" was just pointing out i am "at risk" and my age is irrelevant

her disagreeing with me and agreeing with you is fine, her taking what i said to you as something personal (which she seemed to) and about her was her being sensitive and reading into something too much

my issue is you took me telling her it wasn't personal or about her and twisted it into me being callous about someone else's comment that hurt her

posted May 17, 2021 01:37 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dumuzi:
@placidus_flamingo:

fair enough to the first bit

my second point wasn't a who's more virtuous competition i have my own flaws and issues, however your initial response to me implied that i personally was selfish and uncaring about people who were sick

so when you imply that someone who's actually taken their time to provide care at risk to themselves is selfish you're just straight up wrong

thing is i'm not the person to have that particular conversation with, feel free to have it with others if you'd like, but not me

the people i know who were breakthrough cases were not people who received the johnson and johnson shot and nowhere does it say the other 2 are 100% effective

in the time the vaccines were developed and today other mutations have occurred and are in fact in america (including ones that had been in other countries)

do you think people are ******** if they don't get a flu shot every year?

you won't find me supporting israel if that's where you're headed 🤷‍♀️

you brought up my age in the context of "you're not at risk" was just pointing out i am "at risk" and my age is irrelevant

her disagreeing with me and agreeing with you is fine, her taking what i said to you as something personal (which she seemed to) and about her was her being sensitive and reading into something too much

my issue is you took me telling her it wasn't personal or about her and twisted it into me being callous about someone else's comment that hurt her

again my only concern there is that she gets where i'm coming from and isn't hurt by it

---

No, again you misread me. I said it's a dick move. Human beings do caring things sometimes and ******* things other times. IT'S NOT BINARY. And why do you keep bringing up this care work? is this your job? want a gold star? For real though, it's a great, caring thing to do help other people, but that doesn't excuse you from getting the vaccine. I'm considered an essential worker too. And if you're continuing to work with people even though you haven't been vaccinated it's an AH thing to do. Asymptomatic spreading. Lots of healthcare workers are required to get the vaccine. And if you meant taking care of people while they had covid (I forget exactly what you said) why wouldn't you want to get the vaccine to make it safer for yourself?

As for the age, it's one of many factors. Younger is associated of less risk. Pre-exisiting conditions - more risk. Not really sure what else there is to say about this.

breakthrough cases are few and far between. It doesn't mean the vaccine is ineffective. And feel free to fact check me on this, but I don't think any vaccine is 100% (maybe chickenpox?). That doesn't mean they're worthless
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-vaccines-breakthrough-infections-variants

re: flu shot v covid vaccine. 1. Covid is much more deadly. 2. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/think-the-covid-19-vaccine-isnt-good-enough-it-may-be-more-effective-than-the-flu-shot#How-effective-the-shots-are-at-preventing-disease

Israel-- alright. two things we agree on.

posted May 17, 2021 07:12 AM            

i brought it up because you were going on to me initially about selfishness, if you can't understand the correlation between me telling you i'm not someone to ***** at selfishness towards people with covid to and me explaining why that's on you 🤷‍♀️ i don't need a gold star, only need you to acknowledge that you've projected a bunch of **** you have in your head about other people onto me unnecessarily from your very first post to me (something you haven't fully acknowledged)

>asymptomatic spreading
Requires someone to actually have the virus, you can't spread it without having it and when you care for people you're taking precautionary moves dealing with it

you say essential worker but that doesn't equate with physically being around confirmed positive cases, grocery store workers are essential workers so are people in fast food and they're not interacting on the same level with covid positive cases as someone who's actually around them

again don't bring it up because i personally think it's deserving of any praise i bring it up to point out that you can be around the virus and not get it and also because you made an accusation that was entirely false about me as a person and my lifestyle (if you didn't open with that nonsense we wouldn't be discussing this)

what you're talking about is potential when you say "asymptomatic spread" not a guarantee and it's beyond ignorant to conflate the two and declare yourself a moral authority because of it

i left that job, due to my unrelated health issues, again never had covid not asymptomatically (unless literally everyone in my family also was 100% asymptomatic along with my coworkers who i interacted with etc)

i'm not really sure why you people talk as if everyone on the planet is actually infected and going to get you sick, and first it was "unless they wear a mask and take precautionary measures" and now it's "unless they have a vaccine" make up your minds about whether or not these things work, and if you don't believe they do then what's the point in pushing them? you're the same exact sort of person who before the vaccine would (and you still are) have meltdowns over masks as if not wearing one everywhere meant you're going to be sick and die

it's just that now the goalpost has moved for people like you due to the vaccine, now that's the new "if you don't have this then you have the virus and you're going to die and kill everyone else too" ********

i did it for months without getting sick or getting anyone around me sick and that's without even having the option of a vaccine (was it a "dick move" to have been there unvaccinated in the past even though many people were leaving their jobs to avoid exposure altogether then? according to you all i did was spread it to everyone asymptomatically), so my point is it's very avoidable, and it's very unnecessary to fear monger people into putting something in their bodies that they don't want or need

yeah age is a factor, but having pre-existing conditions is an equalizer and your initial point in bringing up my age was that you were assuming i wasn't in an "at risk" group because that fit your narrative of "selfish trump voting conservative who doesn't care about people" so basically all i'm saying here is admit you were wrong there about me specifically and stop defaulting to generalizations when your assumptions are corrected

you start off by saying "you" then change it to "people" the second you're wrong, and it's such a BS way to have a discussion, either don't go for trying to make **** personal or move on when you turn out to be wrong

i don't give a **** about generalizations if i'm being personally addressed, and if you're making generalizations right off the bat you wouldn't say "you" and make it personal

pick one instead of jumping around grasping because you need to be right somehow

above 95% recovery rate (actual numbers fall somewhere between 97% and 99% and you can find this even on google which is notorious for pushing specific narratives with its searches) is amazing odds for such a "deadly" illness

you talk as if everyone is infected and going to drop dead from it after taking out a large chunk of the population themselves and yet that's not what's really happening

perhaps if you didn't have absolutely hysterical fear based talking points more people would agree with you or see where you're coming from

when your starting point is an extreme coupled with personal accusations and insults to random people's character and values no one is going to take you seriously

when you provide one sided evidence but other people can cite opposite things it's simply bias is it not?

as for israel yeah we agree on something completely unrelated, unnecessary to this conversation that was yet another example of you prejudging my personal views

posted May 17, 2021 11:57 AM            

And the age thing is not wrong. You have gave me more information. Which is again, another data point.

I’d take a deep breath and reread what you’re written and think about which one of us sounds hysterical. And you don’t think that kind of wording is making characterizations…

You’ve never spoken with someone who speaks in generalities and specifics? Really weird argument. I don’t know you. But yeah there’s certain things where if anyone does them, including you, they’d be an ah. Refusing to get vaccinated without a good
Reason is one of them.

posted May 17, 2021 12:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:
I'm so sorry she said that to you. And to double down or imply it's your fault bc you're sensitive. I just can't. The level of discourse here is... not good.

I think it's kind of telling though that no one but you and I are actually linking to where we got our info from. Beliefs trumping science is how we got to that creationism remark, Belage. You do sound like you'd advocate for it.

---

I have yet to see any meaningful link backing up any of the assertions you have made in this thread.

I have pointed out to you a link about how Florida and California have roughly the same covid stats. Your answer was that Florida's numbers were fake. Wow, how impressive the breath and depth of your scientific rebuke!

I can repost for you a recent study which shows there was hardly any difference between the counties that had mask mandates and those that hadn't:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7010e3-H.pdf

Honestly, I expect another impressive "scientific" rebuke from you, but go ahead, prove me wrong.

posted May 17, 2021 12:19 PM            

wasn't asking you to stroke my ego, where did you get that from? i simply pointed out that your initial statement of "you're selfish" and implying i was high risk to other people, getting them sick etc was inaccurate

the age thing was irrelevant to my situation, you brought it up because your initial point was "you're unconcerned because you're not at risk" when that point you made was proved false you defaulted to repeating "well age is a factor" repeatedly as if anyone ever said "it's never a factor" (though it is not a death sentence for the elderly or the sick, you know that right? people with underlying conditions and the elderly do still recover)

please point out something i've said that sounds hysterical or fear based, because my examples of you saying those things come from you outright saying that anyone not wearing a mask is spreading the disease and operating on the assumption that everyone is asymptomatic (even people with covid are not contagious the entire time they're sick)

you speak in assumptions about me as a person and then generalities when those assumptions are proven false, not nitpicking but the difference is huge and not just "generalities and specifics" you say "you are" and then "well you know people in general" or "other people on this board..." to take away from the ad hominem **** you spout and are corrected on

i have no reason to get a vaccine, i don't go anywhere, it would literally just be putting something in my body with no idea of potential longterm effects (or immediate because people have had negative reactions to the vaccine) simply because i'm being told i should 🤷‍♀️

if i'm an ******* for waiting to see how things turn out while i live separate from the world in general even though i can't get anyone sick then honestly i think your priorities and views are just straight up twisted here

if you're vaccinated there's no reason to continue to cover your face at all (though masks do not prevent you from getting it) which was the entire point of this thread

posted May 17, 2021 12:31 PM            

Belage-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/florida-covid-numbers-face-new-scrutiny-090058319.html

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-california-and-florida-have-similar-covid-19-case-rates-the-answer-is-complicated

posted May 17, 2021 12:31 PM            

i said you speak as if you believe you're a moral authority, i personally don't consider you one

it's a very low rate of death in comparison to the amount of people who catch the disease, generally speaking the odds are in a person's favor

sometimes people need second opinions even when they go to doctors

posted May 17, 2021 12:34 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:
Labor solidarity

---

is not a real reason

i don't care if someone feels comfortable wearing a mask, but i equally don't care if someone wants to take zero precautions with their own life, health, and basic hygiene etc

the same way i don't care about bug chasers crawling around sucking on used condoms at events hoping they get aids

posted May 17, 2021 12:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:

Belage-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/florida-covid-numbers-face-new-scrutiny-090058319.html

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-california-and-florida-have-similar-covid-19-case-rates-the-answer-is-complicated

---

The first linked article has a link to the study the article is using to claim Florida's numbers are fake, but I would have to pay $24 to $38 to access that study. Um, nope! If the information is so good, they should make it available to EVERYONE! However, I suppose since YOU are scientifically minded, you were willing to pay to get access to that study to verify what it says, and we would appreciate if you would copy and paste its contents here. Thank you for sharing the knowledge!

The second linked article basically is saying, it's "complicated" and that they really don't know why the covid stats are basically the same. So as they are struggling to maintain the narrative, they started talking about North Dakota and South Dakota, Hawaii, New Zealand, Cnina and Vietnam to reinstate the official narrative.

posted May 17, 2021 01:04 PM            

When they realize they actually have to think logically instead of just spewing their emotional opinions, they hightail out of here with personal attack comments about the place and go back to their own echo-chambers, you know, the one that is protected by the censorship of Facebook and Twitter. How ironic.

posted May 17, 2021 01:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:
You haven’t backed up a single thing you’re saying so why would I bother to keep reading what are clearly your opinions. I’m talking off bc no one is listening to anyone else.

@dum
Wtf are you talking about? What does that have to do with anything? The fact that to you it’s a matter of personal liberty says… a lot. What does willfully trying to get infected with aids or hygiene have to do with this? We’re talking about the air people breathe in.

---

you can equate covid to palestine/israel in your head but you can't understand why someone would equate not taking personal accountability to avoid getting sick in this situation to someone choosing to infect themselves with a deadly illness in another?

my point was in either case if someone doesn't care for their own safety it's on them

the air i breathe outdoors is perfectly safe for everyone and has been since this started, if i fear getting sick i can avoid going to places that put me at risk and be hygienic etc i can take it upon myself to decrease my risk and so can everyone else

if someone is at risk they should be careful if they choose to not be it isn't going to be a healthy person with no illness breathing near them who gets them sick

posted May 17, 2021 01:37 PM            

you can equate covid to palestine/israel in your head
pretty easily. It has to do with a vocal, powerful minority, willfully dismissing what is consensus agreement.

btw your idea of listening to you seems to mean "agree with everything i say"

posted May 17, 2021 01:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:
You haven’t backed up a single thing you’re saying so why would I bother to keep reading what are clearly your opinions. I’m talking off bc no one is listening to anyone else.

---

If you are talking to me and you claim I have not backed up a single thing I have said, even though I posted links to studies, then obviously, there is no more conversation to be had.

posted May 17, 2021 01:47 PM            

According to their conspiracy, Florida is drowning in Covid but is faking the numbers.

Are we supposed to believe Florida hospitals are overwhelmed and overflowing with covid patients and dead people, but these numbers are not reported because the hospitals are not listing them as Covid and the hospitals are turning down the opportunity to make that extra $20,000.00 the government pays for Covid cases. All to protect DeSantis' arse.

Yeahhh, right.

posted May 17, 2021 01:57 PM            

your first point is why i've mentioned my other privilege of being coughed on by people with covid in the past, hard to have access to clean air in a situation like that and yet i'm perfectly fine so personal responsibility still came into play no?

what i said had to do with personal accountability

i don't see anyone here saying "covid doesn't exist" or "no one has ever died from it" etc only pointing out the high recovery rates (which you could easily find yourself), and the conflicting "evidence" surrounding it and preventing the spread

it isn't a fact that not having a mask on in any given space means you'll walk away with covid and it's also not a fact that uninfected people wearing masks does anything (because from the beginning the idea of a mask is if i am sick it will help others if i wear a mask and quarantine myself, if you are not sick you are not helping other people by wearing a mask because you are not slowing the spread of a disease you do not have) yet you say these things

it's not a fact that someone not jumping to take a vaccine is "an ******* " when before that was an option "masks are effective"

since you're going on about "labor solidarity" if everyone is wearing a mask for that purpose then the vaccine is pointless no? if masks are effective and everyone is still wearing them then there's no need to vaccinate

posted May 17, 2021 02:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belage:
I gotta laugh at the idea that Florida's numbers are fake. And they call us conspiracy theorists!

According to their conspiracy, Florida is drowning in Covid but is faking the numbers.

Are we supposed to believe Florida hospitals are overwhelmed and overflowing with covid patients and dead people, but these numbers are not reported because the hospitals are not listing them as Covid and the hospitals are turning down the opportunity to make that extra $20,000.00 the government pays for Covid cases. All to protect DeSantis' arse.

Yeahhh, right.

---

posted May 17, 2021 02:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dumuzi:
everything is fake except whichever narrative supports my opinions 😉 if you disagree it's probably just racism

---

Racism or quasi-racism. Like quasi-pregnant. LOL

The irony is that we are trying to tell those people that it's okay for them to breathe, to relax, to live life in a fuller way. That the science says if you're vaccinated, you can do those things. But they don't want any of it. They prefer to breath oxygen mixed with carbon dioxide. They prefer to stay on lockdown. They prefer to live lives that are constricted.

Why do we even bother? It's like trying to wake up the willfully sleeping.

posted May 17, 2021 02:49 PM            

see someone with a donut and a mask and you know you've come across a "good fellow leftist"