posted November 27, 2013 07:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Swift Freeze:
Women are just as capable of being the 'ones in power' or having the same power and responsibility as men.
... There is no reason that throughout the ages, Women should never have been castigated and relegated as second class to men, ever, for any reason.

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Absolutely! Not only are women just as capable, they have higher IQ's than men in a study published last year (men have larger sized brains). I'm surprised it didn't create even a ripple here on LL. I thought someone would start a thread on it letting everyone know.

posted November 27, 2013 07:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Linda Jones,

I'm sorry that the Good Word is repeatedly perverted. People fundamentally fall short of any standard of righteousness and do not measure up to the standards set forth in the Bible. I apologize for that.

I am pretty much a life long Christian, and it was a conscious choice on my part independent of my parents, who were Christians long after I became one. My boys were born and raised Christians. We are firm advocates against all forms of rape. Men are wretched. God is good. Any "Christian" who claims to be so damn righteous and knows God's Will ought to take a long walk off a short pier. Perhaps, since the guy is so righteous, he can also walk on water.

Where I grew up, the laws were very strict. For example, a couple guys coped a fondle on a woman's behind in a bar and were sentenced to years of prison and canning. That's just the outrage of a woman's modesty, never mind rape, which entails decades of imprisonment. In my view, it's rough trying to fundamentally change serial rapists and that's what it entails.

If the government were to impose a $1,000 fine for every mile an hour I exceed the speed limit, you can be sure I would drive 50 mph on a 55 mph highway. Instead, everyone this morning drove 70+ mph on a 55 mph highway and I got honked for going too slowly in the slow lane at 65 mph on a 55 mph highway. $200 tickets for speeding are a joke, just like probation and "good behavior" early release for rape.

Therefore, if only people cared more about the rights of victims rather than the rights of criminals, I think society would be safer.

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"I'm sorry that the Good Word is repeatedly perverted. People fundamentally fall short of any standard of righteousness and do not measure up to the standards set forth in the Bible. I apologize for that."

I know you're being gracious but you don't owe me an apology. Tell you what. I'll take your apology, combine it with mine, and extend both to Gaia or Mother Earth, because we dump so much on her and She bears it all and continues to create (from the refuse we heap on Her), as well as nourish the planet.

Thank you for your support against rape and violence toward women. Thank you also for being so delightfully impeccable on this thread in trying to reason with Aquaguy. Society needs more men to stand up and talk to other men.

posted November 27, 2013 07:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Ręve:
Thanks for remembering me, Linda.
It's nice to see you post again (although this topic is really, really sensitive for me - that's why I don't comment on it much).

I'm not doing well, no. For the most part precisely because of what we're discussing here, but there are many other things. I'm about to get help though so hopefully I'll get better.

You should post more! <3
Hope all is well with you.

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Yes I'm fine thx, Doux, but I'm sorry to hear that you're going through a lot atm. Yes believe in yourself and you WILL get better. In posting this thread I knew that it would bring up memories for victims. This is why I debated for a long time before posting. In the end I thought it may do more good than harm if people can become more aware. So I went ahead and did it.

Oh and about remembering ... I not only remember our infrequent convos whenever we met up on a thread, but among the people I thought of when I was "away" from LL, you were one of them

posted November 27, 2013 07:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Rape has been widely underreported in America, according to a new panel study by the National Research Council.

After comparing several official methods for counting rape and sexual assault, the panel discovered major inconsistencies in national data.

The focal point of the study was the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) -- an annual crime report conducted through household surveys by the U.S. Census Bureau for the Bureau of Justice Statistics -- which counted 188,380 victims of rape and sexual assault in 2010. Another data source, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, counted nearly 1.3 million incidents that same year. Data from the FBI, which gathers its statistics on rape or attempted rape reported as a crime by local law enforcement, counted only 85,593 in 2010.

Either someone's not counting properly, or there's a problem with the methods of collecting and analyzing data about rapes.

The study, published Tuesday, was prompted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, which asked the National Research Council to investigate concerns that the number of rape and sexual assault victims are being miscalculated and to recommend best practices for measuring rape in household surveys conducted by the NCVS.

“We all know that rape and sexual assault are the most underreported crimes in the world, and it’s very hard to say that the problem is declining," Christopher Krebs, a sexual violence researcher at nonprofit research institute RTI International, told Slate this week. "The NCVS data could be missing a lot.”

In its report, the National Research Council panel recommended several methods to curb the inaccuracies in the NCVS.

For one, the NCVS does not stress privacy while conducting in-house interviews to gather its statistics on rape. This could prove problematic in instances where a family member is the abuser. Approximately two-thirds of rapes occur by someone known to the victim, according to NCVS data from 2005. If the abuser were within earshot of the interviewee, the victim might be reluctant to speak up, the panel's recent report said.

“Don’t get me wrong the [NCVS] is fabulous," Candace Kruttschnitt, a co-chair of the panel and a University of Toronto sociology professor, told The Huffington Post over the phone. "The victimization survey is critical in establishing the extent of underreported crime in the country, but for the purpose of measuring rape, the design is inefficient."

The panel’s report offers alternative methods to fix the NCVS' privacy issue.

“You could use a computer-assisted method that increases privacy. The big issue with NCVS is making sure that everyone in the house doesn’t get the same set of questions,” Kruttschnitt said. “Let’s say, your father abused you and he gets the same questions.”

However, interview technique is not the only obstacle crippling data accuracy.

A major conflict between different surveys is the lack of a uniform definition of rape -- specifically one that truly reflects the nature of sexual assault for all genders.

The CDC's definition of rape “represents the public health perspective” and takes into account the ability of the victim to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs.

But the NCVS' definition omits consideration for drugs or alcohol:

Rape includes psychological coercion as well as physical force. Forced sexual intercourse means vaginal, anal, oral penetration by the offender(s). It also includes incidents in which the penetration is by a foreign object. It includes attempted rapes, male as well as female victims, and both heterosexual and homosexual rape.

It wasn't until December 2011 that the FBI changed its 80-year-old definition of rape from the "carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will" to “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

The National Research Council panel's report offers an array of plans to solve the issue of defining rape. One plan suggested reframing the way rape is discussed in the household survey, which currently treats it as a crime and which might deter some victims from speaking up.

"To more accurately measure when and how these victimizations occur, we recommend a separate survey that is focused on these specific crimes within a public health context and targets those most at risk for sexual violence,” William Kalsbeek, a co-chair of the panel and a professor of biostatistics at the University of North Carolina, said in a statement released by the National Research Council.

Kruttschnitt is confident the panel's results will have an impact.

“I think it should have a big affect on policy generally. If we know that certain woman are at high risk we can target more officers to intervene in those particular areas. There is no question that this is a high priority," she said.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/21/rape-study-report-america-us_n_4310765.html

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Randall, thank you for posting this article. Very helpful in understanding how complicated the collection of rape statistics can be.

posted November 27, 2013 07:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Taineberry:
I live in South Africa which has been called the rape capital of the world. Rape is so commonplace that it mostly does not even get a mention in the newspapers unless it was accompanied by unusual violence. A quote from one of our universities states that :“Rape is one of the most under-reported crimes in South Africa,” noted the NGO coalition Shukumisa. It points to research, conducted in Gauteng in 2010, that found one-quarter of women questioned in the study “had
been raped in the course of their lifetimes, while almost one in 12 women had been raped in 2009. But only one in 13 women raped by a non-partner reported the matter to the police, while only one in 25 of the women raped by their partners reported this to the police.” Rape statistics are therefore badly skewed because “women are remaining silent about the sexual violence they experience”. 

This is no exaggeration. if you live here and are a woman and you have not been raped, you will almost certainly personally know someone close to you who has been (same goes for car hijacking). Two of my friends have been raped in the last five years. One was chopping firewood in her garden, when a stranger grabbed her axe and threatened her into submission before raping her. The other was walking to her car with her daughter when a stranger caught her and stabbed her in her side, before ripping off her jeans and cutting her like an episiotomy, then raping her while her daughter watched. Fortuately none of them died.

It is sad that women here end up not being able to walk around alone - a walk along a deserted beach is unthinkable, even driving alone esp at night is scary.

Taking public transport is a huge risk, and I am always worrying about my female staff members who may have to walk on the street in the evening. At work we do focus on the problem by offering courses on sexual harassment, and we include violence against women campaigns as part of our social awareness programs, but it its clear we still have a long way to go.

Somehow there needs to be a paradigm shift.. Men here need to stop equating their masculinity with sexual power over women. It starts in the home... If sons see their fathers respecting their mothers as equal human beings, they are more likely to also respect their mothers and grow up treating women well.

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posted November 27, 2013 07:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
As for rape prevention, You can run all the anti-rape campaigns in the world and it will still happen. Why? because at the end of the day crazy people are going to be crazy,its that simple. Telling people that rape is bad will be about as effective as telling people that murder and assault are bad. We all know that those things have always happened and will continue to happen. You just can't predict when somebody is going to snap and do something crazy. So should we live our lives being paranoid? No.. People should live their lives but always be cautious and use common sense.

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Rape is a crime of violence, hate, and opportunity. Rapists are not crazy and do not just snap and commit rape. They are ordinary people of all ages and from all walks of life like college students, high school football players, teachers, priests, you name it. They function normally in society in their day to day lives ... some of them being excellent achievers.

Aggression is a function of testosterone which is present in all men to a greater degree and all women to a lesser degree. It's impact on others in society depends on whether people have learned to control their impulse to hurt someone, and whether they were taught how to empathize with others as children (something that is learned from our primary caregivers since it is not inherent in us).

Anger and aggression are natural impulses that exist in both genders. But generally women do not rape. Men do because of their superior physical strength.

posted November 27, 2013 07:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Taineberry:
You need to wrap your head around what it is like to be in a woman's shoes. The truth is that the victim is often blamed. Other posts have alluded to this as well. After rape the person is dealing with a lot of trauma, as the invasion she has experienced is not just physical - it is emotional, mental and spiritual too. Along with this, the victim often experiences shame and does not want others to know that she has been "soiled" in this way, she feels that decent men will not want her after what happened (these are age-old society judgements), she does not want people talking about something that happened to her that was so private and visualising in their heads what happened. She does not want to be the object of pity. And most of all she does not want people saying she was "stupid" for being in that place at that time, that she did something wrong in order to trigger the incident and therefore was partly to blame. She does not want her private trauma debated in graphic detail in court, or her name splashed over the newspapers. She does not want to sit in a police station and get questioned and examined by strangers, to establish if she is lying. Sometimes she is protecting the perpetrator for complex reasons - for example : to protect the honour of her family name, to keep peace in the family. Soemtimes they are scared people won't believe them, and sometimes the police scare them.

That is why many women do not report rape. It is a big thing to do so, and often the story is twisted against them.

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This is an excellent summary of why women hesitate to report rape. Thanks Tberry!

posted November 27, 2013 08:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
I've not read everything in this thread. It gets exhausting.
I read this though and spot on!

It's extremely easy for us to sit here and say, "Why are they not reporting them?" This explains it all.
I have no doubt in my mind that a woman who is a victim of rape would love nothing else but to have justice brought to the person. Maybe even overkill, castration in some cases. (The desires of their mind). Certainly the emotions are just going crazy. Yet, the humiliation so great that they don't report it.
Well, I don't want to get too involved in this, even though it's a big topic for me. I just think, woman or man, if you haven't experienced it, there's no room for your opinions on what you would do or downsize the courage it takes for them to report.
It's a world beyond our comprehension that only the victims themselves could try to explain.

I don't even like to go to the doctor to get my junk looked at! (prostate inflammation a couple years back) It took a LOOOOOONG time for me to make that choice to go. LOL

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Thanks DeepFreeze! For your support. I particularly like this--

posted November 27, 2013 08:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
The problem with this is that it paints a black and white picture of the sexes. It's simply not that way.
Is it correct? Could a man make similar complaints? Sure.
In most cases, he also has the physical power to overpower the "aggressor", unlike many women in these situations.

As much as we want and get equality of rights, the sexes will never be equal in the most basic sense, in the physical, biological sense. The simple fact is, men in general are capable and more likely to be a true aggressor. It's just the way it works. I'm fumbling for words to explain what I really mean.
That blog to me seems like it's just shifting responsibility, like, "stop whining". I'm surprised it doesn't say, "Well don't get raped then."

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The MOST important fact that seems to escape Aquaguy is that men are physically stronger than women ... the single contributor to men being able to commit the act of rape. That, in and of itself, contributes to the fear women feel, because yes this is why men are likely to be the true aggressors.

Good to note you didn't really care for that blog. I read the first para and didn't need to go any further to know it's been written by someone whose heart has never opened up in love to a woman. Because men who truly love (and there are plenty of them, including my own Dad), do not write like that.

posted November 27, 2013 08:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FireMoon:
Wow this is amazing. Totally brilliant.

If you want to compare rape to other types of criminal trials and say it has nothing to do with society… ok cool but just curious would a straight man bringing another straight man to trial over (non-sexual) assault ever be accused of just having “a simple misunderstanding”, or being “too timid to assert his own agency”? Are there blogs written about it?? No, I didn’t think so.

I don’t talk about this (especially irl) but I legitimately trusted someone who this happened with… Yes, we were BOTH drunk, yes we were arguing… Was I dressed like a wh*** at 2 in the morning in some shady neighborhood? No. He threw something at me causing my mouth to start bleeding, while I was trying to get my bearings he pushed my head into the wall (making a hole and pushing me to the ground), he punched me in the side of the head several times, he started choking me and as I was trying to fight back said repeatedly “do you think this is a strength contest?”. He took my clothes off and yes it was “real” rape. He’s 6’2, I’m 5’4.

You want to know why women “complain” but don’t do anything about it? It’s exactly these types of opinions/posting that prevent people from talking about this kind of thing let alone reporting it… Also keep in mind there's a limited amount of time to report rape before physical evidence is irrelevant. And if the victim already knows this person...it could actually make things more dangerous in some situations

Anyway I wish you the best aquaguy…. I’ve been through some sh**** experiences but I still don’t hate all men for it… I can only hope you reach a better place with yourself and your opinions of women

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"Anyway I wish you the best aquaguy…. I’ve been through some sh**** experiences but I still don’t hate all men for it… I can only hope you reach a better place with yourself and your opinions of women"

Thanks for a wonderful post, FireMoon.

posted November 27, 2013 08:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Who says I hate l women?

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No you don’t hate women. But you wish we would all take a dip in a shark tank when we get our period.

posted November 27, 2013 08:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:
We have shared similar stories???
Women on this thread so far have shared stories of rape or near rape and harassments that could lead to rape. Your words have just slapped themselves in the faces. You are comparing. If you want to compare and measure, try reading about 1st, 2sc and 3rd degree sexual assault, and sexual molestation.

The problem with privilege is that it is hard to see when you have it. In this case, you don't have that fear of getting raped when you walk home late at night, you don't understand what it's like to be **** -slammed, you don't know what it's like to be pinned down by a smelly beast that used to be your friend/family members, or that "nice" guy you have just turned down...

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We're from other parts of the world too, not just in your area. We're talking about this issue in other parts of the world too. Try to keep that in mind.

Women in my country for example, we are taught to listen to men (fathers, uncles, husbands, male bosses, etc...), to not anger them (include random men) - "men don't like women who talk back", to please them and turn them down sweetly, even if they're being a creep. In cases where they go too far - no it's our faults that we provoke them.

Famous saying : "Flowers are here to be plucked, women are here for the delight of men" - meaning that it's normal for a flower to be cut, it's normal for a woman to be teased and be seen as a source of sexual pleasure.

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Now, in the western world, the way it is soaked with sex have bad effects on both genders. But talking about rape, women are more at risk - coz we're generally smaller, weaker?

Are the average males going to empathise with us? Can they put themselves in our shoes? Or are they going to push the problem onto us for not reporting due to shame and trauma? Are they going to blame us for dressing like a ***** ?" Glad to say that many supported us, but sad to say that many don't.

Not to leave women out. I've seen many who **** -slammed and call other women all sorts of degrading terms, who shame rape victims.

Rape culture/violence against women isn't just limited to when rape happens, it shows its nasty head whenever women are viewed in an undignified way. Too often, too many people view "manhood" as wrapped around sexual conquests.

Rape and violence are only some of the most extreme manifestations. Think of the way the image of women are viewed, portrayed and used. Mainstream culture: think about rappers like Eminem who writes songs about his rape fantasies, abusing and murdering his ex-wife. I've seen and heard teenage boys and men joking about rape, hurling disgusting sexual comments at girls and women, telling them to go make a sandwich. And some women are fine with it or even join in. It has wormed its way into too many people's mindset.

----------

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excellent post 12muddy! Thanks!

posted November 27, 2013 08:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Regarding the blog, this is the part of the article I have the largest problem with:

The victim doesn't actually intend to be the victim. The victim who is defenseless cannot be blamed for having being victimized.

You carry a stick, I carry a machine gun and take your wallet, and so I blame you for putting up token resistance. That is where it is truly ridiculous.

The rest are just the views of one male who doesn't speak for the gender. Like posteriors, many views stink and there aren't a shortage of such views.

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posted November 27, 2013 08:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
The sad thing is the other men are whipped and agree with everything the women say.

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WORD EDITED BY RANDALL.

You need to get a grip! Stop referring to women by their sexual body parts. I’m surprised you haven’t been corrected. This is EXACTLY the dehumanizing, objectifying, and sexual humiliating that a lot of men do, and it contributes to the double standards and the rape culture.

Look at how conveniently you reduced women to a body part to make your point … without batting an eyelid. Don’t you have enough of an education to have built an adequate vocabulary without having to resort to such crassness? No woman on this thread has referred to you by a sexual body part. And YOU are the loudest complainer about how you don’t get fair treatment. FYI, if you want to be respected, you need to FIRST give respect to others, especially women (since they seem to be your biggest problem). That’s the nature of the way the Universe works. It is an echo of who you are. Your constant dissatisfaction with women should make you want to look at yourself because YOU are the common denominator … instead of getting on here and defending some bozo’s blog who, like you, has clearly never opened up his heart selflessly in love and compassion to a woman.

You owe the women of this forum an apology for demeaning and disrespecting them … a genuine, gracious apology … not a fake one that says you’re sorry if you’ve offended anyone.

NOTE TO MODS: Please make sure Aquaguy issues a genuine apology, because I know this language is unacceptable on LL.

NOTE TO WOMEN: By letting Aquaguy's demeaning language pass unchecked, we ourselves are contributing to "boys will be boys". Each time such language is used we need to assert ourselves and say "no, you don't get to speak to me like that."

posted November 27, 2013 08:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
And I hate when men call other men "******* " with great contempt (and thus contempt for women), especially if they call him that for being a decent human being. I don't give women who speak like that a free pass either, that's actually worse.

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That is exactly my point! Aquaguy needs to apologize! It's disgusting to hear him refer to women by their body parts and in the same breath complain that he isn't being respected or understood when he's being oh so logical. Ugh!

posted November 27, 2013 08:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
That's why this stuff about misogyny and rape culture leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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That’s because you have latent hostility toward women, or hadn’t you realized that by now? When people try and reason with you, you pull the et tu Brutus line and pout. For you it’s us (men) versus them (women). So you yourself have created a rift in your mind between women and you.

You entered the thread by expressing complete suspicion of the statistics. You just couldn’t believe that rape was underreported … thus marginalizing an issue, which is of UTMOST importance and UTMOST sensitivity to women. Then when iQ posted world stats and listed other countries and Randall posted an article saying why rape was underreported, you were critical of why women don’t report. When Taineberry made an excellent post explaining the difficulties women face in reporting, in typical left brain (rational) fashion you dealt with it by saying that’s just how our justice system is (without giving one IOTA of consideration to the justice systems in other countries where women are subjected to much worse scenarios while reporting, eg, a Muslim woman has to produce TWO witnesses to the crime). Then you were critical of the double standards saying they were unfair to men (even though you cussed by reducing women to a sexual body part). [And to make your point you try and paint a picture of how women are constantly supported by men which is SUCH a skewed picture, because if it were true there wouldn’t be as many rape cases as there are, something that doesn’t seem to bother you one bit … the underreporting]. Then you give your story about being fondled at a party expressing shock because you were embarrassed and humiliated, even though you being 6’4” could have easily pushed her away when she first sat on your lap, and walked away. Yet you didn’t. (My guess is that being a man you didn’t want to be seen as turning down a sexual advance from a woman … in which case aren’t you yourself participating in the same double standard that you’re so critical about?) FYI women put up with that kind of humiliation regularly (especially in other countries), and are generally grateful for this humiliation being the lesser evil when compared to rape. I cannot remember the number of times I’ve been humiliated by men because I won’t “put out” … by being told that I’m a “lesbo”, I have issues with sex, I’m frigid, I need therapy to get myself fixed of my issues, etc. I’m usually relieved when it has stopped there and not progressed to something far worse like stalking (tho I’ve been phone stalked), or rape. This humiliation that you’re so shocked about when it happened to you … well for a woman its par for the course. That is why your experience seems like nothing in comparison.

Here’s an analogy of how you come across—you’re watching a neighbor’s house go up in flames. You’re standing across the street watching … and you begin complaining about how the heat from the fire is irritating your skin! There’s a house burning down right in front of your eyes and you’re complaining about how it’s affecting you. When you live in a microcosm world, everything is about you. When you move to a larger macrocosm you realize that there are actually 7 billion other beings on this planet, the majority of who don’t have a fraction of the material benefits that you have living in America.

You lack empathy for women, get it? [And you have zero intuition, except when it concerns your survival]. It’s very easy to say how sorry you are in response to a member posting her story of rape. (If I saw my enemy lying dying on the street with stab wounds, ya I could also feel sorry). But that does not indicate empathy or compassion because overall, you are unable to relate to women. Period.

Your ability to step outside of whatever is swirling inside your own head and try to see things from another’s perspective is pretty blocked, preventing you from having insight into a situation. I don’t think this is restricted to your feelings toward women only, because a year ago I remember you’d started a thread in which you expressed frustration because a mentally challenged person would stop you everyday to chit chat with you.

You come from a place of criticism and suspicion, instead of empathy and compassion. In order to relate to women, you have to first get in touch with your own feminine energy and then imagine yourself in their shoes. Then your heart must open up in compassion to feel what they are feeling. Compassion means to suffer with another … as though you were going through the same circumstance. You’re so focused on your masculinity that your inner energies are out of whack. And that’s where they will remain until there’s a shift in your perception.

This is what your contemplation of death is trying to convey. When we have thoughts like you described in the other thread … about contemplating death … well such thoughts should not be ignored because your inner being is trying to tell you something. In this case your consciousness is trying to tell you to transcend (or kill) your lower energies that keep you concerned with issues of the material (ego) world and allow the birth of compassion within you so that you can become a nobler human being.

About a year ago when I pretty much dropped out of LL forums (except for a couple of threads) due to time constraints, you were in the same position in terms of your problems of relating to women. And a year later, you’re in exactly the same place … reminding me of a hamster on the wheel of time that keeps moving but gets nowhere. It is up to you to make a decision to take the necessary steps to increase your awareness. Otherwise I’ll come back after the next 5 years and find you in the same spot! Is that what you want for yourself?

P.S. Make sure you issue the apology otherwise I'll request that you be stripped of your Mod responsibility.

.

posted November 28, 2013 04:34 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Linda Jones:
Eve is the seducer, temptress, and sinner is well known. The image of Eve covered only by strategically placed fig leaves, standing in front of the tree of knowledge, and offering the apple to Adam has got to be one of the most enduring images of time. And it has doubtless contributed in a huge way to the way men view women … consciously and subconsciously … and women view (blame) other women. But this again is another example of literal understanding, and therefore misunderstanding

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I consider myself lucky for not having Christianity shoved down my throat as a child, though given how even school teachers hated the questions I'd think to ask I'm sure the Sunday School teachers would be even more glad I was never in their class. The end result was I never learned of the story of Eve while growing up (I knew what happened but I didn't really care and didn't believe it anymore than I believed the story of Pandora's Box) so it was feminist pagans who first brought that story into focus for me, and I came to see Eve as a figure more like Prometheus, that is worthy of admiration. I still get confused when I hear of how bad Eve was though I'm aware that had I been raised very religious in the East Texas Bible Belt (aka "behind the pine curtain") I probably would've found the version of Eve as the heroic bringer of knowledge as being strange instead of the other way around.

Btw, while I'm generally not on the anti-porn wagon (lots of it is toxic, perhaps even most of it is, but I don't see it as HAVING to be) I did enjoy this anti-porn feminist book (which included the idea that porn and a lot of misogyny was based on intermixing of carnal desires & mortal dread which is complicated to explain, but she does so brilliantly, IMO!) that your comments on Eve reminded me of so I thought I'd recommend it:

Pornography & Silence

And the one review also explains why I think you'd enjoy it:

quote:

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Griffin is a master with words. Less prose-like than her well known classic Woman and Nature, Pornography and Silence is another attempt to unearth the pathological mind that divides men and women, culture and nature. I would not recommend this book for those first exploring the issue of (anti-)pornography (look instead for Gail Dines's "Pornland" or Robert Jensen's "Getting Off"). Those well read in or familiar with the last two centuries of Western literature and art, though, will find this book stimulating. Griffin uses the six lives of Franz Marc, Kate Chopin, the Marquis de Sade, Marilyn Monroe, Lawrence Singleton, and Anne Frank to navigate through two hundred years of silence and violence in Western culture. Also interesting is her challenge to the typical claim that pornographers are leaders in the liberation of the body and sexuality from Victorian-like repression. She makes a strong argument that, while apparently antithetical, the total demolition of borders found in pornography and the suppression of human sexuality found inherited from the religious tradition of the West share an invisible alliance.

"These pages will argue that pornography is an expression not of human erotic feeling and desire, and not of a love of the life of the body, but of a fear of bodily knowledge, and a desire to silence eros." (p. 1)

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posted November 28, 2013 04:39 AM            

Though many men do something similar, too, like if they're adulterers or even child molesters they'll be major gay bashers (I hear that's considered ordinary for places like Jamaica and torturing gays to death in the name of Jesus while screwing everyone of the opposite gender regardless of things like age and marital status) so maybe it's more about trying to feel better about themselves by finding someone they think they're "better" than...though arguably it could still be misogynistic as the hostility is more against women & gay men (seen incorrectly as "feminine") and with sermons in popular Christian reform schools for girls about how if a man whistles at her then the girl did something wrong, that the men harassing her are the real victims (btw, if you want to read the example of one of the sermons and the kind of man in business for many years then click here and scroll down to Hephziba House and of course it's how that, like many other homes like it, have stayed in business for decades).

And I'll add that matrilinear has always made more sense to me, it would solve so many problems...the only ones who should prefer patrilinear descent is where you're trying to keep property in the hands of males (and does seem rooted in the concept that women are similar to breeding stock rather than full human beings), I don't see any other reason for preferring it.

posted November 29, 2013 08:30 PM            

A guy started berating me online about this, saying I was parading my issues around.

Well, it happened. Sorry that it offends you. Rape is not a good thing and will offend.

posted November 29, 2013 09:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MetalAphrodite:
I started being more assertive with speaking about my rape experience because I want to encourage others to understand that having been raped is nothing to be ashamed of.

A guy started berating me online about this, saying I was parading my issues around.

Well, it happened. Sorry that it offends you. Rape is not a good thing and will offend.

That's all I have on my mind right now @__@.

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Years ago I had a relationship with a woman (we still kind of keep in touch today) who was raped by 2-3 men while she was passed out drunk at the age of 16. She had a child from that experience.
She never did get a paternity test done though from the looks of the child she knew who was the father. It belonged to her own boyfriend who actually took part in it!

She raised the child on her own (I think she's 15 years old now). She didn't want to pursue child support and everything. She just wanted to do it herself and have that unbelievable jerk out of her life.

I don't know how open she is about it but she opened up to me about it.

I think in general it's an issue that isn't made big enough and gets overlooked too easily. Just like it's commonplace and no big deal - but it shouldn't be commonplace.
It shouldn't even happen once. There's no reason, no excuse, ever, for any person to rape another.

I simply don't understand how anyone can take it lightly OR actually blame the victim.

I very often feel angry towards not just men who rape, but also men who are obnoxiously aggressive towards women in trying to "get them".
As a whole it seems to cause women to be cautious to the point of making it difficult for even the decent men to get very near to them unless there's another connection - family, friend, etc.

I've talked to this woman online for maybe a year now or 1 1/2 years. She only just recently even told me her first name! Even though she's 5'10" and power lifts and kickboxes. She could probably kick my ***.

Anyway, it upsets me. It shouldn't have to be that way. I don't blame the women. I blame the men who give women a reason to be so cautious.

Just thinking about rape infuriates me. I only intended to write that I'm happy that you speak out about it and are open.
Other rape victims need some example that it's okay to be open about it.

That's the key to defeating it!

posted November 29, 2013 09:55 PM            

For example, rape is a problem in many military systems, including the US, and seems to be given a blessing (and so ridiculous that women can be charged with criminal misconduct when reporting rape when the men aren't charged with anything) while at the very same time the propaganda of the enemy is that those OTHER soldiers will rape...maybe it's a "women are property, not people" thing so it's okay "for us to rape our own women but foreigners aren't allowed the same way we're allowed to rape theirs." Or maybe it's some deep instinct like how lions and I think even some male simians will kill infants not the biological father (in theory it's so the females will go into heat faster though it's noted that such a system helps the "strongest" breed in the species as these males tend to not kill their own offspring).

Oh! I read of a case of Marines gang raping a little girl (like 10) in Japan and they CONFESSED to it, but the United States wanted them protected, and the military even surrounded them with bulletproof shields getting them to court fearing vigilantes (rumors were the Japanese family hired someone to take the rapists out) and the US public wanted the soldiers protected! (In this one case the US government actually thought the marines should be turned over to Japan but the Marines fought that and the US public backed the marines). In contrast an American teenage boy about the same time in some SE Asia country tagged some property with spray paint (stupid teenage stuff) in a country where laws were harsh against that (due to political activity that was done that way in that country) so was getting caned with permanent scars, and the America public supported the boy getting caned for vandalism while protecting US Marines who confessed to gang raping a little girl! Just how did Americans get so screwed up that many in our country think spray painting a building is worse than gang raping a little girl and/or that a teen boy should be held to higher standards than US Marines!?

A really blatant example is the United Nations in places like Bosnia (though not just there). There UN forces both facilitated the traffic of women (some not even in their teens) for sex purposes and UN peacekeepers were paying for sex as well. A few of the more decent men tried to put a stop to it by filing reports and even arresting fellow peacekeepers but those men were always fired with the abusers left alone or even put back in the field if arrested (charges dropped). It became a brief scandal when a woman (Kathryn Bokovac), sick of seeing this and having her reports tossed in the garbage, went to the press, which of course ruined her career as a law enforcer since she tattled on other cops. She at least forced the issue into light so some slaps on the wrist did have to be given out, but until public scrutiny was forced on the issue (and it was quickly buried) the UN (including supposedly some of the most civilized countries in the world) both helped and patronized sex traffickers, including of children. And since then one of the major charities (I forget, Save the Children, Doctors Without Borders, one like that) reported similar abuse and rape in Africa by UN peacekeepers that was also buried under the carpet (and I think the charity harassed by the UN with the story almost vanishing after).