posted November 30, 2013 12:23 AM            

I will say though, about rape in the military. Whether on the inside or against citizens of another country. I think people get WAY too patriotic. It's good to be patriotic but lets not lose our common sense, right?
Yes, they are protecting and serving. Giving their life for us (Americans)and that's amazing. Probably more than I could do. They deserve all the recognition that they get. However, they also represent the US. To me it only makes sense that they should be held to higher standards, held more accountable, and have more severe punishment for serious crimes. It's no wonder that the US gets a poor image when we protect our soldiers when they commit such a crime against another countries citizens. Just sickening to me.

posted November 30, 2013 05:31 PM            

I'm so sorry to everyone here who had to go through that. Physical violence is always awful, but I imagine it's the emotional part that really does you in. Having to go through the shame, the nasty remarks that you were asking for it, or just plain not being believed. That should never have happened and you have my sympathy.

Thanks to some of the men here for showing that some men are still on their side and will back them up when they, sadly, have to go through something that terrifying.

Obviously, I can't speak for anyone else as I thankfully have never had that happening to me (*knocks on wood*), but I think replies like that will help them quite a lot. When someone goes through something that traumatic, they need support. Be there for them as their friend by showing there's still good guys around who don't take advantage of her. And no, that's not "being p***********", it's respecting a woman and sticking up for them when they need them.

There are so many reasons why someone won't report, each of them pointed out here by other women here. That fear and humiliation can make even the toughest women back down, afraid it won't help anyway. Wanting to get away from it all - the feelings, the pain, the shame - just so you can, somehow manage to move on and pick your life back up.

Sometimes you're just not ready. You just can't do it, it's already enough of a challenge to just survive and go through your emotions. Should she be forced to ignore her feelings? When there's a chance she may not even get to see the jerk get arrested? Sometimes all they are even capable of doing is to try to get by. I don't think you can tell them to go against what they feel and "do the right thing". Things like, "There may be other women who may get hurt if you don't speak up" can backfire and make them feel even worse: selfish (while they're just trying to save themselves at the moment). They can't help other women when they haven't helped themselves yet.

Everyone here is so right, it is the reactions. To know that someone you trusted, when it was tough enough to talk about it as it was, who was supposed to support you is not on your side. And that's like another kick in the gut when they're already down. Or a person in authority, who you thought was going to do the right thing and protect them, doesn't and says they're making it up or should've expected it.

So, as much as I understand the anger at victims not speaking up (while you want to do something, see them get their justice), do understand that the last thing she needs is someone pushing her again. It may even give her the feeling that she can't even stick up for herself; that she's letting it happen.

posted December 01, 2013 12:20 PM            

I can see that you are trying to keep a fair and just balance here, and it is a tough job.

I have to disagree a little though, the use of genderrelated profanity like this is always insulting, offensive, and most of all absolutely unneccessary, irrespective of context.

--------------------------------------

Everyone has a right to have and express their opinion. However I wished people posessed enough maturity and selfconfidence to express themselves in a clear, yet unaggressive and most of all non-offensive manner.
What good does it do anyway? Do they really think these kinds of words are needed to get their point across?

For the most part I am just reading and not replying. From a more observative point of view I find it interesting to see how people express themselves, and over and over again I find it confirmed that sometimes even more than WHAT is being said, the way HOW it is said, speaks volumes about a person and their way of thinking.

Which is how I realize with whom I do NOT wish to converse.
Because sometimes it`s simply not worth it, as two people may stand so many miles apart that they couldn´t even understand each other, while speaking the same language - technically.
And if I don`t say anything to some of what I have read here (and I DO have my opinion on that), it is mostly because I do not wish to push it even more into the spotlight.
Ther are times someone HAS to speak up, but at other times it will simply backfire in the way that it gives fuel to something that doesn`t deserve the attention.

BTW I am not only talking about the way AG expressed himself on this thread, but about what Ihave been reading on other threads as well throughout the years.

posted December 01, 2013 12:45 PM            

I am often reminded of King Arthur in that Monty Python movie...

posted December 01, 2013 12:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Randall,

I can see that you are trying to keep a fair and just balance here, and it is a tough job.

I have to disagree a little though, the use of genderrelated profanity like this is always insulting, offensive, and most of all absolutely unneccessary, irrespective of context.

---

posted December 01, 2013 03:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Randall,

I can see that you are trying to keep a fair and just balance here, and it is a tough job.

I have to disagree a little though, the use of genderrelated profanity like this is always insulting, offensive, and most of all absolutely unneccessary, irrespective of context.

---

posted December 04, 2013 07:44 PM            

quote:

---

excerpt from a book written in 1928

""A woman came to me in deep distress. The man she loved had left her for other women, and said he never intended to marry her. She was torn with jealousy and resentment and said she hoped he would suffer as he had made her suffer: and added, "How could he leave me when l loved him so much?"

I replied "You are not loving that man, you are hating him, " and added "You can never receive what you have never given. Give a perfect love and you will receive a perfect love. Perfect yourself on this man. Give him a perfect, unselfish love, demanding nothing in return, do not criticise or condemn, and bless him wherever he is."

She replied, "No, l won't bless him unless l know where he is!!"

"Well" l said "that is not real love"

"When you send out real love, real love will return to you, either from this man or his equivalent, for if this man is not the divine selection, you will not want him. As you are one with God, you are one with the love which belongs to you by divine right".

"When you are no longer disturbed by his cruelty, he will cease to be cruel, as you are attracting it through your own emotions."

Florence Shovel Shinn

---

This is essentially saying that all men are devoid of free will and that women magically make men respond to them so everything is her own fault. This is in accordance to when my granny told me that the town not only considered me responsible for my own sexual behavior but also the sexual behavior of all males, including adult males (I was then 13). And more than once I've come across the notion (by men and women both) that men are nothing but animals and only women could civilize them by loving submission.

In any case many men who abuse say that, too, they ask the women and children they batter things like, "Why do you make me do this?" Sometimes they'll even ask that as they're tearing someone up as if angry for being made to be so brutal. Personally I think they're monsters who refuse to take responsibility for themselves and their lack of impulse control and yet there are some very disturbed individuals that such brutes are only teaching spiritual lessons to women who needed to learn to love unconditionally, because it really is her fault if she's not happy with his behavior. She has all the power, though for some reason that gives him all the privilege.

And maybe when a woman falls for a jerk and an abuser she should show him unconditional love just like in Beauty and the Beast as I saw as a child to teach me that notion (or Twilight or countless other romances teach kids today and reinforce in adult women) because that reflects real life no matter how much common sense dictates otherwise. All she has to do is love unconditionally, no matter how he acts, and the beast will turn into a prince...

posted December 04, 2013 08:50 PM            

My parents said it was my fault. They said I brought shame to the family and that I was an embarrassment. I was only 10 years old. They sent me to a psychiatrist and a psychologist and they wanted to admit me to a psychiatric mental hospital. The police wouldn't believe me. They wanted to send me to juvenile prison. For being a victim.

Others can be victims too. Victims get blamed a lot. I know because I know. Been there and walked in those shoes. Not least of all, I was a kid.

posted December 07, 2013 09:07 PM            

“I think in some contexts it is fine, …”

I agree with what Ceri wrote, although I too understand that your responsibility in making these types of decisions is difficult. But I think it would be even more difficult to monitor threads after allowing gender-based profanity on a contextual basis. The reason being that the expression of profanity is usually related to frustration, anger, and rage. So imo, it would be difficult to expect someone to control his/her anger in one context but not in another … because usually anger will tend to get the upper hand. Secondly, you will have to delineate where and in what context it should be allowed which is altogether too much to consider, I think.

“ … as it is slang that females also use.”

I didn’t realize that some women also use the p* word … I was told this recently by a woman friend. I think women who use this type of profanity are themselves contributing to their own disrespect by men, as well as to the disrespect of all women … something that I have touched upon in this thread. Also, imho, a profanity should always be considered a profanity … especially one related to gender … and not promoted to the level of slang even if it is used commonly.

"“I have to balance free expression with insensitivity, … ”

Again, imho, I don’t think free speech (and our right to it) was or should be intended to sexually insult or humiliate another member of the human race, be it man or woman. And besides, the use of profanity (which specifically humiliates another person sexually) is not really the expression of an opinion as Aquaguy has tried to claim … it’s an insult. OTOH if it is the expression of an opinion, then that opinion pretty much says that he does not respect women at all.

"“I will remove the P … ”

Thank you for going through the posts and editing the word.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Randall,

I can see that you are trying to keep a fair and just balance here, and it is a tough job.

I have to disagree a little though, the use of genderrelated profanity like this is always insulting, offensive, and most of all absolutely unneccessary, irrespective of context.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Randall:
… on LL, yes, I agree with you.

---

Thank you. This is important, as it will go a long way in, hopefully, maintaining a high standard of respect on LL.

posted December 07, 2013 09:12 PM            

I'll be back to respond and post some more information for rape victims.

posted December 08, 2013 01:01 AM            

Using the P word was very inappropriate on this thread. When he apologised from my perspective - he apologised for his general behaviour (because occasionally he insults people when an argument heats up - this was not the first time).. I'm sure that he was also apologising for what he said here.

posted December 08, 2013 02:02 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Sigh* I never said some rapes don't go unreported. I just have serious doubts that it is as common as these statistics try to say it is.

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posted December 08, 2013 04:37 AM            

That child molester I just mentioned...he'd been reported to no avail so his daughter got an Eagle Scout friend to have him killed. Whereas using the system failed going outside it worked...but kids being kids they bragged about it and so were busted. The speech given by the prosecutor was infuriating to me, he essentially said that if all she and he get is probation then all the other females also wronged by the system might choose the same path...meaning he KNEW the system wasn't working, but females should just "suck it up, princess." And the author who shared that (a woman) agreed with the reasoning! But I bet had some stranger, teacher, or even college guy in a willing relationship with her would've been crucified by the system had the father (and maybe mother) pressed charges.

Luckily, I believe the girl only got probation after all and the Eagle Scout got like a year in jail, IIRC, and was considered a hero by many (they both had money donated to their legal defense from all over the country) and I consider him a hero, too (though partially because I make allowances for his age, but he was doing it to defend a girl who couldn't defend herself when he knew the system had failed, and if I'd been on his jury I'd have refused to convict as I don't consider him a menace to society).

posted December 08, 2013 11:39 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
Faith - I intentionally avoided this thread.. so I did not read AG's replies here until just now.

---

I avoided it for a while because I knew aquaguy was going to say things that made me livid. There can't be a healing environment here when you have some punk interjecting judgemental language, minimizing women's pain while drawing attention to a whole different matter (men who are wrongly accused.) Of course the victimization of men is always more interesting to aquaguy, and I think most of us KNEW he was going to make it "all about the suffering men" as soon as we saw the thread title.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
Using the P word was very inappropriate on this thread.

---

Really, Odette? That's the only thing you saw, that was inappropriate from him?

The ways he expressed insensitivity are almost too many to list, even Linda Jones' long indictment didn't catch everything.

You don't think that warrants a specific apology? You ask to have a thread shut down when I REQUEST that?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
When he apologised from my perspective - he apologised for his general behaviour (because occasionally he insults people when an argument heats up - this was not the first time).. I'm sure that he was also apologising for what he said here.

---

Did he hire you as his spokeswoman or something?

It's nice that you are accepting his blanket apology for all wrongs ever, but for the people he bothered here, I actually think they deserve more. And he would be a better man if he could say exactly what he did wrong.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
I can't fast forward time and turn AG into the 40 yr old version of himself. When it comes to this topic - He has the views he has in virtue of his age and experiences.

---

You can stop enabling him, though. You can stop downplaying his misogyny and protecting him from others who try and get him to register the fact that he has a problem.

posted December 08, 2013 11:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
This is a brilliant blog on the subject. [URL=http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/more-random-musings-on-rape-culture-nonsense/]http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/more-random-musings-on-rape-culture-nonsense/[/UR L]

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quote:

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Feminism tells us women should have the right to get smashed and party and not get raped, just like men. That just because she does X and Y doesn’t mean she deserves Z. We all agree, in a perfect world that should be the case. But it’s not a perfect world. And the rights you have are not going to protect you all the time. That’s were common sense and reason come into play.
Think of the movie Training Day. There are places even the Police do not go unless they have S.W.A.T. with them.
The POLICE!!!!
They have guns. They have the law behind them. They have the authority and should be the ones most ready to exercise their right to freedom of movement. Yet they are smart enough to know when to stay out of areas unless they have a heavy presence and capable force behind them. Common sense dictates that the individuals right will be trumped by wrong place/wrong time homey syndrome if they walk in alone.

---

By analogy, the author is assuming all men are potential rapists, therefore women should not get smashed at parties. I'm surprised you didn't object here.

Even though, as the author says, there is only a very very tiny chance that she might get sexually assaulted, a girl going into a party smashed is like a cop going into a bad neighborhood, unprepared.

posted December 08, 2013 12:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
By analogy, the author is assuming all men are potential rapists, therefore women should not get smashed at parties. I'm surprised you didn't object here.

Even though, as the author says, there is only a very very tiny chance that she might get sexually assaulted, a girl going into a party smashed is like a cop going into a bad neighborhood, unprepared.

---

posted December 08, 2013 12:21 PM            

You don't object, then? Interesting.

posted December 08, 2013 12:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:

As always you take things way out of context. The point the author is making is a very valid and reasonable point if you actually read what he is saying. He is essentially saying at the end of the day we are all (men and women) responsible for our own personal safety and should avoid putting ourselves in situations that compromise our safety. Would you disagree with that?

---

At the end of a day a crime is a crime. Because one person is drunk does not mean another person can commit a crime. Don't you see the lack of logic here. You think it's okay for someone to commit a crime every time another is drunk? That's like saying, it's twelve noon, that means it's time to commit a crime. Everyone commit a crime at twelve noon, it's okay, and if you let it happen, it's your fault. Would you agree with that?

See how twisted the thinking is here?

Aquaguy, that's one thing you need to realize about life. A crime is always a crime, you cannot rationalize it away. People who do tend to get themselves into a lot of trouble. Think about things, okay?