posted December 09, 2013 08:40 AM            

Sexism: "Respect is a two way street, if you want men to give a sh*t about and respect women, return the respect. Honestly after all the disrespect and nonsense I have put up with from ya'll over the years I have an extremely hard time respecting any of you."

That says we have all been disrespectful to men (huh?) and he can't respect any of us.

Sexism: " I took issue with the fact that nobody even batted an eye at the fact that a girl was harassing a guy but they would have turned into a murderous mob if a guy had been harassing a girl. That's why this stuff about misogyny and rape culture leaves a bad taste in my mouth."

^ Failing to acknowledge women's vulnerability; trivializing it by pretending women and men are equally vulnerable.

Sexism: "I have read plenty of feminist stuff and it all reads the same.. Their junk is always hateful propaganda."

Whatever!

quote:

---

His apology was - for being rude occasionally (rarely) and calling people names. This has happened on other threads as well.

---

He called me a radical feminist man-hater. So you're saying that he is sorry for calling me that?

What am I supposed to feel, getting an apology on his behalf from someone else? It's worthless. I mean, hey that's great that he's aware of being a loose cannon, but the people he insults have gotten no further assurance he will lay off them in the future. He might have been sorry towards other people for other things entirely, and he might respond to this by spreading rumors that I'm a misandrist again.

posted December 09, 2013 10:54 AM            

-------------------------------------------

My personal opinion on the topic is relatively simple.
Rape is a crime. Period.

However it is just as insidious - and shameful for a so-called civilized society- that victims of a crime are being forced to take the blame, which often results in them NOT reporting the crime (because they don`t believe - unfortunately too often rightfully- in getting the help and support they deserve).

I have been wondering, why is that that other people try to pin the blame on the victim, on her (or his - yes men/ boys are being raped, too, and that is JUST AS criminal and evil-) behaviour, clothing style, whatever.

The only answer I was able to come up with was that maybe in this way the other people will feel "safer", like they think, as long as they don`t behave, dress this way, they will be safe from this threat.
Of course it doesn`t really work out this way.

And what about the perprators?
Why do they do this?
I mean seriously, why?
I often hear it is about power mostly and I believe that to be true.
But I honestly don´t really understand it.

What a sad state this world - partially- is in, and has always been in, and apparently has not learned anything as a whole.
It really makes me sad and angry.

posted December 15, 2013 11:10 PM            

Every time I make time to return to this thread I find that it has been de-railed yet again by Aquaguy. I had intended the thread to be a safe haven for rape victims … where they could feel safe posting their experiences and getting support from other members. I’d also wanted to inform others (as best as I could) as well as learn from them, by sharing my ideas about why the rape culture is so prevalent today.

Aquaguy’s attitude right from the start has more or less been—“Rape? What rape? Look at how I was fondled at a party!!!!! Why is that not getting enough support from you guys? How dare you give support to rape victims and not to me!!!!!!!” Under the guise of “expressing” his opinion, he’s been trolling this thread from his very first post. His high degree of self-absorption is pretty astounding to me. Since I have very limited time and I want to use and spend it wisely, I’d like to make sure my thread/s are not going to be de-railed by him anymore.

Reasons why I’d like Aquaguy to stop posting on my threads—

1. He’s trolled this thread right from his first post. [After I began the thread, I’d asked a friend to give me her opinion of my opening post. She’d never visited LL before so I gave her the address of the website and the name of the forum and thread. She called me back a bit later. We discussed my post, after which she asked, “Who’s this Aquaguy?” I said, “Why?” She said, “He’s riling the others.” This came from someone who doesn’t know anyone at LL and was visiting for the first time]. Aquaguy has tried to discredit every premise of the thread by offering personal “opinions”, which are solely based on his dislike of women and not on any factual data. He expected other men to support him and when he didn’t get this support he ended up cussing by using the p* word. If you read only his posts from page 1 through page 9, you can clearly see his increasing frustration. Imo, he’s a troll masquerading as a Mod.

2. He has a love-hate relationship with women—both of which are very unhealthy. The love is from his total dependence on women to validate, and support his masculinity (if he wasn’t so completely out of touch with his own inner feminine energies, he wouldn’t need women to validate him). The hate is for the same reason—his total dependence on women to validate and support his masculinity. [Someone mentioned fast forwarding to age 40 … well at the current trajectory … at 40 he’ll likely be sobbing on a therapist’s couch because his marriage has fallen apart and his wife is walking out on him taking the kids with her … yea, not a pretty picture]. All of this creates problems for other members who have to tolerate his cr*p now.

3. I’m not impressed by mental incontinence, particularly the type that flows from having no filter between the brain and mouth/keyboard.

4. His pre-teen logic and opinions seem to come from the smoky haze of some specially flavored hookah and I don’t have the time to correct the information he writes. But I feel responsible for my thread in case some Newbie decides to take his opinions seriously. His continuous repetition of the same thing over and over again goes beyond an expression of opinion—it is disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing in order to disrupt, which is troll-like behavior.

5. These types of topics are beyond his understanding and grasp, so he has nothing constructive to contribute. Some may be of the opinion that he’s immature … but I don’t remember being this immature even at age 9. I think maturity is a function not so much of age, but of consciousness. [This is why we often see 60 year olds who we know would need several lifetimes to get it right]. Aquaguy’s consciousness is not on the same level as that of most women on this board, whom I find to be very intelligent. At age 23 his consciousness seems to be lacking in basic empathy … something that is learned by children between the ages of 4 to10. [If he’s a couple of months away from turning 23, it doesn’t matter, because I don’t see him becoming an Einstein of relationships in 2-3 months].

6. Although I’m technically not a feminist, since I support men as well as children’s causes, I’m definitely devoted to helping women increase their awareness, particularly since I’ve been experiencing kundalini rising symptoms. Based on his dislike of women, he believes in tearing into them through criticism and suspicion. So we will always be at cross-purposes on all my threads.

7. I don’t have the time to waste in repeatedly complaining about him in thread after thread because he wants to vent and spew his dissatisfaction with women. This matter can be settled once and for all if he stays away from my threads.

8. That he cannot “see” the rape culture and women being exploited all over the world by men, shows that his own mind is steeped in that same culture … which is why he does not view it as a problem. In fact, imo, he’s part of the problem that women are facing.

9. That he continues to play the victim and has not apologized for using the p* word, even after being told by 4 people (one Mod, one a former Mod, one webmaster, and one member) that he was being inappropriate … is very telling of the lack of grace in him. I stand to learn nothing from such a person and don’t wish to have any sort of future conversation with him, especially on my threads.

This is all the time I have for now, so unfortunately ... writing down of more ideas and continuing to try and have a conversation will have to wait till the next time.

posted December 15, 2013 11:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Linda Jones:
Randall,

Every time I make time to return to this thread I find that it has been de-railed yet again by Aquaguy. I had intended the thread to be a safe haven for rape victims … where they could feel safe posting their experiences and getting support from other members. I’d also wanted to inform others (as best as I could) as well as learn from them, by sharing my ideas about why the rape culture is so prevalent today.

Aquaguy’s attitude right from the start has more or less been—“Rape? What rape? Look at how I was fondled at a party!!!!! Why is that not getting enough support from you guys? How dare you give support to rape victims and not to me!!!!!!!” Under the guise of “expressing” his opinion, he’s been trolling this thread from his very first post. His high degree of self-absorption is pretty astounding to me. Since I have very limited time and I want to use and spend it wisely, I’d like to make sure my thread/s are not going to be de-railed by him anymore.

[b]Reasons why I’d like Aquaguy to stop posting on my threads—

1. He’s trolled this thread right from his first post. [After I began the thread, I’d asked a friend to give me her opinion of my opening post. She’d never visited LL before so I gave her the address of the website and the name of the forum and thread. She called me back a bit later. We discussed my post, after which she asked, “Who’s this Aquaguy?” I said, “Why?” She said, “He’s riling the others.” This came from someone who doesn’t know anyone at LL and was visiting for the first time]. Aquaguy has tried to discredit every premise of the thread by offering personal “opinions”, which are solely based on his dislike of women and not on any factual data. He expected other men to support him and when he didn’t get this support he ended up cussing by using the p* word. If you read only his posts from page 1 through page 9, you can clearly see his increasing frustration. Imo, he’s a troll masquerading as a Mod.

2. He has a love-hate relationship with women—both of which are very unhealthy. The love is from his total dependence on women to validate, and support his masculinity (if he wasn’t so completely out of touch with his own inner feminine energies, he wouldn’t need women to validate him). The hate is for the same reason—his total dependence on women to validate and support his masculinity. [Someone mentioned fast forwarding to age 40 … well at the current trajectory … at 40 he’ll likely be sobbing on a therapist’s couch because his marriage has fallen apart and his wife is walking out on him taking the kids with her … yea, not a pretty picture]. All of this creates problems for other members who have to tolerate his cr*p now.

3. I’m not impressed by mental incontinence, particularly the type that flows from having no filter between the brain and mouth/keyboard.

4. His pre-teen logic and opinions seem to come from the smoky haze of some specially flavored hookah and I don’t have the time to correct the information he writes. But I feel responsible for my thread in case some Newbie decides to take his opinions seriously. His continuous repetition of the same thing over and over again goes beyond an expression of opinion—it is disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing in order to disrupt, which is troll-like behavior.

5. These types of topics are beyond his understanding and grasp, so he has nothing constructive to contribute. Some may be of the opinion that he’s immature … but I don’t remember being this immature even at age 9. I think maturity is a function not so much of age, but of consciousness. [This is why we often see 60 year olds who we know would need several lifetimes to get it right]. Aquaguy’s consciousness is not on the same level as that of most women on this board, whom I find to be very intelligent. At age 23 his consciousness seems to be lacking in basic empathy … something that is learned by children between the ages of 4 to10. [If he’s a couple of months away from turning 23, it doesn’t matter, because I don’t see him becoming an Einstein of relationships in 2-3 months].

6. Although I’m technically not a feminist, since I support men as well as children’s causes, I’m definitely devoted to helping women increase their awareness, particularly since I’ve been experiencing kundalini rising symptoms. Based on his dislike of women, he believes in tearing into them through criticism and suspicion. So we will always be at cross-purposes on all my threads.

7. I don’t have the time to waste in repeatedly complaining about him in thread after thread because he wants to vent and spew his dissatisfaction with women. This matter can be settled once and for all if he stays away from my threads.

8. That he cannot “see” the rape culture and women being exploited all over the world by men, shows that his own mind is steeped in that same culture … which is why he does not view it as a problem. In fact, imo, he’s part of the problem that women are facing.

9. That he continues to play the victim and has not apologized for using the p* word, even after being told by 4 people (one Mod, one a former Mod, one webmaster, and one member) that he was being inappropriate … is very telling of the lack of grace in him. I stand to learn nothing from such a person and don’t wish to have any sort of future conversation with him, especially on my threads.

This is all the time I have for now, so unfortunately ... writing down of more ideas and continuing to try and have a conversation will have to wait till the next time.

.[/B]

---

posted December 16, 2013 04:59 AM            

quote:

---

“Rape? What rape? Look at how I was fondled at a party!!!!! Why is that not getting enough support from you guys? How dare you give support to rape victims and not to me!!!!!!!

---

AG did not say this.

AG said he knows rape is a serious crime and should be punished severely. Also, he said he knows that some rapes go unreported.
However, he is skeptical of the number of rapes going unreported being as high as 80% - and - he is questioning the manner in which the statistics are acquired, re: unreported rape.

This skepticism is not *his* alone. As I posted on the previous page.. there are other writers who have researched feminist claims regarding rape. The article I posted discuses "rape culture" in American society - and whether or not the claims regarding rape are exaggerated.

I know that AG's views are controversial. I don't personally agree with him and I am not myself skeptical of the statistics. But he is perfectly entitled to express his views.

The reason the thread veered off.. as I also said previously... is the overall discussion that was created - by both AG and the people continuously replying to him - and perpetuating the conversation. It was not AG alone who veered off the thread.

quote:

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I had intended the thread to be a safe haven for rape victims … where they could feel safe posting their experiences and getting support from other members.

---

posted December 16, 2013 07:02 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
How can it be this whole thread started to circle around Aquaguy only again?

---

He should probably change his handle to Marmite.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
However - if you explained that this was supposed to be a safe haven for victims - I'm sure AG would've zipped it.

---

This is Sweet Peas, the whole point of this forum is for people to discuss sensitive issues, and offer support to others. Not to call into question the seriousness or validity of whatever the issue at hand is.

I understand that people will always have their own views on things, but making judgements on topics such as these is not the right thing to do.

To bring up the issue of Women raping Men, is fine. To do so in a way that dismisses the seriousness and circumstances surrounding rape is highly insensitive.
Well Women should just do this, or just do that, take more care, be careful. In fact, I don't even believe it happens as much as they say, no one ever reports it. Is one giant dismissal of rape as a problem. It is indicative of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the problem.

That is not the point of this thread. The point of this thread isn't, "Hey guys so I know I'm probably going to get... how can I avoid such situations?" This thread is about the seriousness of the crime. The culture behind it, and to whatever extent, that parts of society tolerate it. Not, be smarter, it happens, look it happens to men too, some girl touched me when I didn't want her to. While yes that is a problem, this thread is about rape, which is far more intrusive and destructive, physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually.

I'm all for free speech and differences of opinions. But there is a time and place for everything. This thread, is completely the wrong place, at which point, time does not even factor in to it. Plus the content of things written was incredibly insensitive, and the context in which it was injected was completely wrong.

It feels like walking in to a Rape crisis centre, and saying you need help, and hearing them laugh at you and tell you to get over it, it's no big deal.

I would suggest that anyone who is not being supportive of the topic in this thread, leaves.

posted December 16, 2013 07:11 AM            

I used that word too. So sorry for doing that. I was using it sarcastically to tell Aquaguy how much I disliked that kind of wording. The censor and quotes were done in hope it came across that I really disagree with saying that word - I wouldn't have used it if it hadn't been brought up. My attempt got lost and ugh, I shouldn't have done it to begin with.

So I want to apologize to you for using it, even if I meant well. I didn't think it through and again I honestly don't know as much as I should. Thanks for pointing it out.

Good thing you started this thread, though, I definitely saw you were trying to gather support and empathy for the women who sadly had to go through this. Very good initiative!

So I also want to offer a big hug to anyone who has suffered and needs support.

posted December 16, 2013 07:21 AM            

quote:

---

I think it would be great if Aquaguy creates another thread where he can highlight his points and allow others who have had similar experiences to post there.
That way, everyone's opinion can exist without any thread being derailed from the original intent.

---

quote:

---

This is a sensitive topic. One comment can bring up some bad memories again, you know?

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posted December 16, 2013 07:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
Anything anywhere can bring up bad memories. It's best to have a thicker skin about these things when interacting on a public forum.
If a rape victim saw the article I posted on the previous page - questioning the "rape culture" in US.. they might be personally offended - but it would not be the fault of the writer of the article.

---

I do get that. I'm just not sure how far someone can go to avoid things that may be triggering, especially when this thread was made to give them a safe space to talk (and get the support they may not get in real life).

Of course as a writer you can't be responsible for every reaction you might get, but it's still important to be as careful as possible with these things. You're right that it sometimes goes too far into the other direction - like if someone becomes too afraid of what people will say to give their opinion.

Most people who complained were mad about the timing and offtopic, for as far as I've understood reading along. I agree with IQ too that he should've just made his own thread to offer the perspective of men being harassed by women (and yes that's awful too not taking away from that).

posted December 16, 2013 01:46 PM            

All rape is wrong, and one rape is one too many. No rape is right for any reason, and the only parties to be blamed are the perpetrators and not the victims. There are no extenuating circumstances behind rape and sexual assault. My opinion is that penalties should be considerably harshened, especially with minors.

Having said that, AQ is questioning the validity of a statistic and is expressing his opinion. I don't agree with him, but that's not germane to his intention to express his opinion. As for "lack of empathy," that is how he expresses himself as one with Asperger's. I understand because I have the same thing. You guys could cut him a tiny bit of slack.

posted December 16, 2013 09:49 PM            

The entire vid is relevant, but if you just want to see a brief version then about 40 seconds (starts at 6:20, and I mean for it to go up to 7:00) here should do:
http://youtu.be/_MO_OtB3q-s?t=6m20s

I hope I don't start a debate (if someone wants to debate what I'm about to say that's not in the spirit of this thread then please start a new thread) but I personally believe adult prostitution should be legalized and regulated (at the very least decriminalized). I have my reasons but the biggest reason is that while it's illegal it's almost impossible for someone enslaved by a pimp to get help who abducts and abuses women (and underage girls) with impunity. In some countries legalization has made a positive difference...but in other countries the laws change but attitudes don't and the police brush off sex slaves and others caught up in prostitution who come to them for help (much like how American police gave a naked, drugged Asian boy back to Jeffrey Dahmer and were then cleared for it, and IIRC the boy was the little brother of another boy Dahmer was on probation for molesting!), and I do have to wonder about that.

posted December 17, 2013 02:04 PM            

However, when you have several victims coming together, that ought to establish a more legitimate case.

When I was a sophomore in college, the freshman class president was accused by two different girls of full-blown date rape, and a few other girls came forward to say he had been sexually aggressive with them as well. From what I recall he was found guilty and his sentence was community service and being stripped of his presidency. Many of us were absolutely disgusted that he didn't get an actual prison sentence.

Word of mouth amongst women might be more helpful if women trusted each other. Again in college, a friend of mine said to me one night, "I've got a date with Kyle! He is so hot. Only thing is, I heard he's a rapist...LOL.. that couldn't be true though, he's really polite and smart." I asked who the girls were who said he was a rapist...if it were me, I would have believed those girls...but my friend laughed it off.

posted December 17, 2013 02:10 PM            

I agree prostitution should be legalized. That would at least enable the enslaved prostitutes more of a chance to escape without imprisonment/more tragedy. Basically they are serial rape victims. But it's really complicated when you see the whole "profession" as tragic and know that any attempt to minimize damage might just backfire.

posted December 17, 2013 02:44 PM            

quote:

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A growing number of female students are filing complaints against their colleges and universities, seeking to reform how their institutions deal with sexual violence by fellow students.

Women at Occidental College and the University of Southern California claim that their universities fail to meet federal Title IX standards for preventing and responding to sexual assault on campus.

At Occidental, one victim was shocked to learn that after she graduated, her attacker, who’d admitted to assaulting another student, was allowed back to school after writing a book report about sexual assault.

Students at Swarthmore, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Dartmouth, Yale and UC Berkeley have filed similar complaints.

Their inspiration? The Amherst College student who came forward in the pages of Amherst’s student newspaper last year with her story of how a fellow dorm mate raped her.

The student also recounted how Amherst dissuaded her from getting help, denied her a room change, involuntarily committed her to a psych ward and wouldn’t let her study abroad.

Her attacker graduated with honors.

---

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/07/02/handling-college-rape

posted December 17, 2013 02:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
Well of course, the problem with rape is, there are almost never any witnesses, and unless there is physical battery involved, the evidence and testimony will be debatable...

However, when you have several victims coming together, that ought to establish a more legitimate case.

When I was a sophomore in college, the freshman class president was accused by two different girls of full-blown date rape, and a few other girls came forward to say he had been sexually aggressive with them as well. From what I recall he was found guilty and his sentence was community service and being stripped of his presidency. Many of us were absolutely disgusted that he didn't get an actual prison sentence.

Word of mouth amongst women might be more helpful if women trusted each other. Again in college, a friend of mine said to me one night, "I've got a date with Kyle! He is so hot. Only thing is, I heard he's a rapist...LOL.. that couldn't be true though, he's really polite and smart." I asked who the girls were who said he was a rapist...if it were me, I would have believed those girls...but my friend laughed it off.

The next day I asked, "So? Was he a rapist or not?" She said that he had tried to rip her shirt off and that she physically had to fight him with all her strength before he left her alone. But I know she didn't press charges. I think she felt like an idiot for going into the date with her eyes wide open. So all that happened was, it was just one more "rumor" circulating about the same guy.

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posted December 17, 2013 03:07 PM            

Well it was a downhill spiral from there and my friend got caught up in it. They've since divorced.

posted December 17, 2013 03:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
It's tricky. Okay here's another story. A friend of mine married a guy that she had known since childhood...but never really knew. He had been molested when he was around 8, and persuaded his mother to press charges. The attacker was found innocent, turned around and sued the boy's family for libel and WON the case. So the family lost a lot of money, the boy was blamed, turned to drugs....

Well it was a downhill spiral from there and my friend got caught up in it. They've since divorced.

My point: No, there's not going to be a better way of dealing with it. There will be injustice always.

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posted December 17, 2013 05:34 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Just the other day I saw a picture of a man accused of groping a teenage girl on the front page of the paper. The article also listed his name and address! That is just plain wrong in my opinion. Of course you could argue that he deserves what he gets but what if he is actually innocent? Even if he is found not guilty in a trial his reputation is already shot and he has to worry about nut jobs coming to his house and trying to kill him because they now have his name and address. If I had my way these matters would be dealt with in a discreet and professional manner.

---

Are you doing this for the attention? I thought you were just honestly stating a contrary opinion and then a cycle gets started as people react and you defend yourself (which inspired some grudging sympathy in me for you even if I didn't agree with you) but this time people let you have your say and now you're coming up with new things to throw at people which is a deliberate attempt to disrupt this thread.

And I'm not inclined to believe this (like some other things you've posted). On the off chance that his pic and address really were posted he now has grounds to sue. But frankly I think you pulled that out of your butt (whether inspired of fear of what could happen or an outright invention, IDK), and even if you're not then that's certainly the exception to the rule. I read enough papers to know better than that, just as I've watched enough shows to know things you assert about them are not true either.

You've lost my benefit of a doubt. I no longer believe you're just trying to have a say or balance the issue but rather you're being a troll out of some sense of hostility or amusement.

posted December 17, 2013 05:44 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
Are you doing this for the attention? I thought you were just honestly stating a contrary opinion and then a cycle gets started as people react and you defend yourself (which inspired some grudging sympathy in me for you even if I didn't agree with you) but this time people let you have your say and now you're coming up with new things to throw at people which is a deliberate attempt to disrupt this thread.

And I'm not inclined to believe this (like some other things you've posted). On the off chance that his pic and address really were posted he now has grounds to sue. But frankly I think you pulled that out of your butt (whether inspired of fear of what could happen or an outright invention, IDK), and even if you're not then that's certainly the exception to the rule. I read enough papers to know better than that, just as I've watched enough shows to know things you assert about them are not true either.

You've lost my benefit of a doubt. I no longer believe you're just trying to have a say or balance the issue but rather you're being a troll out of some sense of hostility or amusement.

ETA: Of course in saying this you've just scored another point in your game. But the others are right, you're going to dominate every thread like this come hell or high water. As long as you're the pet here then I move no more threads about rape ever be posted in this forum again.

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posted December 18, 2013 09:02 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:

I believe that we could find a better way to deal with it. If I made my way these cases would be kept hush hush and left out of the media circus.

---

I agree that the media goes too far condemning suspects before trial. If I had my way, that would be illegal.

But let's look at the silver lining. Many of them are guilty, and rapists tend to be repeat offenders. The media alerts other victims and may help bring them together to stand trial. The number of witnesses is key.

When you said we could find "a better way to deal with it" I thought you were going to talk about how we can do a better job ensuring that the rape victims are protected through the legal process, but you're more focused on ensuring that the accused are protected, which to me is a lesser concern. From what I've seen in statistics and real life, I believe it's rare for men to be falsely accused. For one thing, when the victims go to trial they will also be accused, scrutinized, subject to criticism, and that is a major deterrent.

Ever see the movie The Accused? Jodie Foster's character is gang raped and then grilled and humiliated on the witness stand. And this is common, this is still what's in store for victims when they head to court.