posted April 04, 2014 02:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
^

If you do not want people to address your highly controversial and intolerant opinions, don't voice them.

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posted April 04, 2014 02:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
^

If you do not want people to address your highly controversial and intolerant opinions, don't voice them.

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Being gay isn't?

posted April 04, 2014 02:48 PM            

I don't wish to ignore you, so I'm not. What would be the point in ignoring you when I wish to challenge your views? I think they're offensive and they need to change. I realize you are not going to change your views right away, but I believe that if you hear these arguments often enough, in many different ways and from as many different people as possible then you might eventually start questioning the beliefs you hold so uncompromisingly and completely without scrutiny.

DeepFreeze, Seeing as homosexuality is as old as sexuality itself, and is now widely accepted in the Western world (and almost universally so in intellectual communities) then no, I do not think it is controversial at all.

posted April 04, 2014 02:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
I can handle disagreement just fine. That doesn't mean I have to accept it. I have absolutely no problem arguing back. It's you two whom seem to find it so tiresome.

I don't wish to ignore you, so I'm not. What would be the point in ignoring you when I wish to challenge your views? I think they're offensive and they need to change. I realize you are not going to change your views right away, but I believe that if you hear these arguments often enough, in many different ways and from as many different people as possible then you might eventually start questioning the beliefs you hold so uncompromisingly and completely without scrutiny.

DeepFreeze, Seeing as homosexuality is as old as sexuality itself, and is now widely accepted in the Western world (and almost universally so in intellectual communities) then no, I do not think it is controversial at all.

You can't use the US as an index. It's not generally a very progressive country, and hardly representative.

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I don't think so. Argue however many times you'd like. I'm not budging. You don't think that what you're saying isn't offensive to me? What about how I feel or believe? Why isn't that good enough for people like you. Why aren't my beliefs just as important as yours? You wanna be gay, cool. Good for you. I just don't want it shoved in my face or that I have to be forced to accept it. Because I'm not.

posted April 04, 2014 03:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
I do know where to find it, but unfortunately I don't have time right now. I have 5000 words due Monday on the effects of ignorance (my choice of topic) in war. So I'm a little busy right now. I might as well have addressed homosexuality in this regard, but instead I chose war which (in general terms) I think is only slightly more important.

I will tell you though, that the kind of arguments that you are using here show an alarmingly low level of integrative complexity, which means that you are largely unable to access other people's perspective. It is reflected in statements such as "whatever you say is never ever ever going to change how I think/believe/feel", "how I think/believe/feel does not impact anyone else". In addition to this, you (and many others on this thread) largely adhere to stereotypical descriptions and reference either to scripture or tradition. This shows inflexibility, unwillingness to compromise, and inability to comprehend "the Other". This is the kind of stuff that wars are made of (on an international level, obviously, but also where there is inter-communal violence and protracted conflict).

Interesting point of fact, did you know liberals are cognitively more complex than conservatives? The least complex are;

Extreme Right
Then Extreme Left
Then Moderate Right
And finally the most complex are the Moderate Left.

If you want to have a look on the research that goes into homosexuality in animals though, I would start off on JSTOR or plain old wikipedia. They may not always be factually correct, but they are argumentatively balanced and do contain allot of references that you can look into.

There is also the following article as a good starting point; http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090616122106.htm

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I'm Leo/Virgo (mostly)
I'm stubborn, fixed and I think for myself.

Basically, it's like this. The burden of proof is on you all to say that it's natural, that it's not a choice, etc.

CLEARLY, it's evident biologically, that male and female belong together to reproduce. You can't do it with male/male or female/female. It's this way all throughout the world. EVEN IF it occurred in "nature" (which I don't believe it does) doesn't mean it's natural.
YOU CANNOT REPRODUCE! That's the basic idea of having different sexes... to reproduce. To carry on our genes. Males in animals often kill young of other males. It's about reproduction and carrying on. You can't do that with same sex. It goes against nature... be it human, animal, etc.
Can you prove to me that it is natural? I can promise you that I will come up with MUCH MUCH more evidence to prove that it is natural for male/female pairings.

It's not controversial in your head but it is controversial. Why else would be having this debate? Why else would there be protests? Why would all of this be going on in the world? The fight for the right for same sex marriage, etc?
CLEARLY, it is.

posted April 04, 2014 03:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
I can handle disagreement just fine. That doesn't mean I have to accept it. I have absolutely no problem arguing back. It's you two whom seem to find it so tiresome.

I don't wish to ignore you, so I'm not. What would be the point in ignoring you when I wish to challenge your views? I think they're offensive and they need to change. I realize you are not going to change your views right away, but I believe that if you hear these arguments often enough, in many different ways and from as many different people as possible then you might eventually start questioning the beliefs you hold so uncompromisingly and completely without scrutiny.

DeepFreeze, Seeing as homosexuality is as old as sexuality itself, and is now widely accepted in the Western world (and almost universally so in intellectual communities) then no, I do not think it is controversial at all.

You can't use the US as an index. It's not generally a very progressive country, and hardly representative.

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Tiresome - yes... because one can only go on the merry-go-round for so long before they become ill.
This is a circle. I don't want to be trapped in the same space forever and ever. I'd like to go explore some other places once in a while.

Do you see an end to this? I don't.
If you do then it must be on your end.

No matter how I feel, do you think there will suddenly be an end to gay people? No. Do honestly believe that EVERY PERSON is going to be okay with gays/bi's?

Do you see my point? I have other things to do than continue in a never ending battle. It's like, "What did you do today?"
"Oh I argued with some people on the internet about gays."

"Did you do that yesterday?"

"yes, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before"

posted April 04, 2014 03:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
I'm Leo/Virgo (mostly)
I'm stubborn, fixed and I think for myself.

Basically, it's like this. The burden of proof is on you all to say that it's natural, that it's not a choice, etc.

CLEARLY, it's evident biologically, that male and female belong together to reproduce. You can't do it with male/male or female/female. It's this way all throughout the world. EVEN IF it occurred in "nature" (which I don't believe it does) doesn't mean it's natural.
YOU CANNOT REPRODUCE! That's the basic idea of having different sexes... to reproduce. To carry on our genes. Males in animals often kill young of other males. It's about reproduction and carrying on. You can't do that with same sex. It goes against nature... be it human, animal, etc.
Can you prove to me that it is natural? I can promise you that I will come up with MUCH MUCH more evidence to prove that it is natural for male/female pairings.

It's not controversial in your head but it is controversial. Why else would be having this debate? Why else would there be protests? Why would all of this be going on in the world? The fight for the right for same sex marriage, etc?
CLEARLY, it is.

Talk about ignorance. You might be fancy with speech, but it doesn't mean that you can't be ignorant.

---

I think the debate over homosexuality is still perceived as "a controversial" debate not because most people disagree with it, but because homosexuals are still a minority and so allot of people simply do not have the motivation to argue with the brick wall that religious extremism. Unfortunately, homosexuals are biologically in the minority, even in animals. That does not mean that they are unnatural, at least not any more unnatural than a sterile couple, an asexual person, a nun, a monk, a couple choosing not to have children, someone loosing a leg (we're supposed to walk on two legs), a child dying from leukemia (also "unnatural") etc. Can you really tell me that you are basing your opinion on homosexuality as an unnatural phenomenon on the basis that they cannot have children? If so, do you equally judge people who themselves choose not to have them even when they are in a committed heterosexual couple and are able to? Do you judge people who choose to stay with their partner when the partner turns out to be sterile because the "natural" path for humans is to have children?

I really do not see the issue of homosexuals not reproducing. If anything, it should be a good thing! The globe is already extremely overpopulated. If people want to be gay, I say great for them! I'm certainly not going to judge. Even Alexander the Great was gay. It was extremely common (and widely accepted) in ancient Greece.

posted April 04, 2014 03:18 PM            

Barbie is entitled to think what she wants to. If you don't agree with her, it's tough ******* for you. She is ENTITLED to an opinion. FFS, she's an American and she has that protection under the US Constitution to say this. I'm finding it very bizarre that as an Australian (which has an implied narrow freedom to political talk) is defending an American to express her opinions, yet most of the people on this thread are American and quite happy to deny her constitutional right.

You can say what you want to say, she isn't changing her mind. As I've said before, it's the so-called most tolerant people in life that are the least intolerant, that want to ram their opinions down your throats and tell you are wrong and try to SILENCE you from expressing yourself with their PC bs.

You are all so wrong and none of you see that because you are al so rabid protecting your own bums instead of respectfully debating and accepting each others' opinions.

You are ALL wrong.

And Cappy, don't play innocent and stupid. You are a eyelash batting potstirrer and always have been.

posted April 04, 2014 03:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
Tiresome - yes... because one can only go on the merry-go-round for so long before they become ill.
This is a circle. I don't want to be trapped in the same space forever and ever. I'd like to go explore some other places once in a while.

Do you see an end to this? I don't.
If you do then it must be on your end.

No matter how I feel, do you think there will suddenly be an end to gay people? No. Do honestly believe that EVERY PERSON is going to be okay with gays/bi's?

Do you see my point? I have other things to do than continue in a never ending battle. It's like, "What did you do today?"
"Oh I argued with some people on the internet about gays."

"Did you do that yesterday?"

"yes, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before"

"Damn man... you need some new hobbies."

---

posted April 04, 2014 03:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sibyl:
I think the debate over homosexuality is still perceived as "a controversial" debate not because most people disagree with it, but because homosexuals are still a minority and so allot of people simply do not have the motivation to argue with the brick wall that religious extremism. Unfortunately, homosexuals are biologically in the minority, even in animals. That does not mean that they are unnatural, at least not any more unnatural than a sterile couple, an asexual person, a nun, a monk, a couple choosing not to have children, someone loosing a leg (we're supposed to walk on two legs), a child dying from leukemia (also "unnatural") etc. Can you really tell me that you are basing your opinion on homosexuality as an unnatural phenomenon on the basis that they cannot have children? If so, do you equally judge people who themselves choose not to have them even when they are in a committed heterosexual couple and are able to? Do you judge people who choose to stay with their partner when the partner turns out to be sterile because the "natural" path for humans is to have children?

I really do not see the issue of homosexuals not reproducing. If anything, it should be a good thing! The globe is already extremely overpopulated. If people want to be gay, I say great for them! I'm certainly not going to judge. Even Alexander the Great was gay. It was extremely common (and widely accepted) in ancient Greece.

Of course I can also be ignorant, DeepFreeze. I don't pretend to be perfect. In fact if you want to know my faults I'll readily tell you. Being impatient with people is one of them, and I do profess you are frustrating me greatly right now.

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posted April 04, 2014 03:23 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
It's interesting, DeepFreeze, how you always end an argument by saying it is tiresome and you can't be asked to put up with it so you are going to leave now... But not before YOU get the last word. Which is so childish.

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posted April 04, 2014 03:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 23:
There's some really primitive people on this website.

Barbie is entitled to think what she wants to. If you don't agree with her, it's tough ******* for you. She is ENTITLED to an opinion. FFS, she's an American and she has that protection under the US Constitution to say this. I'm finding it very bizarre that as an Australian (which has an implied narrow freedom to political talk) is defending an American to express her opinions, yet most of the people on this thread are American and quite happy to deny her constitutional right.

You can say what you want to say, she isn't changing her mind. As I've said before, it's the so-called most tolerant people in life that are the least intolerant, that want to ram their opinions down your throats and tell you are wrong and try to SILENCE you from expressing yourself with their PC bs.

You are all so wrong and none of you see that because you are al so rabid protecting your own bums instead of respectfully debating and accepting each others' opinions.

You are ALL wrong.

And Cappy, don't play innocent and stupid. You are a eyelash batting potstirrer and always have been.

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Maybe you get this allot because your opinions are just plain wrong.

posted April 04, 2014 03:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
Pfft.... That's why I'm here right? Going back and forth?
Don't call it what it is until you've seen what it is.
I will not cave to your personal insults. You don't know me THAT well.

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I'm just pointing out that it has already happened no less than three times on this very thread. Perhaps you weren't aware. Maybe you are now.

posted April 04, 2014 03:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
Maybe you get this allot because your opinions are just plain wrong.

Of course Barbie and everyone else is entitled to an opinion, but the last time I heard the internet wasn't a territory in the United States and the United States is not the centre of the world nor the dome of knowledge. So although she is welcome to have her opinion, I am also welcome to have mine, and to use MY freedom of speech to say that I think she, and you, and whoever else chooses to judge people for something they truly CANNOT control, like their sexual preference, are acting like idiots (ARE not idiots, but are ACTING thus). Your opinions, on the other hand, are your choice, and so you are responsible and accountable to them and must be able to tolerate other people telling you theirs.

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posted April 04, 2014 03:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
Get your last word in. I'll be the adult and let you have it. Feel better?

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posted April 04, 2014 03:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
Maybe you get this allot because your opinions are just plain wrong.

Of course Barbie and everyone else is entitled to an opinion, but the last time I heard the internet wasn't a territory in the United States and the United States is not the centre of the world nor the dome of knowledge. So although she is welcome to have her opinion, I am also welcome to have mine, and to use MY freedom of speech to say that I think she, and you, and whoever else chooses to judge people for something they truly CANNOT control, like their sexual preference, are acting like idiots (ARE not idiots, but are ACTING thus). Your opinions, on the other hand, are your choice, and so you are responsible and accountable to them and must be able to tolerate other people telling you theirs.

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Er, my understandings is that this website is run from US soil, that might have some bearing to the argument.

posted April 04, 2014 03:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sibyl:
Seriously, if you wanna leave, just leave. No point in announcing it.

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posted April 04, 2014 03:38 PM            

It's quite obvious to me that we see things very differently. First of all, I don't care much about the harmony that you seem to be craving so much. I really don't see the point in it. There is no challenge in harmony, and I want to grow. Which is why I'm being difficult to you. I'm just like that. I'm in politics, so I can do this kind of stuff all day. And I'm older than you, though not by much. So I don't think that really matters.

As to bullying? Excuse me, but how many videos have you posted of people with laughing and mocking expressions? 5 at this point, I think? Something like that. All directed at me, as if I'm some ridiculous person and you cannot believe what you are hearing, and I'm beyond all reason and not even worth addressing or listening to. In addition to this I have three people arguing against my one person right now, you are hardly a victim here.