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Author
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Topic: DMV Orders Gender Nonconforming Teen To Remove Makeup!
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PixieJane
Knowflake Posts: 9849
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 24, 2014 04:21 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
I don't think we brought up marriage anywhere?  We are talking about legal identification right? South Carolina is following federal law in that aspect. The way a state marries varies in each state.
We're also talking about standards enforced by law and "the way things are done." Laws aren't logic, they're community standards, and the standards change when they are challenged. And they should be challenged (not to say these challenges should necessarily succeed). Not say "well it's the law therefore it's right and proper for now and always." If that were the case then we'd still be in the dark ages. Other than that, I just thought it was funny and that this thread could use a little comic relief. IP: Logged |
ariestaurus
Knowflake Posts: 426
From:
Registered: Feb 2013
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posted June 24, 2014 04:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
It's because you're a women. He is dressing like a women therefore giving the idea of him being one. He's a boy, a legal boy so he has to look like one in his picture. Gender non-conformist isn't acceptable when trying to get legal documented identification. Unless I've been hiding under a rock and missed it... 
I was referring to DF's point that we should have to remove anything 'unnatural' to take pictures. Again, if this were the case, I'd have to remove my make-up, too, regardless of the fact that Im a woman because make-up is unnatural. In the words of Pixie Jane: Just because "it's how it works" doesn't mean "therefore it's right and should never be challenged." Also, have you seen the before and after pics of him before and after make-up? Like, come on... The Police really had to make a huge deal out of.. this? Edit to add: Is it REALLY such a big difference? If he were to be arrested and his make up were removed, would he be unidentifiable?? NO! You can tell it's the same person. The police are just giving him a hard time. People are afraid of things they know nothing about.  IP: Logged |
Barbiegirl19
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 04:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
We're also talking about standards enforced by law and "the way things are done." Laws aren't logic, they're community standards, and the standards change when they are challenged. And they should be challenged (not to say these challenges should necessarily succeed). Not say "well it's the law therefore it's right and proper for now and always." If that were the case then we'd still be in the dark ages.Other than that, I just thought it was funny and that this thread could use a little comic relief.
Those are two different subjects, one being a choice soo..... IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Knowflake Posts: 9849
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 24, 2014 04:28 PM
^^Put in its most simplistic form his being able to wear light makeup as a woman does (and as he normally does) is similar to a black person being able to ride in the front of the bus like a white person. Standards (and the laws that enforce them) change all the time when challenged so vive la différence. IP: Logged |
Barbiegirl19
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 04:30 PM
That is one that WILL never change. You can't pick your gender to none. It's one or the other. Even those same examples you used had to pick one. We're once again not making a very strong, logical argument other than giving him what he wants, and he has to have what he wants. IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Knowflake Posts: 9849
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 24, 2014 04:31 PM
Did you know that one time girls wore blue and boys wore pink because that was the color appropriate for that gender? Gender doesn't change but the standards for them do.IP: Logged |
Barbiegirl19
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 04:34 PM
That may be true. But what was the logic behind it? To prove that a boy was a boy and a girl a girl. You always had to and will always have to be a gender, regardless of the change or not. You can't be genderless, it's not scientifically, humanly possible. IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Knowflake Posts: 9849
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 24, 2014 04:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
he has to have what he wants.
Yes, because this is who he is and how he chooses to express himself and that's very important to him, and it's also what he needs to get by as himself. Perhaps what's confusing is you're mistaking "makeup" for female, just as people once mistook "blue" for girl, but that is destined to change. It is the state that can't produce a logical argument other than "because we say so." And that's why they're being challenged, and I expect it's why the state will also lose as being arbitrary as the state is being often doesn't go over well when challenged in court. IP: Logged |
KarkaQueen
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 04:37 PM
You have to admit guys. he's pretty.IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Knowflake Posts: 9849
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 24, 2014 04:38 PM
^^Yes, he is!  IP: Logged |
ariestaurus
Knowflake Posts: 426
From:
Registered: Feb 2013
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posted June 24, 2014 04:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KarkaQueen:
You have to admit guys. he's pretty.
Sooo pretty! IP: Logged |
Barbiegirl19
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 04:40 PM
^ He is pretty
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
Yes, because this is who he is and how he chooses to express himself and that's very important to him, and it's also what he needs to get by as himself. Perhaps what's confusing is you're mistaking "makeup" for female, just as people once mistook "blue" for girl, but that is destined to change. It is the state that can't produce a logical argument other than "because we say so." And that's why they're being challenged, and I expect it's why the state will also lose as being arbitrary as the state is being often doesn't go over well when challenged in court.
No it's because it makes sense. Not because the government says so. I never said guys can't wear makeup. They do, some of my favorite makeup artists are guys and they're beautiful. That's beside the point. He will never be genderless ever, no human ever will be. Deal with it and move on. He will forever have to be a guy until he legally changes to woman. Those are the only options. There is no in between and believe me that will win. IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Knowflake Posts: 9849
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 24, 2014 04:49 PM
^^If we were talking about the part that says "Gender" on his license then you would be correct. But he's willing to go by "Male." That's not being challenged. What is being challenged is his right to look as he always does which in no way threatens national security nor is his appearance biologically female. That is to say he wasn't born with makeup on, that's strictly a social construct, not a biological one. Without surgery he will always be a male and his license will say so, but that is different from how he chooses to look and the state simply doesn't have a valid argument that's likely to hold up in court regarding his appearance (as opposed to his gender classification). IP: Logged |
Barbiegirl19
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 04:51 PM
Yes it does. The state argues that they can't give special handouts because he dresses and acts female although he's male. If that were the case then criminals would go the same route. It's his choice to be that way, no one argues that but unfortunately there are standard guidelines when it comes to legal identification that are for our protection and well being. His case will be immediately thrown out if there even is one and laughed at. It's ridiculous, just deal with it and move on. IP: Logged |
PixieJane
Knowflake Posts: 9849
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted June 24, 2014 04:53 PM
I think we've said all that can be said and content to let the courts deal with it from here on out. Now I've got to finish an email... IP: Logged |
ariestaurus
Knowflake Posts: 426
From:
Registered: Feb 2013
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posted June 24, 2014 04:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
^ He is pretty
No it's because it makes sense. Not because the government says so. I never said guys can't wear makeup. They do, some of my favorite makeup artists are guys and they're beautiful. That's beside the point. He will never be genderless ever, no human ever will be. Deal with it and move on. He will forever have to be a guy until he legally changes to woman. Those are the only options. There is no in between.
Yes, the vast majority of us are born with either a penis or a vagina. Some are born with both male and female reproductive organs, of course. That will not change. That's not gender- that's a person's sex. The characteristics we assign to each sex are what makes up a gender (i.e. boys wear blue, girls wear pink, boys play with trucks, girls play with dolls, etc.), and that is constantly changing and the lines are becoming more and more blurred. Things like make-up and clothing have nothing to do with biology; these things are reflections of the societies in which we live. I strongly believe we're heading in a direction in which gender is no longer relevant. IP: Logged |
Barbiegirl19
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 04:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ariestaurus:
Yes, the vast majority of us are born with either a penis or a vagina. Some are born with both male and female reproductive organs, of course. That will not change. That's not gender- that's a person's sex.The characteristics we assign to each sex are what makes up a gender (i.e. boys wear blue, girls wear pink, boys play with trucks, girls play with dolls, etc.), and that is constantly changing and the lines are becoming more and more blurred. Things like make-up and clothing have nothing to do with biology; these things are reflections of the societies in which we live. I strongly believe we're heading in a direction in which gender is no longer relevant.
I disagree but that's me and millions of others so. Regardless of what things make us boy or girl a person will forever have to classify themselves as a woman or man. That's like saying pepperoni pizza and cheese pizza aren't pizza. You have an option with what's on top but it's still pizza. A human is a human of course but there are women humans and male humans, not an in between. IP: Logged |
ariestaurus
Knowflake Posts: 426
From:
Registered: Feb 2013
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posted June 24, 2014 04:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
Yes it does. The state argues that they can't give special handouts because he dresses and acts female although he's male. If that were the case then criminals would go the same route. It's his choice to be that way, no one argues that but unfortunately there are standard guidelines when it comes to legal identification that are for our protection and well being. His case will be immediately thrown out if there even is one and laughed at. It's ridiculous, just deal with it and move on.
What special handouts..? IP: Logged |
DeepFreeze
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 05:00 PM
Was Michael Jackson a "racial" nonconformist?How did he list himself? Oh boy, there's a big can of worms. LOL
IP: Logged |
Barbiegirl19
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 05:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ariestaurus:
What special handouts..?
He's "no gender" but can look female. Trying to change his appearance although he's clearly male. Obstructing the way he looks naturally because he likes to wear dresses and look like a woman, although he's male but doesn't want to identify as so. That has "easy way to get out of trouble" all over it. It's unnecessary. IP: Logged |
ariestaurus
Knowflake Posts: 426
From:
Registered: Feb 2013
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posted June 24, 2014 05:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
I disagree but that's me and millions of others so. Regardless of what things make us boy or girl a person will forever have to classify themselves as a woman or man. That's like saying pepperoni pizza and cheese pizza aren't pizza. You have an option with what's on top but it's still pizza. A human is a human of course but there are women humans and male humans, not an in between.
You don't seem to grasp the difference between gender and sex. Yes, we will all be born with penises or vaginas- no one is denying this. Even the kid in question doesn't seem to mind; he identifies himself as a male on his driver's license- that's not what he's debating. He's debating the fact that he can't wear make-up in his photo, even though he wears make-up all the time. I feel like I'm just repeating what PJ is saying again IP: Logged |
Barbiegirl19
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 05:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ariestaurus:
You don't seem to grasp the difference between gender and sex. Yes, we will all be born with penises or vaginas- no one is denying this. Even the kid in question doesn't seem to mind; he identifies himself as a male on his driver's license- that's not what he's debating. He's debating the fact that he can't wear make-up in his photo, even though he wears make-up all the time. I feel like I'm just repeating what PJ is saying again
I've been repeating myself too. So....don't continue it then. Say your opinion and don't try critiquing those that disagree. It's the law he has to follow it. The drama is not necessary. IP: Logged |
DeepFreeze
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 05:06 PM
He's a kid who is impatient to do things the right way and most likely learned that whining gets him what he wants.
Just my theory. Wooooo
It's getting hot in here.  IP: Logged |
DeepFreeze
unregistered
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posted June 24, 2014 05:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ariestaurus:
You don't seem to grasp the difference between gender and sex. Yes, we will all be born with penises or vaginas- no one is denying this. Even the kid in question doesn't seem to mind; he identifies himself as a male on his driver's license- that's not what he's debating. He's debating the fact that he can't wear make-up in his photo, even though he wears make-up all the time. I feel like I'm just repeating what PJ is saying again
And so shall be the rest of the 5-10 pages of this thread.
Us..
All of us, repeating ourselves for days until closure of the thread.
That's why...
I'm kind of just having some fun with sharing my view.
No one is going to budge a millimeter until frustration builds to the point of vulgarity. Very likely anyway. IP: Logged |
ariestaurus
Knowflake Posts: 426
From:
Registered: Feb 2013
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posted June 24, 2014 05:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
He's "no gender" but can look female. Trying to change his appearance although he's clearly male. Obstructing the way he looks naturally because he likes to wear dresses and look like a woman, although he's male but doesn't want to identify as so. That has "easy way to get out of trouble" all over it. It's unnecessary.
Again, as PJ pointed out ,he identifies himself as a male on his driver's license. Yes, he says he is a gender non-conformist, but his issue isn't with the fact that is says "Male" on his driver's license- it's that he isn't allowed to wear make-up as he normally does. This issue is about make-up- the picture is just of his face so the way he was dressed for the picture wouldn't matter.
Look at the before and after pics.. Do you really see such a huge difference between pic 1 and pic 2? And you're worried that criminals would do the same? As if Charles Manson would have escaped from the police if only he'd had a bit of lipstick on in his driver's license pic!!!
IP: Logged |
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