posted October 27, 2013 05:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I love how I can leave the forum for a few hours, come back and see how well you've been dealing with Ami...it's like we are a tag team!

Or maybe we are just in an Echo chamber.

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Faith,

Leo Sun, Leo rising. Not conjunct. My 11th cusp is actually in Taurus but Gemini is intercepted in it.

posted October 27, 2013 05:12 PM            

Not to derail, but as someone who has algol as a reiterating theme through several family generations, and not one beheading, or anything like violent death or lives...i went looking for more depth.

I believe it was darkstar astrology who first opened my eyes to the very positive aspects of this placement in your personal makeup.

Also, several astrologers point to the possibility that Algol people are returners from the Holocaust here to ensure it doesn't happen again. As someone who lost most of her extended family on one side to that period, and on the other to the potato famine in ireland, it more than makes sense to me. Or if reincarnation makes no sense to you, this history is a part of your makeup in some way it influences you now.

posted October 27, 2013 06:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Catalina:
lol at this keela
"Oh noes, Algol will throttlestranglekillmaim you"

Not to derail, but as someone who has algol as a reiterating theme through several family generations, and not one beheading, or anything like violent death or lives...i went looking for more depth.

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posted October 27, 2013 06:54 PM            

So have we decided an official take on Echo?

posted October 27, 2013 08:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
I know I had some other asteroids conjunct Jupiter and Echo, too, but right now I only remember Peking being one. I don't hold for Chinese Internet censorship or silencing though, no. Heaven forbid my Jupiter also being retrograde. I'm doomed for super-silence, I imagine.

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You hide it so well though.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Or is it that all that squares Saturn (in 12th house, of all things. Gasp) by 2,5-3 degrees or is conjunct Chiron the same? Or exactly inconjunct my Zeus when I also have Io exactly conjunct my Sun, Leto on ASC and Leda conj NN? Clearly all very relevant, right.

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*dizzy* So sorry, my 12H Saturn opposes my Mercury and squares my Uranus...translated, that means it takes me a long time to comprehend radical, new information.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Our aspects have slight hints of echoing each other otherwise as well though, as the solstice point of my Jupiter-Echo is 5 Virgo. My Venus is 6.57 Virgo R so there is contact between the same things for us.

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Definitely our charts echo each other, but what's a solstice point, I wonder? I'll have to look that up.

Oh and my natal Venus is at 6.35 Sag.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Culturally we're also more silent than some other people. We tolerate silence in conversations more than the constantly chattering Americans, for example.

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I didn't realize how much we Americans talk until I spent a few months living in England. I had both English and American roommates and the difference was amazing. We were so hyper compared to them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Yes, Mars also square Venus. Mutable T-square to Grand Cross (Moon 0.33 Pis, wide of a square to 9 Sag Neptune but not wide of a T-square with Moon-Mars-Venus, tied to Mars-Venus-Neptune) so your call how much all that influences my manner of going about things.

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I think squares build character. How can you have a "soul deficiency" when you've been dealing with so much inner tension and difficult circumstances all your life?

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Or is it that even retrograde, Jupiter-Echo in Aries is louder than some other sort?

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If I think, "Well, what placement of Echo, or anything actually, would be loudest?" then Jupiter and the fire signs do come to mind. (Aquarius gets an honorable mention.)

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
As to your bulldoze comment, I think it may be more lacking with something like Echo, if you take it that she has little substance or anything to take a hold of or no specific voice.

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Ha! Good point. More like she swallows everything in a silent dark cloud of nothingness, then.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
I had a post about Wikipedia somewhere but only imeanj commented so it didn't get much of a look in.
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/001776.html

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Ok, looking it up now! I'm curious.

posted October 27, 2013 08:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Had another thought. Echo reflects what other people say, but do other people see Echo reflecting them even when she doesn't?

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It's impossible to really get to the heart of the lesson when you have a "voiceless" person, Echo, as a main character in the myth, and an omniscient narrator who's not telling you how she perceives things or how others perceive her.

In real life there is no omniscient narrator, just language pooling together shared impressions from people, trying to establish what is objectively true. So, in this case, I think the best way to get the answer would be to do a scientific experiment, isolate people with prominent Echo, have them interact with people and ask everyone how it went.

The second-best approach is to have people congregate at Linda-Land, say what they think, and see if any patterns arise.

So far we've seen two Jupiter-Echo people saying a lot, not only in volume but in substance if I do say so myself, which seems to conclusively disprove that we are voiceless.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Or do they see Echo as someone without anything of her own whatever she herself thinks?

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I don't know and the nice thing is, once you know yourself, it actually doesn't matter.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Whatever Echo actually is, someone else will think that they're a complete damp squib, zero presence, no spine, no nothing in the person?

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I seriously doubt it. I never think of anyone as a complete damp squib, I don't think it's possible for that kind of person to exist, there will always be someone with enough empathy to tap into their world and see how their perceptions have come together.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
All that depending on what the aspect is, of course. Would X square Echo have the X-person reflecting their own thoughts about Echo onto the Echo person badly, or would they have a clearer view compared to X conj Echo? Which way might it work?

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Huh? What is X, a planet or a person? My own sun is square my Echo so maybe I can play all the different roles in this scenario myself! My sun thinks Echo is just fine maybe because I can tell Echo is distinct and separate from my sun (square) therefore she is not just echoing everything my sun says. Meanwhile if my sun were conjunct Echo I might really think, "Hey that weird asteroid is repeating everything I say!" not understanding that it's only like that because of the conjunction.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
If that was another possible effect with Echo, do you think it'd get multiplied even more with Jupiter making everything bigger?

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Jupiter amplifying the Echo? If Echo is just silence or nothingness, then it's already at rock bottom. I can't see how it even matters which planet it's hooked onto like a parasite, the effect being proposed is all the same: if it latches onto one of your planets, it sucks out your soul!

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
If it's the case from my first paragraph, I think the issue may be more that to help OTHER people, Echo supposedly needs to become more vocal to "help" OTHERS see that hello, existing here, stop acting as if I wasn't valid or here.

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Yes, it could be therapeutic, amplifying not only words but vibes from other people so they can hear themselves. Like one of my favorite quotes (I know, quoting is such an Echo thing!! I'll go along with THAT, sure) "A friend is someone who knows the song in your heart and will sing it back to you when you've forgotten the words."

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Don't mean to seem pissy about all that, but if the potential is that it's about other people's perceptions while Echo is internally just fine, well.

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posted October 27, 2013 09:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
*dizzy* So sorry, my 12H Saturn opposes my Mercury and squares my Uranus...translated, that means it takes me a long time to comprehend radical, new information.

I didn't realize how much we Americans talk until I spent a few months living in England. I had both English and American roommates and the difference was amazing. We were so hyper compared to them.

If I think, "Well, what placement of Echo, or anything actually, would be loudest?" then Jupiter and the fire signs do come to mind. (Aquarius gets an honorable mention.)

Btw what degree is your sun? Mine's around 15.50 Cap.

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Don't worry about the info, that was added sarcasm about everything probably making things worse still. As for supersilence, I meant more so IRL than in text or on the boards.

Where I come from we're around the same level as the Japanese in quietness stakes. So they claim at least.

Venus square Venus between us and my 4.20-ish Gemini Mars opposite your Venus. My ASC is 6.53 Leo so that's trine your Venus likewise.

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
what's a solstice point, I wonder?

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Solstice points are also known as antiscion degrees or Antiscia. Ceridwen and I have chatted about them here and there in the year or so I've been posting, but mostly in asteroid threads with no reference to them in the subject line. I think she had a post about them somewhere in the past though, under DD's name? Some say they work like conjunctions or oppositions, depending on if it's antiscia or contrascia.

My own chart has a ton of Antiscia contacts and only those finally explained why people who stayed long-term in my life all had something around 22-23 degrees Scorpio. It's the Antiscion of my DC. My Moon and Uranus are in solstice point contact, my Venus and Jupiter likewise by a degree, and my Mars and Saturn by about two degrees (Well, counting yet again, it looks a degree and 33'). A friend had their ASC at 1 Scorpio, so the antiscion of their DC hit my Sun (28.20 Leo). The antiscion of their Sun was my Chiron, and so on and so forth. I seem to really like the way the Antiscia contacts work.

The solstice point of your Venus is ~23 Capricorn and I think the minutes come to 24? 23.24 Cap? I could be off and I round the minutes up normally, 60-35 in this case for that version. It's the same with 0-29 degrees so the way they flip about you can just take the degree you natally have out of 29 and have the solstice point degree through that IMO. After a while you see them automatically, but it's likely to seem complicated now if you read about it somewhere more properly.

The s.p. of your Sun is ~14.09 Sag = my Valentine by 11'. The rest of my family has a bit of a hot spot going on around 14-16 Cancer and the only way I fit in with that pattern is through asteroids and antiscia. Or Sun/Mars midpoint maybe, but anyway.

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I think squares build character. How can you have a "soul deficiency" when you've been dealing with so much inner tension and difficult circumstances all your life?

---

I have softer aspects as well but squares are probably the most numerous aspect at my end. It'd be hard to say what something else would feel like if or when you've lived with squares all the time. Having smooth trines may only lead to questions of "Where's the fire?"?

As for my "Would X square Echo have the X-person reflecting their own thoughts about Echo onto the Echo person badly, or would they have a clearer view compared to X conj Echo?" example, I used X in place of any planet, asteroid or angle. Say Moon square Echo, ASC square Echo, Amor square Echo.

posted October 27, 2013 09:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
So far we've seen two Jupiter-Echo people saying a lot, not only in volume but in substance if I do say so myself, which seems to conclusively disprove that we are voiceless.

... ...

Yes, it could be therapeutic, amplifying not only words but vibes from other people so they can hear themselves. Like one of my favorite quotes "A friend is someone who knows the song in your heart and will sing it back to you when you've forgotten the words."

---

You're so arrogant about that assumption there. More seriously though, I discount board posts like these as anything that could say one thing or another about what I am otherwise. Text here is not the entirety of me, nor my possible silences on the boards.

I actually meant that Echo has to help others to see that she exists and other people need to stop acting as if she wasn't valid for whatever she is. Your thought is a more generous one on the nice side though, although again there's a possibility that someone who acts less agreeably gets a glimpse of that from Echo as well.

posted October 28, 2013 08:37 AM            

Interesting, and thank you~ I just looked it up on wikipedia (told you, I love it so much) and now I understand. Can't wait to map out my chart

The rest of my family has a bit of a hot spot going on around 14-16 Cancer and the only way I fit in with that pattern is through asteroids and antiscia. Or Sun/Mars midpoint maybe, but anyway.

Fascinating. Yeah, my family has a "hot spot" (love that term) at the end of Libra but nothing in my own chart matches up with it, except my sun-Saturn MP and probably some asteroids, I haven't really checked. My moon's SP would be around 11 Libra, conjunct my Pluto and my parents' composite Ceres, so that's nice, but not what I was looking for.

It'd be hard to say what something else would feel like if or when you've lived with squares all the time. Having smooth trines may only lead to questions of "Where's the fire?"?

I feel like that when I'm talking with people who have happy happy charts with nothing but positive or minor aspects: "where's the fire?" My ex soulmate was like that. A mutual friend of ours described him as having a "tragically, overly healthy life" and that's exactly what the trouble was. And my husband would have an overly wonderful chart like that, but he's spared by having a Saturn-Venus square which is hard enough to tone everything down.

His Venus is conjunct your Venus at 6 Virgo, btw. His sun's at 7 Leo. Please tell me your sun's degree? I think I already asked you ~ if you'd rather keep it private please let me know and I will stop nagging.

I'm going to have to ask what degree your Mercury is since you bring it up on the Wikipedia side. Wondering if it's near my DC for more babble, with my Mercury 16.53 Virgo trine your Sun.

Yes it is near your DC I think, it's at 5.01 Aquarius. Nice that your Mercury is trine my sun and also conjunct my Zeus and Haumea. Do you feel my Zeus on your Mercury? What's it feel like, I wonder...empowerment?

More seriously though, I discount board posts like these as anything that could say one thing or another about what I am otherwise. Text here is not the entirety of me, nor my possible silences on the boards.

So true, I was just laughing at the idea that a group vote about an asteroid decides everything about who we are, ie: "The Linda-Land jury has found your Echo-Jupiter GUILTY of soul deficiency and will sentence you to hearing snide remarks about it until you expatriate from the forum."

I actually meant that Echo has to help others to see that she exists and other people need to stop acting as if she wasn't valid for whatever she is.

Ohhhh, well that I can get on board with. I feel that's a big part of my mission in life, to let people know that I am different and yet valid all the same. Having Chiron in Aries makes it more of a challenge.

Your separate paragraph quotes make it more difficult to quote you automatically, btw. It only ever posts the last or bottom-most one of those. In this case "Right".

posted October 28, 2013 10:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
... A mutual friend of ours described him as having a "tragically, overly healthy life" ...

(Husband's) Venus is conjunct your Venus at 6 Virgo, btw. His sun's at 7 Leo. Please tell me your sun's degree?

Yes it is near your DC I think, it's at 5.01 Aquarius. Nice that your Mercury is trine my sun and also conjunct my Zeus and Haumea. Do you feel my Zeus on your Mercury? What's it feel like, I wonder...empowerment?

---

Thanks for the format change, though I was managing even with the other one. Just tons more copying. I open the reply/quote side in another tab as well and then just drop or delete whatever I don't need from the quoted portion. The main post I keep open in case I need to reference something from further up in it.

Heaven forbid people from having tragically, overly healthy lives. Being well-adjusted went out of fashion in the 50s I think.

My Sun position was in the middle of some other text further up. 28.20 Leo. As for your husband's Sun, the ASC I likewise listed further above is conjunct that I see, so I must feel like familiar energy to you based on the similarities between our charts and my chart degrees echoing (yes) your husband's energies to you?

As to Zeus, I never liked him so I'm not overly keen on the asteroid in that sense. I don't know if it'll feature strongly in my synastry sometime still though, since Io, Leda and Leto were all some of his conquests. My draconic Hera is conjunct my 24 Virgo Zeus likewise. Draco Zeus opposite my Saturn.

Also, despite Echo tying to Hera or Zeus, I don't know if we've done anything here that would particularly tie with Zeus-type things or "energies". I have no idea why Zeus would feel like "empowerment" though. To me he's an occasional hothead constantly running after other women, when not doing power trips over being the biggest and baddest god, like a Greek myth Cartman going all "Respect mah authoritah! *lightning bolt if you don't*" To some people Zeus in myths may be a positive, but I was never impressed and recognized it as trying to cow other people into line if they ever dared show hints of independence or rebellion from how he liked things. Granted, there were two previous god generations leading to people getting eaten or killed, but details, schmetails.

Your Moon's ~18 Pisces? Opposite my Mercury still and square my VX-Antivertex 19 Sag/Gem. End of Libra SPs or Antiscia move around 0-9 Pisces, if it's from 20-29 Libra. I think squares worked even with the solstice points (Ceridwen had all the reasons why, depending on which way you got your SPs), but the orbs were pretty tight since it was points only. Let's say there's something at 4-5 degrees Sag-Gem, SPs around ~24-25 Capricorn or Cancer, and a square to late Libra?

Your Mercury is also trine my Mars. I don't remember what I have at 24 Leo, btw, but know my Angel and more were at 24 Sag. Should that be a mitigating influence on Echo.

posted October 28, 2013 03:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Keela:
Ceridwen had all the reasons why, depending on which way you got your SPs), but the orbs were pretty tight since it was points only. Let's say there's something at 4-5 degrees Sag-Gem, SPs around ~24-25 Capricorn or Cancer, and a square to late Libra?

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There is an asrology school in Germany (transpersonal astrology) which works with solstice points (treats them as some kind of not so easy conjunctions), and they are using the squares to the solstice points, too.

Traditionally the squares are not used, just the solstice points themselves.
however, the solstice points are always on an axis.

Two methods exist:
Mirroring across 00 Cancer-Capricorn
MIrroring across 00 Aries - Libra

Dependeing on which mirroraxis you pick, the result will be on the opposite.

Example:

25 Sagittarius across 00 Capricorn:
5 Capricorn

25 SAgittarius across 00 Aries:
5 Cancer

Those are exactly opposite each other, always.

Like the Nodes, or Vertex or any angle for that matter they are actually not just a point, but an axis, connecting two particular points.

The square now would be on the exact midpoint of this axis, where both sort of are being bridged, or fused. That is why maybe the square could have some subtle effect.

Howerver, personally I have come to use the actual solstice points almost exclusively, both of them.

It has to do with the definition of solstice point:

"The word Solstice comes from the Latin : solstitium. . ( Sol, the Sun. sistere, to make stand. ) The Sun at the solstices is at its turning point in its apparent course and its declination remains essentially the same for three days. At the winter or summer solstices the Sun turns back towards the equator. A body on an antiscion point of another will make an exchange of energy by way of declination and its position by common relationship to the Solstice Points and the Sun's path. It could be termed a Solar Parallel.

Understand the Sun's path and the solstice points and you can understand the antiscion points for any planet. The entry of the Sun into the Cardinal signs is called the Solar Ingress. Mundane astrologers use the charts of these points as maps of minor beginnings to analyze current events.

Remember that the entry of the Sun into Cardinal signs reflect the turning points of the Sun on its path around the ecliptic. As the Sun starts on it's path in the spring at 0 Aries (around March 21) it is also at 0 degrees declination. The Sun's warmth as received by earth increases (in the Northern hemisphere) as the Sun travels through Taurus, and Gemini until it finally reaches 0' Cancer (around June 21, the summer solstice).

The summer solstice is the longest day and thereafter the days shorten until they are equal in the fall at the equinox. See Note # 3 At 0' Cancer the Sun has achieved it's maximum declination North. Traveling from 0 Aries to 0 Cancer, the Sun's declination has traveled from 0' North to 23' 27.5" North. From June 21 until September 21 the Sun is still at a northern declination, but traveling south, back to the 0' point of Libra and 0 declination.

After September 21 , when the Sun crosses 0 Libra and the equator, the declination will be South. And the Sun's declination will continue to increase in south declination until it reaches 0 Capricorn, December 21, and the winter solstice. 0 degrees of Cancer and Capricorn are called the Solstice Points. The Sun at 0 degrees Libra or 0 degrees Aries will be the same distance from these points. As the Sun moves between 0 Aries to 0 Cancer it will cover 0 to 23' 27.5" in declination moving North. On it's path back to the equator degree of 0 declination and 0 Libra , but traveling South, it will be at the SAME degree of declination, the SAME distance from the equator as it was on it's way North. Likewise, once past 0 Libra and traveling South in South declination towards 0 Capricorn and then "turning" back towards 0 Aries it will cover the same degrees of declination.

Any two points equidistant from 0 Cancer or Capricorn when the Sun would be at the SAME degree of declination north or south, though traveling in a different direction, are called the "antiscia" and also known as the solstice point positions. So 0 Aries has a solstice point of 0 Libra, 1 Aries = 29 Virgo, 2 Aries = 28 Virgo, etc. The easy way to check if the antiscia of a body is correct is to observe that the degrees will always add up to 30.

A method to visualize this concept is to draw a "natural" chart, i.e.: a chart having 0 Aries rising and 0 Capricorn on the MC. Then draw lines parallel to the Aries-Libra axis.

A planet in Aries will correspond to Virgo, Libra = Pisces Taurus will correspond to Leo, Scorpio=Aquarius Gemini will correspond to Cancer, Sagittarius=Capricorn

To find the antiscion of any planet find its longitude, for instance 10' 19" Pisces, then subtract the longitude from 30 degrees. What is left over is 19' 41". We see above that Pisces corresponds to Libra. So the antiscion will be 19' 41" Libra.

Let's look at a transit of a planet by the Sun. The concept behind the use of Antiscion Points is that a planet crossing one side of a pair of antiscia will be on a point that would be in parallel of declination were it the Sun. Let's choose Venus as an example at 6 Scorpio, ( and also 13 ' South declination) It is on a point along the Sun's path that will be triggered when the Sun reaches that same point by transit, naturally.

The Sun transit at 6 Scorpio will be at 13' S . The Sun will oppose 6' Scorpio when it is at 6 ' Taurus, ( by declination, the Sun at 13' declination North ) This will be about 6 months difference in time. The declinations will be the same but in opposite directions, thus a contraparallel. However, in February, when the Sun is at 24' Aquarius, it will also be at 13' South declination (24 degrees Aquarius is the "anti scion " or solstice point equivalent of 6 degrees Scorpio) . This would be then a parallel.

So, ANY planet that transits 24 Aquarius will be able to vibrate along the ecliptic path across to 6 Scorpio.

Note # 3: An interesting side note is that most astrologers/astronomers were from the northern latitudes and they observed the Sun's intensity in August and thus Leo is ruled by the Sun, when the Sun's heat is strongest. And it is old, tried and true astrological wisdom that any aspect that is formed is stronger in effect after it's exactitude. The Sun reaches it's maximum point in June, but the effects are seen for several months afterwards in the heat of the summer."

http://www.solsticepoint.com/1declination.htm

posted October 28, 2013 03:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
So 0 Aries has a solstice point of 0 Libra, 1 Aries = 29 Virgo, 2 Aries = 28 Virgo, etc. The easy way to check if the antiscia of a body is correct is to observe that the degrees will always add up to 30.

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posted October 28, 2013 05:08 PM            

Actually my Sun is on 25.56 Sagittarius, so my solstice acis is 4.04 Capricorn-Cancer.

BTW is this th thread you were mentioning here?

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/018644.html

posted October 28, 2013 05:29 PM            

I just stumbled across a site, where someone quoted my take on Priapus (from 2007), but did not make clear it was a quote; instead he claimed it all came from a paper he wrote.
Anyway, he posted his placements, and his Lilith-Pluto-opposition (2 Taurus-Scorpio), is not only opp./conj. my Uranus on 1 scorpio but EXACTLY on the solstice point of my true Lilith on 28 Aquarius.

posted October 28, 2013 05:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
BTW is this the thread you were mentioning here?

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posted October 28, 2013 05:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
I just stumbled across a site, where someone quoted my take on Priapus (from 2007), but did not make clear it was a quote; instead he claimed it all came from a paper he wrote.
Anyway, he posted his placements, and his Lilith-Pluto-opposition (2 Taurus-Scorpio), is not only opp./conj. my Uranus on 1 scorpio but EXACTLY on the solstice point of my true Lilith on 28 Aquarius.

Amazing how that stuff works.

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I saw your Priapus talk in the "Synastries with(out)" post. I was going to ask if you're using the h22 Priapus or just the opposite spot from Lilith when you talk about Priapus there. My BML is 22.8 Pisces and Priapus 10.43 Virgo (conj Destinn), so obviously not the opposing ends used there. I don't know what to make of my BML antiscion at 7 Libra hitting my Pluto though. Even stronger desires? Independence and change? Not sure what's what with it all.

posted October 28, 2013 06:48 PM            

I am still getting to know Lilith and Priapus, so I donīt have all the answers, but...

" I was going to ask if you're using the h22 Priapus or just the opposite spot from Lilith when you talk about Priapus there.

"
I am using the h22 Priapus, as it is the true position of the Moon perigee.
The perigee and apogee (Lilith) are not always on exactly opposing ends, but can end up in the opposing or quinkunx sign.

"2.2.4 The Interpolated or Natural Apogee and Perigee (Lilith and Priapus)
As has been said above, the osculating lunar apogee (so-called "true Lilith") is a mathematical construct which assumes that the motion of the moon is a two-body problem. This solution is obviously too simplistic. Although Kepler ellipses are a good means to describe planetary orbits, they fail with the orbit of the moon, which is strongly perturbed by the gravitational pull of the sun. This solar perturbation results in gigantic monthly oscillations in the ephemeris of the osculating apsides (the amplitude is 30 degrees). These oscillations have to be considered an artifact of the insufficient model, they do not really show a motion of the apsides.

A more sensible solution seems to be an interpolation between the real passages of the moon through its apogees and perigees. It turns out that the motions of the lunar perigee and apogee form curves of different quality and the two points are usually not in opposition to each other. They are more or less opposite points only at times when the sun is in conjunction with one of them or squares them. The amplitude of their oscillation about the mean position is 5 degrees for the apogee and 25 degrees for the perigee.

This solution has been called the "interpolated" or "realistic" apogee and perigee by Dieter Koch in his publications. Juan Revilla prefers to call them the "natural" apogee and perigee. Today, Dieter Koch would prefer the designation "natural". The designation "interpolated" is a bit misleading, because it associates something that astrologers used to do everyday in old days, when they still used to work with printed ephemerides and house tables.

Note on implementation (from Swiss Ephemeris Version 1.70 on):

Conventional interpolation algorithms do not work well in the case of the lunar apsides. The supporting points are too far away from each other in order to provide a good interpolation, the error estimation is greater than 1 degree for the perigee. Therefore, Dieter chose a different solution. He derived an "interpolation method" from the analytical lunar theory which we have in the form of moshier's lunar ephemeris. This "interpolation method" has not only the advantage that it probably makes more sense, but also that the curve and its derivation are both continuous.

Literature (in German):

- Dieter Koch, "Was ist Lilith und welche Ephemeride ist richtig", in: Meridian 1/95

- Dieter Koch and Bernhard Rindgen, "Lilith und Priapus", Frankfurt/Main, 2000. (http://www.vdhb.de/Lilith_und_Priapus/lilith_und_priapus.html)

- Juan Revilla, "The Astronomical Variants of the Lunar Apogee - Black Moon", http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/barycentric.html
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm#_Toc354497521

Probably we should be using the natural rather than the osc. LIlith then (h21 instead of h13); for me personally the difference is just minutes of orb. Hmm after checking some charts, the osc or true Lilith still resonates most strongly.

" and Priapus 10.43 Virgo (conj Destinn),"
opp my Jupiter.

"I don't know what to make of my BML antiscion at 7 Libra hitting my Pluto though"
Veiled intensity?

"My Sun's also opposite your Lilith, 'scia in touch with the 1 Sco Uranus."
That is cool. I lik ethat.

" Also need to ask you on the other side what aspects you consider valid when talking about hitting BML or the opposite point-Priapus, and then the h22 Priapus."

Every aspect that I use with the others, too.

though I am honest, when it comes to calculated points, angles and the likes I emphasize the conjunction, opposition (and square).
Researching the parallel/ contraparallel and solstice points.

However, I havenīt found the sextile or trine to be too strong in regards to these angles. I would consider them but not overwhelmingly strongly. Same for the quinkunx.

posted October 29, 2013 10:16 AM            

Ceri, I emailed you!

posted October 31, 2013 07:42 AM            

Heaven forbid people from having tragically, overly healthy lives. Being well-adjusted went out of fashion in the 50s I think.

Well the friend I mentioned had a depressive, melancholic disposition, with nothing to really attach it to. If he had a difficult life he could say why he was usually sad, but his happy wholesome parents seemed to supply him with everything one might need for psychological stability, and left him with no good excuse.

My Sun position was in the middle of some other text further up. 28.20 Leo.

Ah! I dated a guy born 8/19 for a long time.

As for your husband's Sun, the ASC I likewise listed further above is conjunct that I see, so I must feel like familiar energy to you based on the similarities between our charts and my chart degrees echoing (yes) your husband's energies to you?

Well you seem familiar...my life is full of Leos, though. Unlike some other signs, like Gemini or Virgo, where I now know almost nobody with that sun sign.

As to Zeus, I never liked him so I'm not overly keen on the asteroid in that sense.

I should have clarified that I know almost nothing about mythology so my guesswork in this forum is at best a joke. I mean I have no idea what I'm talking about...so I said "empowerment" just because Zeus is a god, and gods have power. Simple as that.

To some people Zeus in myths may be a positive, but I was never impressed and recognized it as trying to cow other people into line if they ever dared show hints of independence or rebellion from how he liked things. Granted, there were two previous god generations leading to people getting eaten or killed, but details, schmetails.

LOL! Okay I will keep that in mind...

Your Moon's ~18 Pisces? Opposite my Mercury still and square my VX-Antivertex 19 Sag/Gem.

Yup!

End of Libra SPs or Antiscia move around 0-9 Pisces, if it's from 20-29 Libra. I think squares worked even with the solstice points (Ceridwen had all the reasons why, depending on which way you got your SPs), but the orbs were pretty tight since it was points only. Let's say there's something at 4-5 degrees Sag-Gem, SPs around ~24-25 Capricorn or Cancer, and a square to late Libra?

I've got nothing major in any of those degrees, not that I can think of. My Saturn at 0 Leo squares late Libra, that's the best I can think of. But thanks for helping me look for stuff.

Your Mercury is also trine my Mars. I don't remember what I have at 24 Leo, btw, but know my Angel and more were at 24 Sag. Should that be a mitigating influence on Echo.

posted October 31, 2013 08:00 AM            

Thanks for chiming in...this clears some things up for me:

quote:

---

As the Sun moves between 0 Aries to 0 Cancer it will cover 0 to 23' 27.5" in declination moving North. On it's path back to the equator degree of 0 declination and 0 Libra , but traveling South, it will be at the SAME degree of declination, the SAME distance from the equator as it was on it's way North. Likewise, once past 0 Libra and traveling South in South declination towards 0 Capricorn and then "turning" back towards 0 Aries it will cover the same degrees of declination.

Any two points equidistant from 0 Cancer or Capricorn when the Sun would be at the SAME degree of declination north or south, though traveling in a different direction, are called the "antiscia" and also known as the solstice point positions.

---

I had hoped to be able to follow the conversation about Priapus and Lilith but it's a bit over my head for now. I've just read this:
http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Priapus

posted October 31, 2013 08:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ail221:
Well looks like we've jumped ship with the Echo interpretation? O_____o so what have you concluded Faith?

---

I am just going to **echo** what Keela said above...that it seems to me that the Echo person has to try harder to let others know she has her own voice and what's she's saying is valid.

That does apply in my case.

Also with my Jupiter-Echo in the 9H, I DO quote people a lot, especially guru types. Keela doesn't, however, so it's not a clear-cut cause and effect there.

Also, a general note, and possibly my final say on this asteroid:

No offense to Ami of course, but I can't see how her recent article on Echo applies to me whatsoever, though I have to assume she is referring to me when she talks about people who just blabber on and on, being "politically correct"...because she has leveled the latter accusation at me a few times before, and I started this thread last week when she asked me where my Echo was, out of the blue.