posted July 16, 2016 07:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gabby:
Im not saying you said that Voix! Lol, not at all, never!!
All im saying is the astrologers that see hard aspects to Nessus in a chart and immediately say the person is going to be abusive...thats so irresponsible because some ppl are here to learn how to deal with n defeat this energy, as I was.

That being said, i know the extreme power it took to defeat the energy, and because of that i can say its not something that everyone can or even want to overcome.
You want to find the fighters? Look for a very strong chart with signs that the person has a lot of empathy n a desire to find their higher purpose. Lots of Jupiter and Pluto energy, 9th or even 8th and 12th house...depending on how its used can help.

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posted July 16, 2016 07:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Astro keen:
I was informed here that my son would abuse his gf, because his Nessus was conjunct her Dsc. But nothing like that ever occurred. They parted as her career took her to a different city.

Certainly, it wasn't a nice thing to hear.

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Hi Astrokeen,
thank you for contributing more evidence that Nessus IS NOT the "asteroid of the abuser".

I'm sorry you had to experience that poison though when you expect a reading with integrity!

Please feel free to share more research, perhaps your natal placement and how you think it manifests?

posted July 16, 2016 07:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Electro DGX:
I can't say that my info on my experiences with Nessus will be accurate and/or hold any sort of usefulness considering my lack of experience with the experimentation of this asteroid, but I can give you what I will at the current point in time.

My Nessus sits in Sag at 28 degrees in the 2nd house. It is sextile Venus exact, Mars and Ascendant; square Jupiter and Trine Saturn. It is so easy for me to catch when someone is trying to brainwash me in the way of their "beliefs" so to speak that I often shut these people out of my lives. I was psychologically abused as a child and often my father tries to push his beliefs on me by telling me that I'm a christian and so forth, even though I have no desire to believe in any sort of religion. I'm also in a position where I struggle with such (homosexual whilst having a religious father), and so it only makes things more difficult.

As for the second house influence, I'm not sure how it plays out. Often I had been told many things about how "worthless" I was and often can pick up on other people's signs of self-confidence. Often ego-hungry people make me angry and can often set off a wrong nerve in my system.

Other than that, I don't know how Nessus affects me. If you don't mind, perhaps we can fiddle with how Nessus plays out like this?

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That's interesting Electro, thanks for sharing.

So your Nessus seems to teach you of how to protect your values and beliefs, possibly through direct experience of having them dominated? A very valuable lesson indeed.

posted July 16, 2016 07:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
I hadn't caught up on this whole thread when I made my comment above. Well, so we agree then.

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posted July 16, 2016 07:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Vajra:
^Astro keen,

I don't recall seeing that particular thread where you got such a response, but my general impression is that those who are especially quick to deal out fatalistic diagnoses based on some isolated random factor or aspect, when every chart is complex beyond human comprehension, really don't understand how a chart even works. It's easy to fool oneself into thinking that one is a capable astrologer if one always sticks to very vague, ambiguous, purely psychological statements. If you tell people that they've likely suffered some sort of pain in their childhood - well who hasn't? Who hasn't had some sort of issue with their parents? Many like to feel sorry for themselves at least once in a while, and it's therefore easy to make people feel they are being "understood" by using such catch phrases (or by telling them how gifted and wonderful yet misunderstood they are, that often works too).

This fact was actually used once by scientists in an attempt to discredit astrology; a purely psychological (and also, vaguely formulated in terms of concrete facts) generic chart reading for Adolf Hitler was handed out to multiple people, who were however told that this reading described their own chart, and the people overwhelmingly felt that they'd been described very well by the astrologer. Ergo, the scientists concluded, astrology is bull - random people will mostly agree with whatever you tell them about their chart if it's just vague enough, as the test clearly demonstrated.

The real test is whether someone can make concrete predictions regarding the timing of events, or the nature of specific, non-trivial, and objectively verifiable facts about someone's life history (field of education, dates of losing or gaining a job, of moving houses, of getting married, of having children, the gender of children... and so on) purely based on a chart, without knowing anything about the person from other sources. Takes a lot more work and knowledge though than just plugging in some random asteroid among thousands on astro.com and letting the computer spit out a chart wheel.

Sometimes I wish that astrologers today, as in older times, still had to calculate each chart by hand. At least this would greatly reduce the amount of bogus readings out there (and of wannabe astrologers active in the market), and most people would think twice whether to actually cast yet another chart, or whether to just use their common sense this time.

Ok, sorry, rant over.

By the way: What Astro keen describes is the main reason why I wouldn't ever post very personal queries on any forum. If the astrology of something is truly beyond me, I will then directly approach an astrologer I trust who's actually learned the craft, and I will be prepared to pay them for their effort, too.

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Totally agree Vajra.

I truly believe this is lazy astrology at best, and a power move at worst.

Astrology should have the same principles as any discipline that works with people's vulnerabilities - "First, do no harm".

I can't help thinking that the exchange of money changes everything for some.
Products become less dense, more quickly produced, and lower quality - this is the only way to make a profit!

posted July 16, 2016 07:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
my Nessus widely opposes my MErcury (3-4 degrees), I guess I tend to be like a dog with a bone, when an idea interests me. lol

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What!

posted July 16, 2016 07:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Just putting a heart out there in tribute to everyone's pain and experiences, Nessus or not...

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posted July 16, 2016 08:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Saturn8_Me:
I definitely agree with this.

Natally, I have Nessus conjunct the name asteroid that I use for my mother... I kind of agree that she is sort of manipulative/controlling/impatient with me, but It's not intentional. Our personalities are vastly different, and I think that it is hard for her to understand that everyone does not operate in the same manner that she does. She expects me to behave in the same exact manner that she would, not realizing that I am not her, and we don't share the same personality.

In synastry with mother... My DEJANIRA is conjunct my DESC-SN, which is where her natal MARS is... I do often feel oppressed by her actions... Her Mars is in her 12th so I believe that she is completely oblivious to this... Interestingly enough, just a few days ago, she told me that I had a "victims mentality", when I was simply explaining to her why I didn't do something... (y'all, I don't have a victims mentality, I am the [b]first one to take responsibility for things, even things I really didn't have any control over)... So maybe :she: sees me as a victim (or more like someone with a victim's mentality)?

On the contrary....

My NESSUS is conjunct my love interest's SUN (his ASC ruler), and his is conjunct both of our PLUTOs (his IC ruler, my ASC ruler)... (we also have more tropical/draco connections).... Let me tell you... I have never wanted something so badly in my LIFEE! That energy was so powerful, intense, and focused. Like you will be mine, that not even an option lol. & I'm normally a really chill person... I would never do anything to abuse him , and I did not force myself on him. I let him make his own decisions & would have left him alone if he was not interested (even if it did hurt).

Also... My DEJANIRA-DESC-SN-DracoJUPITER is conjunct his MC-DracoNESSUS-DracoPLUTO (all at 2-5degrees Taurus) ..... I really don't know what that means, and I'm really not that concerned either (but, maybe I should be lol).

...All-in-all, I don't believe that you can measure the morality/consciousness of a person just by looking at their chart. I honestly believe that me and my mother's situation could change, if she were aware... I for one have a lot of hard aspects in my chart, and a lot of astrological sources would probably tell people to stay away from me.. I actually consider myself to be too nice.

Also, my love interest's mother's DESC, and his father's ASC are conjunct my NESSUS. I kind of have an intense bond with both of them. I like them both, A LOT!... I always mess with him & tell him that his mother loves me more than he loves him lol.

Plus, astrological aspects can play out in a number of different ways. No one aspect or placement plays out exactly the same for everyone.

It has to do a lot with that person's background, morality, and consciousness; all of which astrology cannot measure (well at at least I don't believe it can).

Natally, I have NESSUS:
-In Scorpio, retrograde
-1st House
-Trine Saturn
-Sextile Chiron

... just my 2cents

[/B]

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That's interesting about your mother Saturn8. Rather than you BEING a victim, her Mars perceives you as one.
Well! Mars thinks he is stronger than everyone (until he meets Pluto...)

And I hear you with the Nessus synastry, I had it on my partner's ASc. - boy, did he make me hungry!!
I think in a healthy relationship with two healthy people, Nessus contacts can be expressed through passionate sex.

I'm with you on the factors that astrology can't always measure. Many things like background and morality are developments from the energies given in the chart - we simply cannot with any certainty at this stage predict how one will express those energies.
Things like impulse control, emotional instability, rage, resentment, jealousy - I see people transform these traits ALL THE TIME in my work in mental health.

So, even if the precursors to maladaptive traits can be seen in the chart, we cannot currently determine the opportunities and experiences people will have to change them, as this involves OTHER people,groups and agencies.

posted July 16, 2016 11:03 PM            

I could be totally wrong but it is just a theory

posted July 17, 2016 05:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Electro DGX:
This may sound strange, but I wonder if a possible purpose of Nessus in the natal chart is to help us realize the ways that other people can abuse us and/or try to bend us to their will, so that we can learn to fight it off in the outer world? It could possibly bring realization to the possible tactics people may employ to try to manipulate one, in which where Nessus is placed allows for us to catch it and end it immediately.

I could be totally wrong but it is just a theory

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YES!!

This is what I have been getting at.
Nessus, like Pluto can be a personal teacher.
My LEARNING how it feels to be abused in such a way, or simply having strong feelings about it, can create a persona that will fight it down in the world, and protect others.
So glad you thought this Electro - this is along exactly the same lines as I have been thinking.

My Nessus in Cancer 9H conjunct my NN.
-------- I work with the traumatised and the abused, and have done for a few years.
I am training as a psychologist, but I intend to continue working with this client group - I have known this was my lifepath since I was a child!!

----- the 9th house placement is expressed through my personal views and passions
------ the Cancer placement is expressed because most people are abused in the home and lack nurture and emotional validation In my work I try to model aspects of the healthy attachments that they missed out on - VERY Cancerian
This placement matches my path so well that it's illogical for me to think it is anything else.
(I too experienced abuse in the home, as per the placement. My lived experience certainly adds to my passion to protect others. But interestingly, in keeping with the 9th house:

I had a very stark experience on the day of my Holy Communion:

--- Just after the service all the families were in the chapel gardens talking. All the little child brides in their beautiful dresses and all the little boys in their suits and ties.
Everyone so proud and happy their children had received Christ and would be forever blessed.

---- I was on my stepfather's back (what we call a "cokey back"), my family all around me, talking and smiling, and he was ABUSING ME under my dress.
---- the beautiful dress that my Nana had lovingly and painstakingly made for me by hand.
----God was supposedly all around me, along with those supposed to do his work...

----- God died that day. I realised that neither religion nor my family could save me. The one who could save me was myself.

----- This was the beginnings of *my* AWARENESS and RESPONSIBILITY and my recognition that no matter WHO was to BLAME (hell, I could have blamed every person in the church that day who did not stop him) *I* was the only one who could own this experience and TRANSFORM it, somehow.

Again, I can see a similarity to the nature of Pluto.
----- With the right attitude and enough AWARENESS, RESPONSIBILITY, INTEGRITY and LOVE, all the darkness of this world can be transformed.

posted July 17, 2016 08:14 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
What!

You mean you are NOT a psychological abuser Ceridwen??

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posted July 17, 2016 08:17 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Electro DGX:
This may sound strange, but I wonder if a possible purpose of Nessus in the natal chart is to help us realize the ways that other people can abuse us and/or try to bend us to their will, so that we can learn to fight it off in the outer world? It could possibly bring realization to the possible tactics people may employ to try to manipulate one, in which where Nessus is placed allows for us to catch it and end it immediately.

I could be totally wrong but it is just a theory

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I have thought so, myself actually.

I mean I am SOO allergic against event he shadow of someone mentally manipulating me (or others), this really makes me mad, and there is not much that can do that!

and it just fits my Gemini-Nessus opposing Mercury so well.

posted July 17, 2016 08:23 AM              

My Nessus:
conjuncts his IC exact
opposes his Moon exact
opposes his Sun
quintile his Mars-Jupiter exact
square his Saturn (1)
square his Vertex exact

His Nessus:
quinkunx my Moon
conjunct my Saturn (1)
conjunct my Vertex (3)
biquintile my Lilith exact
trine my Juno (1)
conjunct my Eros (2)

in fact his Nessus falls onto the midpoint of my

Saturn/Vertex 1°04
Saturn / Eros 0°57

posted July 17, 2016 08:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
As for synastry, Mr Sag and me have quite some Nessus-synastry, too.

My Nessus:
conjuncts his IC exact
opposes his Moon exact
opposes his Sun
quintile his Mars-Jupiter exact
square his Saturn (1)
square his Vertex exact

His Nessus:
quinkunx my Moon
conjunct my Saturn (1)
conjunct my Vertex (3)
biquintile my Lilith exact
trine my Juno (1)
conjunct my Eros (2)

in fact his Nessus falls onto the midpoint of my

Saturn/Vertex 1°04
Saturn / Eros 0°57

Saturn and Eros are widely conjunct in my chart by about 4 degrees, in Cancer in 8th house, and as you can imagine it is not really easy having Saturn and Eros together, retro and in 8th house.
I guess his Nessus is simply forcing me to look at that and not let me keep on ignoring this particular elephant in my chart. lol

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posted July 17, 2016 09:02 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:

Anyway in a synastric context I have seen Nessus relate to that real compulsive "hunger". Like you WANT. Period. You WANT (that other person).
The problem start when you can`t get your WANT under control (as it is not really the civilized kind, more raw and untamed as centaurs are, very animalistic).
This WANT generally speaking does NOT take into consideration what the other person wants. So it would be good to have some mitigating aspects that show the Nessus person is not only WANTING, but also CARING for the other.

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posted July 17, 2016 09:13 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:

Saturn and Eros are widely conjunct in my chart by about 4 degrees, in Cancer in 8th house, and as you can imagine it is not really easy having Saturn and Eros together, retro and in 8th house.

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Omg! Hard to believe I found someone with this aspect. If you don't mind, can you go into details about what it's like to have Saturn conjunct Eros? Also, both retro? I know someone who's got Saturn Rx conjunct Eros Rx natally and I've been wondering about this aspect.

posted July 17, 2016 10:02 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Is Mr Sag your partner Ceridwen?
I would imagine that Nessus cj. IC/Moon exact would be pretty unforgettable if explored in a relationship.

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posted July 17, 2016 10:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Elysia:
Omg! Hard to believe I found someone with this aspect. If you don't mind, can you go into details about what it's like to have Saturn conjunct Eros? Also, both retro? I know someone who's got Saturn Rx conjunct Eros Rx natally and I've been wondering about this aspect.

P.S. Voix, congrats on keeping this thread open, and a big thank you for introducing this side of the topic, which generally was hard to discuss here.

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You're welcome Elysia, I am glad it is of interest to you!

posted July 20, 2016 06:57 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
There was an interesting question raised earlier in the thread - why do we leave out Hercules' role in the myth?

-- Why is it Nessus and Dejanira and not Hercules and Dejanira??

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posted July 20, 2016 12:44 PM            

Wanted to add something...just stating the obvious.

In synastry, astrology is never definitive.

We do not say:

* If his Venus is on your sun, he will love you.
* If his Mars is on your sun, he will pursue you.
* If his Juno is on your sun, he will marry you.

Likewise, we should not say:

* If his Nessus is on your XYZ, he will abuse you.

Responsible astrology recognizes itself as determining probabilities, not certainties.

And while I'm sure that very highly trained astrologers can determine probabilities to the point where they almost certainties, that high range of probability is not possible with synastry.

An astrologer can never be certain what a person will feel towards another person, and how they will treat them.

posted July 20, 2016 01:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Wanted to add something...just stating the obvious.

In synastry, astrology is never definitive.

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If only more people understood this. It's frustrating seeing interpretations that are absolute as if it is destined.

posted July 21, 2016 10:23 AM            

"I find the identification of Dejanira with "victim" too simplistic, just as Nessus is probably more than abuse. Why doesn't anyone consider asteroid Heracles in the Nessus/Dejanira scenario? He does exist too and plays a role in the myth, defending his wife and killing Nessus. And then he gets killed through his wife's trust in a centaur who'd just tried to rape her.

So, to conclude - since reading the myth first in childhood, to me this has always been a story about delusion on her part caused by being jealous and insecure (and perhaps appallingly naive), which ultimately brings destruction upon her husband and herself through her heedless action. Or to put it differently, if I'd want to find a pure embodiment of an innocent victim archetype, I'd definitely look elsewhere."

Yes, yes, yes. I often wonder myself why Heracles isn't included in these Nessus/Dejanira focused readings also... he's pretty key to the whole story/dynamic.

And the complicit victim complex, the over-trusting one, the one who does what they know they shouldn't do, who trusts the one who has shown themselves to be untrustworthy, who puts themselves in the path of danger... This aspect of the psyche, this character we play out, this Dejanira archetype, is very much a troubling, somewhat taboo (and key!) aspect of many abusive dynamics, and many relationships where one person pretends to be all pure and good and the other gets cast as the abuser/aggressor when really both are fully participating and lending energy to the whole thing.

The discourse about abuse needs to mature so that we can discuss this without somebody crying 'victim blaming,' and ending the conversation.

There is so much glorification of victimhood in our culture, in our society. There is so much duality in this whole discourse. In order to come into holistic balance with one another in relationship and friendship, the martyr syndrome which is sometimes part and parcel with a state of dedicated victimhood needs to be clearly and compassionately addressed. Often Neptune is implicated in these kinds of scenarios also, of course, and we don't need a Dejanira asteroid to alert us to the possibility of self-sacrifice which goes way too far...

I am actually currently in the process of addressing this dynamic within myself...

Having been coerced into sexual activities which I had no actual desire for from a young age (my first sexual experience was one to which I repeatedly said "no," which some people will classify as rape), I have been trained, like too many young women (especially, but of course men and non gendered people too) in our society, to think that my pain=somebody else's pleasure, to see sex as some kind of violation which I endure, to be aroused by the thought of being hurt by my partner, etc.

Of course there are healthy ways of acknowledging the desire for submission and dominance, and I'm familiar with them. I have a healthy and happy sex life, and sexual expression, but these dynamics still do enter in, and sometimes in ways which are straight up just not enjoyable in any way.

One notable factor in my current relationship is that this dynamic of "sex without ANY good feeling" for me is not really present at all. I very rarely find myself slipping back into numb-scared-victim, trying-to-please-by-acting-hurt mode.

I did so a little while ago though, and he was horrified when he found that when he asked if I was ok and I said I was, I actually was experiencing it as a replay of my old patterns in sex with partners who were truly abusive and really didn't care (those who were willing to coerce me into sex when they knew I didn't wan *** ), patterns which were basically just acting on my part, acting scared and victimized in an effort to please... the dark side of my 12th house Libra Dejanira, for SURE.

But because he had actually asked "are you OK?" that time (because I wasn't acting like myself, making weird little victim noises)... I couldn't tell myself or pretend that I had just been actually victimized when we discussed it later. Not that I would have pretended on purpose, but I would have thought to myself and been convinced that I had just been abused by an unfeeling aggressor (which has occurred in the past, obviously), when in fact any time I could have told him "this isn't good for me right now." I need to learn to do that, to stand up for myself.

Obviously I acknowledge that my training by society is something that is needful to overcome, and that it isn't easy. I have compassion for everybody who has been trained to accept a lesser position or to be hurt by others... but overcoming it can only be done if I accept responsibility for my part in it, as unconscious as it may be. It's about bringing it into the light.

His Pluto/Hygieia is conjunct my Dejanira, which is at the end of Libra in my 12th house. He is causing an upheaval and a healing of my Dejanira complex, in more dimensions than just sexual ones, and I'm very grateful for it.

He has a very prominent Nessus at 0 Leo, square his Pluto-Saturn/Mars opposition, and my ascendant, and my Dejanira.

He experienced a lot of abuse in his childhood, and I believe the chart does show that in other ways than Nessus, but it isn't surprising to see Nessus participating with that Pluto-Saturn/Mars-Mercury opposition!

He does use condescension, control tactics, and has abusive tendencies which other partners of his have called him on. Abuse is basically taking somebody's good will and openness and goodness and trust, and just walking all over them, taking power from them, indulging in being unkind and mean because you're able to do so through their openness and innocence and naivety. It's abusing the power you know you have in that situation... and it's a thing, it's a real thing. It needs to be addressed holistically...

We have Nessus conjunct Ascendant in Composite and Davison. We also have Samadhi and Fortuna conjunct Ascendant though, and others I'm probably forgetting.

I personally feel that it is possible to heal an abusive past but it requires a LOT of love and dedication if you're going to do that in concert with another person (which is probably usually necessary because this is how those patterns are revealed). We do have a lot of love and understanding in our relationship, and I know it is as hard for him as it is for me when he is so mean to me (I know that sounds ridiculous and clich�d but I honestly believe it as he is incredibly sensitive and compassionate and really doesn't want to talk to anyone like his Dad talked to him).

I feel like it's key for me to keep bringing up his past so that he can make the connections himself and not feel so guilty and resentful of his own behavior that he isn't able to own it.

posted July 22, 2016 12:42 AM            

Again, i would not pay so much attention as to what house it is in, i would pay more attention to the aspects it makes in your chart and also consider your gender as well )i think gender plays a big role in astrology and i don't want to be sexist but in a way it makes so much sense to me when dealing with mythological asteroids and planets and considering a person's background, culture, age etc.

None the less i think its also best to consider other planets and other negative and positive asteroids, astrology is a puzzle.