posted May 29, 2003 01:40 AM         

About four weeks ago, decided to go veggie almost vegan, specifically for ethical reasons. Eventually, would like to be completely free from animal-based products, but have to find out where to get non-leather shoes, etc.

Just wondering if anyone else out there is a recently converted vegetarian or vegan and what your experience has been like.

I don't miss meat at all, but I man, am I missing butter and other dairy products!

Does anyone have any groovy recipes to share?

Also, has anyone noticed that a lot of children who've been born in the last ten years or so are born vegetarians? I have an 11 year old brother who has always refused to eat meat, and an 8 year old nephew who is the same. They were both born into meat-eating my largely meat-eating family, and no one knows where they got the non-meat eating thing from. Have noticed that there are lots of other kids like this and heard similar stories. Any comments?

Thanks! Peace!

posted May 30, 2003 03:08 AM         

I hear you on the butter thing... but soon you'll discover some yummy spreads like apple butter, tofu spreads, olive tapenade, and a tiny bit of seasoned olive oil brushed on breads, pastas and vegetables is excellent! I don't even think of these as substitutions anymore, just as delicious things to do!

posted May 30, 2003 09:39 PM         

Thanks, Trillian - gotta check out the Vegan Handbook, for sure. Sounds like a good one

Hey, Ioe - yes, it's great to see so many people going veggie! And the fact that kids are doing this is a definite sign the human race is heading in the right direction. And I kinda get weepy sometimes, too, when I read the posts in Linda Land... this is a special place, full of special people

Oh, Lunargirl! Thank you for the suggestions! Can't wait to try those things you listed, especially olive tapenade... Never even thought about stuff like that <slaps forehead> doh!

Does anyone here eat margarine? I won't touch the stuff, heard that is worse for one's health than butter is, but am I wrong about this?

TTFN
toby

posted May 30, 2003 10:10 PM         

Margarine is hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oil...one of the worst things on earth! Better to eat butter.

If you are planning to be completely vegan, you'll have some work to do! Watch those tofu cream cheeses, they are often made with whey or caseinate (sp?), which are milk derivatives. If you are planning not to be vegan, just vegetarian, of course that won't matter.

And watch out for things like McDonald's french fries...not sure if they still do, but at one time they were made with beef as an ingredient...

And...here's a surprise...often white sugar is whitened with a process that uses animal bones. So some who are strictly vegan steer clear of it too, and hey, those McD's fries? They are also made with white sugar....

Just wanted to let you know there are lots of things to watch for!
Best of luck to you!

posted May 31, 2003 01:38 AM         

I used to make something called "Better Butter" from the Laurel's Kitchen cookbook, which was basically butter and vegetable oil whirled in the blender with salt, milk powder and soy lecithin (ah, the 80's! ).

tobygrrl, years back some friends and I were part of a tofu-making workshop--- over two days, we made tofu from scratch (yep, from the beans! Squeeze those cheesecloths, ladies!), then made it into: bagels, herb/nut spreads, and chocolate tofu cream pie! It's so versatile as an ingredient, you'll see! Unfortunately my boyfriend has zero respect for its flavourlessness - he calls it the Black Hole of food, and he has a point -- so when I serve it as itself, I fricassee/sauté it with something strong like black bean garlic sauce, or marinate it with lots of garlic (did I say garlic again? As in garlic? Mmmm!).

I always liked Mollie Katzen and the Moosewood cookbooks, Anna Thomas' Vegetarian Epicure series, the abovementioned Laurel's Kitchen, and someone just gave me a Vegetarian Times cookbook I have yet to go through, but the recipes in issues of the magazine have seemed interesting. But one of my all-time favourites is one called Great Vegetarian Dishes, by Kurma Dasa, from the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (Australia). My parents gave it to me after seeing Kurma Dasa on a tv cooking show, and it's stupendous! All international dishes, although I love its Indian vegetarian dishes too.

The key is to add new dishes and cooking styles, rather than try for "substitute" dishes, methinks...

Ioe, you have a lovely soul.

Hey, where's theFajita? She's an excellent cook!

posted May 31, 2003 10:38 AM         

And oh, btw...I looooove garlic. Loveitloveitloveit. I mince that stuff up into almost everything!

Black Hole of food... I like his sense of humor! And he's right, it is pretty bland stuff, it's best when it absorbs flavors from spices or other flavorings in a dish. And I'm still vacillating on my use of soy...on the one hand, I worry about its thyroid-inhibiting properties. On the other hand, take it away, and I lose a lot of the foods I eat, like veggie burgers, soy mac and cheese, etc.

Do you eat any dairy at all, Lunargirl? I do, but keep it to a minimum, maybe a dessert now and then (mmmm, chocolate cheesecake....), or a bit of cheese, but not much at all.

I have one of the Vegetarian Epicure books, I love it! Some mighty tasty dishes! I've made them for friends. Oh! That reminds me...another thing we vegetarians can learn to love is Nutritional Yeast. I even eat it on popcorn, but it can make some reasonably tasty faux cheese sauces. I even have an entire Nutritional Yeast cookbook, but there are recipes in the Vegan Handbook I mentioned in a previous post, too. I'm going to look for the one book you mentioned, Great Vegetarian Dishes. It sounds promising.

And oh...I just want to add my philosophical slant to this discussion. Before we all pat ourselves on the back too much for making the ethical choice to be vegetarians, let's remember there are no absolutes in this world. If you're a believer in the bible, even Jesus fed fish to the masses. And let's face it, in order for us to eat, _something_ must die. The distinction we make is that plants are not sentient, but if you want to consider a different way of looking at plants, check out the book _The Secret Life of Plants._
It's very difficult to live a 'pure' life, many of the products we use from cleaning supplies, to food, to medicines, have been tested on animals, too.
I think there are many paths along the road to enlightenment and kindness to the creatures of the earth is an important one. I just don't believe in absolutes.

Lunargirl, I enjoy your posts very much!

posted May 31, 2003 04:16 PM         

Also, just wanted to say that it's great to hear you are going vegetarian. The biggest thing in my experience is just the de-programming part. Seems like we get programmed to think we need meat to survive... and so much of it is just not true. If you ever feel this way, try to mentally assure your body that it more than ok, after all, we are even led to believe we need so much more food than we actually do. It also helps to read up on the facts of how much your body really does need and where you can get it. Soy, nuts, beans/all legumes, rice, other grains, seaweed, super-green foods, and many others are all great foundations for protien. I don't drink milk because I don't like it straight, but I am personally not opposed to animal products like cheese and eggs... so for me, those are options too if I ever feel like I want more protein, although I really don't like them much anyway...

Leather is an issue I took up as well. What I did with that is just decided that any new purchase would not have animal anything. So far, it has worked out well. The department stores always seem to have great non-leather options now... it is only mildly limiting, but after all, it's been a good thing because it cuts choices down for me and I desperately need that when I shop because I LOVE to shop

posted June 02, 2003 03:05 AM         

I enjoy cooking, true, but am a typical Aries -- I'm 'lazy' too, not some SuperChick who stonemills flour daily from scratch -- I've done a lot of things just once, ya know? I was never a vegan -- I found the extensive prep time and costly food just for vegetarianism alone too difficult to balance over time, and twice have fallen anemic. What has been working for me is the Eat Right For Your Type naturopathic approach, based on blood type. While I'm not an ER4YT Poster Child, giving up most cow dairy (except for a few things like mozzerella, feta and yogurt) worked marvels for me. My migraines and digestive problems went down to almost zero. I don't like eating animal, but include some fowl and fish right now to maintain my iron, as unfortunately eating an animal flesh diet seems cheaper and easier than going all-vegetarian and constantly buying big bottles of Floradix. Certainly I don't do it every day-- often my bf will cook himself a steak while we share veggies, grains and salad together (and yes, he has a marvellous sense of humour! ). One day I'd like to find a vegetarian nutritional consultant who can provide me with info on how a busy person like me (freelancer) with a fluctuating income can balance the demands of vegetarianism.

Yummy-- nutri-yeast on popcorn, I love that too! Sometimes I also sprinkle a bit of madras curry blend on top ... <drool> And because I'm a soup fan, I found a solution to wilted greens, or overabundant greens (like after a potluck dinner when the fridge is overflowing with leftovers!) -- I sometimes grab them and throw them into the blender, then add them to whatever soup I have going-- adding flavour, colour, texture and nutrients (although you have to watch bitter greens!). Or freeze it into an ice cube tray, to pop into soups and sautés later.

I think this is a great idea, but I bet some people reading this will say "Ewww! I'd never eat _her_ cooking!"

pearly - wow, that Millennium cookbook sounds good. I wonder if Aphrodite has been there-- she's in SF. Can you say more about what materials you find comfortable in non-leather shoes? I'd like to fight the brainwashing I've had about comfort and foot "health" from leather... thanx!

posted June 02, 2003 04:30 AM         

Yes, Millennium has quite the divine food... I'm thinking that I can't wait to get the cookbook, because I'm sure I could make the dishes cheaper than they do! Although it is nice to see a "serious" restaurant be successful as a vegan environment... a good sign

Your ER4YT diet sounds healthy. I am suprised though that you find being a vegetarian more expensive, as I've found that it can be much, much less. I do see your point though, because eating organic pre-prepared vegetarian food can get expensive... it's when you do alot of prep that it gets cheaper. I hate prep!...so I'm with you there I too would like to find someone who can show me how to get it together with my food habits. I know at one point what really helped me was doing prep for beans, brown rice, nuts, sauces, and fruits/veggies (btw-I LOVE soups too!) for the entire week on Sunday and then keeping it all in containers so it was there to heat up or eat when I needed it and I could add to it if I wanted. You know, it's interesting, but food can take on a very simple vibe if you let it... where it becomes almost non-important in the way that you only eat what you need for nutrition... I kind of like it like that as it feels very healthy... hmmm, ah well, just reminiscing on simpler times now as these days I am take-out queen!

Anyway, about shoes- I LOVE shoes! So, since I won't do animal, I tend to buy mostly canvas, cotton, wool(which is generally not something I'm against, although I've heard stories about them shaving sheep in the winter which is so abusive... but I don't believe all wool producers do this sort of thing) rubber, nylon, wood, reed, foam, and then of course, other synthetics.

I've found great heels made of high-quality, really pretty wood body with nylon or cotton "soles" and straps. I have found designer-looking sturdy canvas-type boots. I have sandals that are basket-like rope/reed material, I love foam and nylon for flip-flops, and then I have some shoes that are made from man-made material that is similar in form/feel to leather.... a synthetic. I have heard much about the use of synthetics not being an ideal choice... could be true, not sure. And I also am aware that there is literally TONS of "leather" available from the fact we have a HUGE meat industry... so I've often thought, "why not utilize it at least?" Yet I found many flaws in that for myself, the biggest being the fact that people don't need to eat the amount of meat they eat, if even at all... so we shouln't even have all the surplus skin in the first place. By using it just because it's there, I am in a small way contributing to this "second-market" and basically condoning what I think is not necessarily the best thing. I am not really political about it and everyone around me eats meat, so I do it more as a spiritual thing for my own progress.... hope that makes sense. Anyway, good to talk to you! G'nite

posted June 02, 2003 09:27 AM         

They have to be

(a)-not leather,and vigorously checked to see if ANY part of them is suede or leather

there you go-that's made the task nearly impossible right away

(b)not made by certain companies who I know to be unethical including some sports companies

(c)not have a heel as I dont ever wear heels

(d)size eight-"oh no sorry,we haven't got size eight at the moment"

(e)comfortable

and lastly

(f)I have to like the way I look

I have spent literally hours pounding pavements close to tears,it is a NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE task for me.

The only tip I've found is to have some spare cash to buy any suitable shoes you find there on the spot,even if only for the future

ps-I've found once you actually have strongly made the commitment not to buy leather it becomes easier,you just get used to picking up the shoe,putting it back down and saying NO,it becomes a HABIT,(like lots of other things),it takes just a bit of a push to get into a GOOD HABIT
and vice versa
to rid yourself of a bad HABIT,

posted June 05, 2003 01:54 AM         

I was struck by you saying...

quote:

---

...food can take on a very simple vibe if you let it... where it becomes almost non-important in the way that you only eat what you need for nutrition...

---

And the shoes... oh the shoes... ah... thanks too!! Great tips!

And Mazz... good for you, I get that-- especially since I now have a beautiful size 11W foot to have shod (that's about a 42 in Euro sizes). I hope to heck my feet have reached their maximum size. If they meet my criteria, they fit, and are comfortable, I buy at least two pairs, maybe more if there are several colours. And I still wear them into the ground before I find another pair, or set. So I'll set out on my leatherless journey and see what I can find, but I am not going back to the years when all I wore was running shoes/trainers (mostly made in sweatshops anyway). Anyhow enough complaints about my feet.

posted June 05, 2003 03:22 AM         

Haven't thought about it in so long that I'm not sure what I'm leaving out, but non-animal proteins include: tofu, t.v.p. (textured vegetable protein), seitan, tempeh, and nuts.

Protein useability in all soy rises when combined with grains, such as rice, corn, bulgar, couscous. Here's a handy explanation from The More With Less Cookbook, a Mennonite cookbook (from Bantam):

quote:

---

One-half cup cooked white beans has seven grams protein, the same as a whole egg. A half cup of soybeans has eleven grams. Granted the egg has higher quality protein, but by eating beans together with grains (rice or whole grain bread) the quality or usability of protein in both the beans and the grain improve significantly. For a meatless high-protein meal, baked beans and whole grain bread are an excellent choice.

---

I also like to toast up a bunch of shelled, unsalted sunflower seeds, almonds or walnuts for variety, ready to sprinkle on dishes or mix in. They're yummy and less expensive than pignolia nuts (pinenuts).

posted June 10, 2003 01:15 AM         

Mazz, when you said: "once you actually have strongly made the commitment not to buy leather it becomes easier,you just get used to picking up the shoe,putting it back down and saying NO,it becomes a HABIT"... that is so right! and I too have found that buying at the time you see a do-able pair is the best way. It's hard to do it if it's not in the budget yet it does seem to be a good solution as you never can tell when there will be something that is right. I also tend to buy more classic or simple styles so that my shoes don't leave with the trends and I have to take on the task of finding new ones again

Lunargirl, thanks for the info. I also really got alot out of a link you left somewhere here on apple cider vinegar You know, all of this has inspired me to simplify my eating again, as I've gotten pretty off track... I absolutely love the way I feel when eating simply... so thanks for re-minding me!

Anyway, take care... lots of love and light to you both

posted June 11, 2003 12:17 PM         

TheVegetarianSite.com

herbivoreclothing.com
www.snootyjewelry.com

veganmercantile.com
www.veganmart.com
www.mooshoes.com
www.veganessentials.com

ecochoices.com

and the BEST vegan cookies I've ever had are from the Alternative Baking Co., www.alternativebaking.com

posted June 19, 2003 01:21 AM         

pearly -- yes, that was on Aphrodite's thread "Advice" -- I've not tried apple cider vinegar myself-- I take it you have?

Mazz -- sole sisters with me and pearly.

All right, here's my veg/vegan Tip of the Week: the least gas-producing legume of them all, is the humble yet attractive and tasty aduki bean -- sometimes written "adzuki", "azuki" or "adjuki". Looks like a dark red baby kidney bean, but a little rounder. Let's face it, certain legumes are harder to er, digest. Little Aduki will keep you popular, if you combine him with some nice grains, and get some exercise too!

In the Laurel's Kitchen cookbook they describe beans as the perfect food for breakfast -- lots of fuel for the day, and all day to work off the er, intensity.

I throw some soaked-overnight adukis (drained then rinsed!) into a crock pot with some water, onion, garlic, bay leaves and olive oil, turn the crockpot on high (setting 2, for me) and let it come to a boil for about 1-2 hours, then turn it down to the lowest setting (1) then go away for hours and let it slow-boil/cook. About two hours before dinner I add more veg and adjust seasoning; you can even open up a package of taco seasoning and use some of that; very yummy. I usually throw in dried cumin and lots of fresh chopped coriander (cilantro), peppers (mild and/or hot), mushrooms, celery, carrots, whatever I've got on hand except zucchini (which, like mushrooms, can go kinda slimy. Some people have a 'texture' thing, ya know?). I don't use a lot of salt but sometimes I throw in some veg soup stock into the pot (i.e. veg Oxo cubes, which are presalted), or I adjust for it at the end if necessary -- or, sometimes I toss in a little chunk of miso (a salty bean paste that's like a soya sauce concentrate).

Freezes nicely, too.

So Mote it Bean,

posted June 19, 2003 01:18 PM         

Switching to beans takes time for the digestive system to adapt, and also to get the bean/grain ratios right. It took me about 2 years, back when I was a full vegetarian. After that I noticed that when I did ingest meat of some kind (special meat meal prepared by an uninformed dear relative!), that it upset my digestion worse than beans once did! I also think it has to do with size of serving -- people are used to huge servings of animal, and well, if you try to substitute equal-sized portions of beany foods, trouble results! I haven't quite figured it all out yet. Finally, I'm a proponent of the Peter D'adamo Eat Right For Your Type theories based on bloodtype -- some people _need_ meat to thrive, others don't, or need less. Thus I see the bean thang as part habit, part biological preference, part social choice.

You can use plain soymilk to make cream sauces -- they work just fine, and have a nice texture. I've done a portabella stroganoff that way. I just thicken it the same way I would milk or cream.

As for it being hard to find recipes that work for you, I find that the whole veg/vegan cooking style is an entirely different diet -- as different from typical North American cooking as is California-style or macobiotic cooking. Browse your local secondhand bookstore, and you will find a ton of recipe books. Lots on the 'Net, too.