posted October 02, 2012 12:44 AM            

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Originally posted by Venus:
family, love etc.. yes i agree.

but that moment you start to think about your mortality, and the mortality of the ones you love, when you lose one of them, or think about losing them, then what? what sense is there to live in a world where we wither away to non existance? us and the ones we love. i can't live in that world..

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posted October 02, 2012 12:54 AM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
We will always have sorrow and the need to link with a higher power. Hence, we will always have religion.

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Agreed, just one that doesnt beat us up!
I look at it this way...God is like the moon...God loves through kindness, nurturing respect for who we are and what we need, God's love lifts us to new places, encourages us to change by giving us the strength to accept were not perfect but we still worthy of love, with unconditional love we are strong enough to overcome the things we don't like because we are accepted, we can be vulnerable and open because we know we wont be hurt...thats when change and growth happen!

Religion is like pluto....it rips through you and as your at your most vulnerable and in pain...it knocks you down again...then when everything has been torn up and your standing there alone and hurt, in pieces of your former self, you have no choice but to start picking the pieces and try to make something better from it or you die under the stress!

posted October 02, 2012 12:56 AM            

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
Any religion that has externalized their god/path to self salvation is completely doomed by its design

The Neo-Platonics made that quite clear oh... about 2000 years ago, too bad few listened! Guess we just get to watch them self implode/rapture at this point, fun

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posted October 04, 2012 05:04 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
Pluto might rule religion.

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posted October 06, 2012 07:11 PM            

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Originally posted by MillyX:
I hope so but I think that some people will continue to stay in their religion. I know my family would because they fear the unknown, life without God. I on the other hand want to break away from religion. I am currently planning on leaving. It has caused me so much emotional and mental trauma, I can't deal with their manipulation no more. When you feel more fear then love, that's when you know that it's time to go. Anyways, can't wait for the shift that will soon take place

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I think you made a great point...people think religion equals God and without religion there is no God, we just need to help people see God isnt in religion hes in us...we have God no matter if we are or arent part of an organized group choosing to share their beliefs with others.

posted October 08, 2012 05:58 AM            

Personally, I like the sense of community with organized religion, and the fellowship. You can't get that on your own. Yes, there are times when my own community (the one that I belong to now) has frustrated me, times when I felt like giving up, but, ultimately, I feel that this group has made a positive rather than negative difference in my life. I also like the structure. Organization allows for things to get done and for more people to be reached (I'm thinking of ministries, such as feeding the hungry or helping the homeless).

posted October 08, 2012 02:17 PM            

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
I'll reiterate that I do not believe that it's religion itself that is the problem, but how some people practice it and abuse it.

Personally, I like the sense of community with organized religion, and the fellowship. You can't get that on your own. Yes, there are times when my own community (the one that I belong to now) has frustrated me, times when I felt like giving up, but, ultimately, I feel that this group has made a positive rather than negative difference in my life. I also like the structure. Organization allows for things to get done and for more people to be reached (I'm thinking of ministries, such as feeding the hungry or helping the homeless).

NOT every group is "bad" or "evil". Religion itself is neutral. It's how one lives it out that can be good, bad, or also neutral.

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posted October 08, 2012 04:37 PM            

Religion can be bad because it bypasses reason. "God says it, I believe it, that settles it." And that allows for all kinds of badness (I do blame Nazi Germany in part to their Lutheran upbringing, btw). Even the kindly Christians are at a disadvantage. And in any case Christianity came to dominate much of the world through vile and ruthless acts. If you're glad you're a Christian and believe it's the only path to salvation then by all means thank all those soldiers, tyrants, torturers, inquisitors, executioners, mass murderers, and all the other villains (many who make Jim Jones look like a harmless bunny) who are responsible for you being a Christian today.

posted October 08, 2012 05:13 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Ministries that help often, like the Nazis who did the same, put restrictions on who gets help and who doesn't, sometimes even officially. And if we're gonna say religion is good because sometimes they help people then let's not forget the Manson family and Jim Jones cult who also aided the less fortunate (Jim Jones was said to have holy powers who cured people with cancer, etc, as well).

Religion can be bad because it bypasses reason. "God says it, I believe it, that settles it." And that allows for all kinds of badness (I do blame Nazi Germany in part to their Lutheran upbringing, btw). Even the kindly Christians are at a disadvantage. And in any case Christianity came to dominate much of the world through vile and ruthless acts. If you're glad you're a Christian and believe it's the only path to salvation then by all means thank all those soldiers, tyrants, torturers, inquisitors, executioners, mass murderers, and all the other villains (many who make Jim Jones look like a harmless bunny) who are responsible for you being a Christian today.

What worries me is that enough people who think Christianity (or similar religion) is the ONLY path to salvation will ultimately lead people feeling justified in doing whatever it takes to "save" the world. I mean if parents were going to let their kids burn because it's tradition you'd want the government to stop it, right? So why not if parents are going to let their kids burn ETERNALLY?

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posted October 09, 2012 07:56 AM            

Some institutions do use their organization for good, and are not judgmental or hateful.

Yes, there are some religions that are outright harmful, some I'd go as far as to call "toxic" (like Aum Shinrikyo); however, not ALL are like that. It's not far to paint them all with the same brush.

Not ALL organized religions hurt people. Some do, some don't.

Personally, I can tell you that a fair number of people on the 'sane' side of the Christian community do not approve of the hateful types of Christians.

Again, what's needed is distinction, and not to lump all people together.

Simply put, there are good Christians, bad Christians, Christians in-between.

No sane or reasonable Christian that I know believes that they have the right to harm non-Christians, or that they'd be justified in doing that. Frankly, most Christians that I know believe that those people are nuts at best.

I do think that distinctions need to be made here.

posted October 09, 2012 04:14 PM            

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Not ALL organized religions hurt people. Some do, some don't.

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(This is a general statement, not aimed at you RP)

Christianity most certainly has hurt people

While Aum Shinrikyo were nuts, So was the Spanish Inquisition, yet both happened and both had to do with organized religion/cults at its core...

While I wouldn't go so far as to call WW2 a religion based war, Religion was most certainly used as a crux/rally point... bah!

Are there example atrocities that do not have a religious overtone? Oh sure. But the ratio and the scale is doublets anywhere near the ones linked to Religion.

By that simple deduction alone, Religion's irrational nature is fraking dangerous to humanity as whole

Id feel safer with Godless heathens any-day! At least they accept responsibility for their own actions, that I can handle.

-Slams Desk-

I wouldn't ban religion if I had the power to do so, I would however insist it be cast to the same genre as Starwars Conventions: "For Entertainment Purposes Only", not to be taken seriously as such leads to detachment from reality.

posted October 09, 2012 06:19 PM            

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
No sane or reasonable Christian that I know believes that they have the right to harm non-Christians, or that they'd be justified in doing that. Frankly, most Christians that I know believe that those people are nuts at best

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The important part is that you personally know. Yet look at Westboro Baptist. After a decade of being hateful they were ignored. It was only when they thanked God for 9/11 and dead soldiers that Christendom said "they're not with us."

So where are those same Christians when Westboro only went after the gays? Or the Christians that are against gays being protected by hate crime laws and blaming victims of hate crimes for being too out? Where are the Christians that don't speak out as powerful fundies in America (including one who gave the prayer at Obama's inauguration) get bills passed in Africa to kill gays (as well as prohibit life saving condoms, etc)? What about for "religious exemption" laws that allow child abuse?

Nobody associates Westboro or Jim Jones or the Branch Davidians with mainstream Christianity...because Christianity made it clear those people weren't with them. Thus they have the power...so use it, or accept the just condemnation of your mainstream version of religion.

If you never heard of these things, would it matter if I were to link to some examples? Or would it "not matter"? Even though these people are a clear majority with a lot of political clout in America and abroad?

Saying because most of them aren't destroying their own lives to carry out their hateful beliefs (but passively support others who do and laws that accomplish the same thing) means that most are good, kind people is as naive as saying because most racists don't burn cross or lynch people of another race means racism is rare in the extreme.

posted October 09, 2012 06:34 PM            

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
I do think that distinctions need to be made here

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People need to take responsibility for their actions. Every time someone says "We won't stand up to these people though we can, we'll continue to give our money to churches that protect child molesters and get people killed," and all that but then say "I don't personally do that so it's not my fault" really need to take responsibility.

The fact that some individuals have a superior sense of right and wrong that they don't allow their religion to hijack doesn't excuse those religions. Whether they act as individuals or enough grow in number to drag their church kicking & screaming into a more civilized age means they're good IN SPITE OF their religion, not because of it. (Btw, Huck Finn got banned from my school library because some fundie group didn't like the part of Huck deciding he'd burn in hell rather than pray for forgiveness for "stealing" the slave Jim and they feared that might inspire us to decide for ourselves what's right or wrong rather than depending on the Bible and thus be "unaccountable" to them).

posted October 09, 2012 06:35 PM            

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
Religion also gives, as I said, a sense of community. Being in a community helps people to hold you accountable.

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Yep, like all those kids who commit suicide because the Bible doesn't like gays, or children who are abused (sometimes in Christian centers, want me to post a link to one such example that's protected by "religious exemption" laws from child abuse investigation?), or who are literally tortured for being gay. Some of those raised in an otherwise loving Christian home actually went to kill themselves (I'm sure many do, but we don't hear their stories save in very rare circumstances) because they were held accountable for how God created them. And it's not just them, even Wiccan and goth kids have been driven to suicide by Christian bullying that was allowed by the school (who probably felt the kids needed to accept Jesus anyway). And in the past it was racial injustice, etc.

So yes, we know Christianity holds people accountable in a community. But who holds Christianity accountable?

Granted, there are other options besides religion to bond people together in community (and unlike Christianity & Islam they were created by peaceful means). But these other community bonding organizations (such as schools and campuses) are often tainted by religious intolerance and worse so that they're worse than they otherwise would be.

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
Working together to feed the hungry or raise money to give to people who need it is powerful. Being able to connect to others spiritually is powerful. You cannot fully experience those things on your own, not to that degree or depth.

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posted October 09, 2012 07:13 PM            

Here is religions main problem:

Always has, and always will be used to control those who do not want to take responsibility for there own actions or sense of morality

Weak willed individuals who will accept commands from a "Spiritual Authority" figure head, or group: "Herd Mentality";

Recipe for disaster!

As proven time and time again...

If people cant make personal moral judgments or use logic and reason to make the best decision in a given situation, without consulting an external spiritual commander/herd-group/Book... Then those people are mentally unstable and dangerous in my opinion!

Religion IS a danger to the stability of humanity, and borderline "Evil" (as many of the instances that Pixie has alluded too most certainly fall into that category) by its design.

Bah!

posted October 10, 2012 01:36 AM            

What I do think is going to continue changing is that more people will seek their own solitary spiritual and or religious path (I do think it is possible to be religious by oneself.

More people will be unsatisfied with the old organized religions and form new traditions, or break away all together. People will become more empowered as they realize it is possible to invoke a spiritual connection by oneself, without a clergy person acting as the go between. At least this is how I think things will go =)

Astrologically speaking, I read a very interesting article about the last couple of times Pluto was in Capricorn (transformation of the establishment). These last visits of Pluto in Capricorn coincided with the American Revolution, and Martin Luther's protests against the Catholic Church which sparked the protestant reformation in Europe.

posted October 10, 2012 04:21 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PhoenixFire:
I think people will continue to look for something to believe in, with or without, within or outside of organized religion.

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posted October 10, 2012 01:29 PM            

Anything else is just insanity...

posted October 10, 2012 08:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PhoenixFire:
I think people will continue to look for something to believe in, with or without, within or outside of organized religion.

What I do think is going to continue changing is that more people will seek their own solitary spiritual and or religious path (I do think it is possible to be religious by oneself.

More people will be unsatisfied with the old organized religions and form new traditions, or break away all together. People will become more empowered as they realize it is possible to invoke a spiritual connection by oneself, without a clergy person acting as the go between. At least this is how I think things will go =)

Astrologically speaking, I read a very interesting article about the last couple of times Pluto was in Capricorn (transformation of the establishment). These last visits of Pluto in Capricorn coincided with the American Revolution, and Martin Luther's protests against the Catholic Church which sparked the protestant reformation in Europe.

I will search for the link if anyone is interested, it was a fascinating link and inspires thoughts of wondering where the world will stand when Pluto ends this current transit in Capricorn. Economic changes are certainly apparent, but it will be interesting if there are massive religious changes as well.

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posted October 10, 2012 09:11 PM              

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Originally posted by PhoenixFire:
I think people will continue to look for something to believe in, with or without, within or outside of organized religion.

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People, or humanity will continue to search for something to believe in outside of themselves until they realize, they hold within them all the belief they need, which is an unwavering belief in themselves and hopefully the human evolutionary potential. Are we as a human race that insecure? There is a huge universe outside of the walls of this planet that we can't even begin to fathom, we're not alone, it's never been just us in the universe. Yet we spend our days trying to find salvation in the form of a false deity or corrupt spiritual belief system. We vehemently stand by our beliefs, without any proof besides ancient texts that might as well be fantasy fiction laced with hypocrisy. And we never once turn to ourselves for the answers we so desperately seek.

How about we stop the man/woman hunt for false prophets. You don't need religion to bring people together, or to unite humanity, all you need is an understanding of yourself as a human being and your place in the universe. It's not up to some spiritual or religious doctrine to outline how we should live with one another. Unity cuts through biases, through adversity and distinctions. It's easy to come together because of shared beliefs in some corrupt belief system, but it takes sacrifice and acceptance to unite with others who are nothing like you. That's unity and that's love. As a human race we haven't reached that yet, and we are miles away from achieving it, if we ever do. Because humanity has been completely brain washed with its compulsive dependency on orthodoxy and religion. It's shameful to behold, really. Get a grip Planet Earth, and wake up!