posted October 15, 2002 12:43 PM              

When I was that age, I had a lot of ideas that didn't really seem to have a source; they were just there. I also thought that when I was asleep I was really awake and that when I was awake I was dreaming, because my logic went that before we were born we were really alive (and that's where we went when we slept) and that life was a dream that we all participated in. I actually remember going through working that last part out in my mind when I was eight - "If we're all dreaming this, then how do we interact? Oh, we're all dreaming at the same time and making it all true, that's how."
Sometimes I think that I'm "remembering in hindsight" - that is, that I'm attributing these thoughts to my young self now that I'm older - but my pop remembers the first convo, and my Mom assures me that I really did spout off with such silly things.
But I digress -

So, I think that I kind of still think what I did when I was younger, although perhaps a bit better articulated and developed (or not) -
We have free will, but mostly because we've - at some point, not necessarily "here" - decided what we'd like to be done and learned.
Wow - I'm making little sense, and I'm about to start making less...heck, I'll go whole hog and make none:
*We (and it's "We" that I'm talking about, not the "we" that's here) have free will, although the "game plan" for this life is pretty set.
*Time exists in that we concieve of it, but it really, truly isn't the way of things.
*Astrology is valid (as are many other ways of seeing the state of things) because we both reflect and are reflected in all of the rest of existence. We are in the stars as much as the stars are in us.

Eh, that's about all that's coming out right now.

posted October 15, 2002 01:27 PM            

I couldn't have said it better myself, Proxieme! Right or wrong, I do totally agree.

posted October 15, 2002 01:33 PM              

What is Free will? It's each person's special ability to overcome or atleast smooth the way through the challenges in each one's natal chart or 'Destiny'.

How does it relate to astrology? It is what will never allow Astrology to be a hundred percent predictive because it is the one variable that doesn't show up in a chart as far as we know.

Karma and reincarnation? You reincarnate into the circumstances that will best help you balance your karma.
This is where your Higher Self comes in. That's the bit of you that knows what's best for you, and if the medicine is nasty, well then, s/he loves you so much that s/he'll hold back the tears while your bawling your eyes out complaining about how bitter it tastes. But swallow you WILL! A bit like Pappy Saturn?

But like Pappy only if you're naughty. S/he can be cheerful and helpful like the Sun if you choose.
If you're good about your medicine, then s/he'll show you ways to make it taste better. Add a little honey..err apple juice concentrate (just a little H&H joke, eh Nebel? ), a dash of cinnamon, and lots of whatever other yummy stuff you love, and it doesn't taste half as bad anymore!
And if you're REALLY good, and s/he decides you're strong enough on your own now, s/he won't make you take the medicine anymore. FREE WILL. DON'T TAKE THE MEDICINE.

So Free will is a lot about tuning in to your Higher Self; who can choose to side with reincarnation and karma if you like life to stink, or to side with Free Will and your conscious desire to figure out what the lesson of your life is and then transcend it.

I think 'Fate' and 'Destiny' are fine as long as we are talking about certain circumstances that we are presented with in accordance with what we have set ourselves before we reincarnate, like meeting a particular person we have something to learn from at a particular point in life. But using them as excuses to stagnate is only making it harder for ourselves. Remember HS?? If s/he has to administer a large dose to get you moving, s/he'll do it come hell or high water.

How does time fit in? I don't think it does. It doesn't really fit in anywhere. I may be reaping karma now for something I did in the 27th century. No beginning, no end.

posted October 15, 2002 02:26 PM              

I believe that we determined a "Plan" for our life on earth.
In my opinion, Destiny is a "Plan" that we developed for ourselves before we reincarnated and we can put that "Plan" on a paper using Astrology.
Karma, is what we cannot change, and for consequence it is predetermined:
our parents, the place where we were born and some disease that we have when we born. The whole rest depends on our Free will and besides we can change the plan completely written by us before we reincarnated. For better or for worse.

For me all the "mysteries" are interlinked, Astrology, Numerology, Black Holes, Quantum Physics, The pyramids, the Oracles (Tarot, Runes etc), the teachings of the oriental religions, the teachings of the Old Testament, Jesus' teachings... finally, everything fits, everything is completed.
I studied several religions, that seemingly didn't have anything in common but revealed extremely similar after I understood them.
Therefore everything takes to a same direction, the development of us as human beings in particular and of the humanity in general.

The human being has to be seen as a whole, which we called humanity,and the humanity has a larger purpose, that I don't know which is.

But, as an orchestra, each one of us has our part to accomplish.
This orchestra was determined by a larger force, that each one of us gives a name.
I refer to Him as God, The Creator,that -with certain intimacy -I call Father.

We should remind that our goal should be the search of the maturity.
And it's for that that we learn, that we chose things, that we took a risk or that we closed inside of the social formalism trying to flee of the pain of growth.

Life always moves to that objective and pushes us when we are not capable to proceed ahead. In my opinion the fundamental is that our destiny is happiness, the shortcuts that we chose to use doesn't matter. One day we will understand that the badly, the pain and the sadness are illusory. They are learning phases. Moments of reflection.

A lot of times we strayed so much of our "Main Plan" that life acts for us.
Sometimes everything "seems" well. Life is calm …and comes the boredom, the anxiety, anguish. Life seems empty and without sense. And when that need becomes very strong, sometimes we acted by an impulse, abandoning our comfortable posture, leaving for new and even surprising situations.

If the person doesn't make that, life will act for her. It will make the necessary changes that the person didn't have courage of doing, but her "soul" wanted.

The faith in spirituality supports,consoles, explains.
However, what moves the facts in our life and modifies them, are our deep faiths and our attitudes. First, it is necessary "to be" to "have", it is necessary "to feel" to "do", to "irradiate" to "attract". Without noticing the true things of life, without seeing the light, the beauty, how we will attract them into our life?

How to be courageous and free, fearing the future ?
How to develop our talents and potentials , if we thought that we are limited and unable ?
Victims don't exist. The mistake is part of learning and we all should learn.Only the experience can mature us. It is necessary to trust and to know that when something needs to happen and it is ripe enough, nobody will get to stop.
It happens in spite of us, through us, or even without our intervention.

Jaqueline

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.
But the opposite of a profound truth may be another profound truth."
Niels Bohr

posted October 15, 2002 02:32 PM              

To me, it's kinda like how I explained time. To us - right here, right now - we have it because it seems to us that we have it, even though (in my line of thought - again, only my opinion) the choices that we're presented with and make aren't really "free" to us in the strictest sense of the word b/c We've (notice the capital "W") already pretty much set things out.

Eh, it was so much clearer in my head.

posted October 15, 2002 03:40 PM            

Stella, due to this being a private Forum, it is created over and over again (for security reasons), so you can't view the other Posts (unless I can find a way to fix it).

posted October 15, 2002 05:10 PM              

Karma is a universal law that governs energy that attracts particular people/places/events to us as a result of our free-will behavior in previous incarnations. This lifetime is another opportunity to exercise our free-will to "balance" the energy. Astrology is a valuable tool in getting to know ourselves and others more deeply, and it is also helpful in anticipating and preparing for events. Are we "locked into" our birth charts? Of course not - that is no kind of tool! Our charts suggest personality tendencies, and only by being of aware of these tendencies, can we exercise our free-will and change them, or capitalize on them, whichever we choose. Ditto for astrology as a prediction tool - it can prepare us for certain types of events and we can choose to act accordingly.

Since our birth charts can predict types of events that we will tend to attract into our lives, the law of Synchronicity says that clues from our previous incarnations may be discovered there (past lives and birth charts are not independent).

posted October 15, 2002 05:37 PM              

I think, like most people here, that we decide before we are born that there are lessons to learn. When we are born we forget what those lessons are but we attract certain people and situations in life to kick start us along the road to becoming ourselves. Our birth charts show us what our strength and weaknesses are so it is up to us to utilise what we know to make choices. When a choice has been made, then that is the path that we follow. If we carry on without thought then disasters or good things can happen but we don't grow as people. If we think about things and observe other people as well, it can help in making an informed choice. Along the way there are times when we might see a message or someone may say something which can suddenly alter the way we feel/think which in turn takes us down an alternative path. Illness is something else that helps us look at our lives, and shows us whether we are prepared to be responsible for our own health or hand it over to someone else to decide how we deal with it. Karma is the reward of the actions we take. Good or bad. (Do we take responsibility for our actions or is it easier to say it is fate so don't have to make an effort to change.)

Most of all I think it comes down to perception. How we decide to look at life, be able to give help if we can without always giving or expecting thanks, accept help when we need it without constantly taking, and accepting ourselves as we are but willing to make changes to become better.

posted October 15, 2002 11:49 PM              

Anyway, I beleive that through Numerology, Astrology and the like, these tools enable us to see the dynamics that we have to work with. Positive AND Negative.

I think free will is an awesome gift that allows us to see the consequences of our decisions, through the things that have manifested in our lives.

Karma, I believe, is the direct result of those decisions made in the past, whether good or bad, enabling us to 'learn' and hopefully choose more wisely in the future.

posted October 16, 2002 12:45 AM              

i don't think there is a way you can alter events that are going to happen to you unless you are psychic (or connect with your Higher Self and guides) and make the necessary changes beforehand

------------------
The incarnating soul reveiws a finite number of potential horoscopes and picks one that fits its plan the most. The chosen horoscope is embodied into his spirit before physical birth and later physical birth results.

quote:

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"An astrologer would have cast a horoscope for the physical birth. The soul would have reviewed and picked a horoscope cast for the spiritual birth."

- Edgar Cayce's Astrological Revelations

---

posted October 16, 2002 01:05 AM              

I think there is a 'God' (Not necesarily as typified by any established religion).

I believe that 'God' is ultimatly benevolent and is looking out both for humans and the earth's best interests, not neccesarily with preference for either one. I think everything has a purpose and ultimately strives to fufill it, knowingly or more commonly unknowingly. I think Fate are the situations that 'God' creates to encourage the Earth and Humans to fufill their destinies through choices they are forced to make, possibly in order to fufill his own purpose (Am I getting too esoteric?)

I do not think every choice is contrived in this manner.

I do think that some choices only have one correct answer, and that if we choose wrong we will be granted different experiences but ultimatly be brought back to the same crossroads again.

I think there is always more we can do or could have done and our work doesn't neccesarily ever end.

I think after death we join some sort of collective, possibly becoming part of 'God' but that we retain our knowledge and experiences and some (or all) of the traits we have as a result of them. I believe that in the end we commit the resources we have garnered through our time here to solve or help evolve ever growing puzzles, until we become universes unto ourselves.

I'm not sure if I belive in reincarnation.

I do believe in the supernatural.

I do believe that what we are doing 'here' is Real, and as real or valid as anything before or after death. I disagree vehmenently with Plato

I think Free Will is integral to growth and knowledge. that Without the power to make the wrong choice there is no point in having choices at all.

I once had an 'experience' during which I gained the impression the world and the universe even were like a giant rubix cube, every choice pushed a block and as soon as you and the world managed to get each side aligned correctly you just got to move on to a bigger one.

*I use He to describe God simply out of habit other than God (and even that fails) I cannot come up with a word to describe the experience and feeling I associate with God
** Other than with the word Experience I can't think of a word to describe what I experienced. It was partly a waking dream and mostly something that I cannot explain

FAte/Destiny relation to AStrology, I think the Universe is a Reflection of the plan of this universes Diety, I think because we are all a part of 'God' we can look to the Larger (universe) plan and using sign posts (planets and Aspects) interpret a bit of our own destiny (solar system).

Karma are lessons 'God' sets out to help us choose right, and move more little blocks into place.

Time is Einstein, Relative. How fast we go past and through the things around us.

I belive in other Universes, but I do not know if they are connected to this one or not, perhaps they are spirits with their own lessons to learn.

posted October 16, 2002 07:58 AM              

I believe that we humans consists of two completely separate parts, the spiritual Soul and the human material body.

The Soul is eternal, and is reborn again and again into this physical plane in a material body with the goal being for the Soul to experience a series of material lives in order to grow and evolve back to the Oneness from which it was separated.

That free choice exists so that we can consciously choose between walking the spiritual Soul’s path or our material Ego’s path.

Each of us has a special Soul Quest, illustrated in our natal chart and in Tarot Past Life readings unique to each lifecycle.

Our goal in each lifecycle is twofold:

To grow spiritually as an individual and accomplish our Soul’s Quest, and to help and support others in their search to become aware of their Soul’s Quest.

I believe that before we are born into the present physical world, we decided who our parents would be, what environment/culture we would be born into, what our major trials and tribulations that we needed to face in this lifecycle, and what our Soul Quest will be for this lifecycle.

The divine twist to this whole plan is that once we are born, the memory of those decisions are gone from our conscious mind, and buried deep within our unconscious. As we grow and become culurated (my word) in the physical world, we develop our Ego quest, or what we and society thinks our life is all about.

At some point in life, usually determined by the outer planet transits, we will be forced by events beyond our control, to realize that our Ego Quest hasn’t fulfilled our inner needs, that we have a deep hunger for something more, answers that our Ego can’t provide. This normally leads to turning back toward our Soul Quest in one fashion or another.

Throughout our life from the point on, we will struggle with living according to our Ego Quest, or living according to our Soul Quest. This is where Free Choice comes into play. Until we realized that there was a choice, we were just reacting to our Ego’s needs and desires. From that point on, our actions affect our spiritual growth. At some point in life, we realize that it isn’t about just us, but as a spiritual being, we have a social or group responsibility as well.

Eventually we die or transform back to our eternal Soul consciousness, come to an understanding about what we accomplished and what we didn’t, decide what our Soul needs to accomplish in the next lifecycle, and determine the best time, place, family, and environment to be born into. We may continue on a particular Quest, or more likely, we will take the other side of a situation, in order to understand it from all perspectives.

I believe that some souls transform into the physical world for the specific reason to leave again in a short time. They do this not so much for their Soul’s growth, but to help souls of those they love to have experiences needed for their growth.

Our natal charts show our life quests and our strengths and weaknesses in a particular lifecycle. You could call it a life road map. The “one less traveled” according to Bishop Pike. As we live our life we get side tracked on our journey. Transits provide us with life experiences, the intensity of which is dependent upon how far a field we have gotten, to bring us back to our Soul Quest.

posted October 16, 2002 10:34 AM              

I don't believe in right or wrong, I believe in polarity. Time is a tool (like anything is, for instance our vast and dense bodies), not unreal because all we perceive is a reality, although it does seem more and more a dream to me here on earth (but then again dreams are a reality too ).
I don't believe so much in REincarnation but more in incarnation. The physical body is a tool we chose to live in to learn the lessons at hand best. I believe in Higher selves and oversoul. The oversoul projects. But I don't necessarily believe in this one life at this moment. There are many dimensions and they are all around and alive at this moment as all that really exsist is NOW. So to put it simple could be my oversoul is projecting and learning in a parallel universe all chosen by free will right at this very moment. Geez...this is so hard for me. Hope I still make sense.
Plus they say that one has approximately 144 lifes here on earth but how about all those other dimensions visited? And when and how? There is no time so that would be insignificant (not here though).
So being born and going into this body is a bit too simple for me. The oversoul projects and so it doesn't mean I am in this body all the time. Just like we are all going off into other dimensions when we sleep (aaah I love my dreams!).
Yes I believe there is a goal, destiny, well balanced and limited chances we can take or leave. There is always THE CHOICE! We are all players on stage for God. God cannot see without us. It is such fun isn't it? All the experiences lived by all of us, us who were once one and still are. There is no such thing as seperation although it is the opposite of oneness and since I believe in polarities....But too hard to explain.
Natal charts is as well a tool as anything is a tool, be it people, animals, nature, thoughts, feelings etc...It is the way we perceive things around us, what we do with it. And we are guided along the way by our sweetheart guides and angels and other helpers. Blaaah , do feel I should stop. I do not make sense at all! To myself I do but that's because I am thinking the thoughts which are not even close to what you are reading now.
Whaaaah. Anyway...GOD bless!

posted October 16, 2002 08:20 PM              

Most of us blend the two together in our life. Automatic unconscious habits and mannerisms fall under reactive, and allow us to live without having to make conscious decisions on everything we do. Proactive behaivor mean that we make conscious choices and act on those choices.

People who are primarily reactive tend to think everything in life is due to destiny. People who are highly proactive, tend to see life in terms of free choice.

And my last point, destiny removes the need for individual responsibility, while free choice requires that we take personal responsibility for our choices.