posted July 24, 2019 11:46 PM            

Long story short.....I have no contact with my family at this point in my life. Mom has birth certificate with TOB, but won't give it to me. I have ordered a new one, but doesn't have TOB. There is history of abuse in my childhood, and I am looking for markers that would match. I looked on line, and it seems that a tight conjunction of Pluto/Mars in 4H is common.

I have had to guess at my TOB based on what information my mother told me over the years about my ascendant, sun, moon, and venus placements.

Looking at my chart, with the time I think is close, I am not sure if the indicators for abuse in my childhood is apparent here. I know this is might seem a little strange to look for this indicator as evidence of correct time of birth, but I am not sure if significant events later in life will show as readily in birth chart, but I think my parents, siblings, and childhood experiences might be more easily 'seen'.

I do have Saturn square Sun, which issues with dad, but is that enough to indicate hidden abuse. The abuse went on for several years, hidden from public, but was a secret my parents shared.

My parents are both Sag Suns, so not sure how to find them in my chart, other then I realize mom is 4H and dad is 10H. But interestingly enough, my Venus is square my Moon (my mother aspect to me, makes sense) and Saturn square Sun (my dad).

Any insights into how I can find my correct TOB (it is not on my replacement birth certificate, I already looked) would be greatly appreciated.

Link to my natal:

posted July 25, 2019 02:01 AM            

I also am including my first marriage chart.

Notice the beautiful Sun/Moon/Neptune t-square. I don't think I need to explain this at all.

Saturn is square Venus, Mars square Moon, Jupiter square Venus. 1st husband was very verbally and psychologically abusive. No love whatsoever in this union. Anecdotally, I should add that I didn't want to marry this man. We were living together for more than a year, and that was fine with me. Didn't need to get married. My mother guilted me into getting married, as she thought it made her and my dad look bad that I was living with someone and having sex out of marriage, (what kind of insanity is this?) and then the night we went to get married, my parents refused to come, I tried to back out, and the guy starting crying, which made me feel guilty, so I married him. It was an out of body experience for me, literally. I blacked out during the vows and don't remember saying them at all.

So, to help pin down my birth time, would I use a Davison synastry to compare marriage chart to my birth chart to see what lines up for clarification of birth time?

posted July 25, 2019 05:12 AM            

[Note for information : Within the astrological community generally, Kannon McAfee is a recognised expert on rectification http://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/rectification/ - so he will be able to help you with this more than I can.]

Rectification of the birth chart is (usually) done by looking at your progressions and transits since birth - and attempting to align the timing of these with the actual day/date that particular events happened in your life (so far). Such events include :-

Marriage : start of a significant romance : start of a long-term partnership : divorce/separation : birth of a child : death of father : death of mother : other significant death(s) : relocation : an accident : surgery : violence.

posted July 25, 2019 05:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Graham:
Hi Moongirl22.

[Note for information : Within the astrological community generally, Kannon McAfee is a recognised expert on rectification - so he will be able to help you with this more than I can.]

Rectification of the birth chart is (usually) done by looking at your progressions and transits since birth - and attempting to align the timing of these with the [b]actual day/date that particular events happened in your life (so far). Such events include :-

Marriage : start of a significant romance : start of a long-term partnership : divorce/separation : birth of a child : death of father : death of mother : other significant death(s) : relocation : an accident : surgery : violence.

So ... do you have any specific dates (of such events) that could be used to attempt a rectification of your birth time? [/B]

---

Hi Graham,

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Yes, I do have information on most major events. Marriage 1: June 25, 1985, time was around 7 pm. Marriage 2: April 3, 1993, time was around 10 am. Marriage 3: September 9, 2006 near 6:20 pm. Daughters birth: February 17, 1987, TOB: 8:19 am. Both parents still living (as far as I know). Divorce dates would be guesses to times at best, and I really can't remember the dates exactly either, I just burned the papers and moved on. LOL!

I sold my house April 26, 2018 and moved to foreign country July 16, 2018.

Had major surgery October 16, 2011 around 9 am. Was scheduled for earlier I believe, but prior surgery took longer to perform, so mine was bumped back.

Met a guy April 9, 2019 that lasted a few months.

posted July 25, 2019 05:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by moongirl22:
Hi Graham,

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Yes, I do have information on most major events. Marriage 1: June 25, 1985, time was around 7 pm. Marriage 2: April 3, 1993, time was around 10 am. Marriage 3: September 9, 2006 near 6:20 pm. Daughters birth: February 17, 1987, TOB: 8:19 am. Both parents still living (as far as I know). Divorce dates would be guesses to times at best, and I really can't remember the dates exactly either, I just burned the papers and moved on. LOL!

I sold my house April 26, 2018 and moved to foreign country July 16, 2018.

Had major surgery October 16, 2011 around 9 am. Was scheduled for earlier I believe, but prior surgery took longer to perform, so mine was bumped back.

Met a guy April 9, 2019 that lasted a few months.

I can post my marriage charts if that helps, even if the times are off a little.

---

I entered these dates into my (Sirius 3) computerised rectification program* ... and that (non-bespoke) analysis produced an estimated birth time of 7:01 pm.

[*The period from 6pm to 8pm was checked ... at 1 minute intervals, and using both transits and (secondary) progressions to the natal chart.]

posted July 25, 2019 06:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Graham:
I entered these dates into my (Sirius 3) computerised rectification program* ... and that (non-bespoke) analysis produced an estimated birth time of 7:01 pm.

[*The period from 6pm to 8pm was checked ... at 1 minute intervals, and using both transits and (secondary) progressions to the natal chart.]

---

posted July 25, 2019 07:17 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by moongirl22:
Graham, thank you, thank you, thank you!! I am so very appreciative!

---

For information ... I have now also run the program for the whole 24 hours of your birth day, at 1 minute intervals.

It still produced a best estimated time of 7:01 pm ... with 2nd and 3rd place estimates being 7:27am and 8:26am.

posted July 25, 2019 07:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Graham:

For information ... I have now also run the program for the whole 24 hours of your birth day, at 1 minute intervals.

It still produced a best estimated time of 7:01 pm ... with 2nd and 3rd place estimates being 7:27am and 8:26am.

Thanks, I will take a look at those times as well.

---

posted July 25, 2019 02:05 PM            

Lauren uses Noel Tyl's solar arc theory for verification when birth charts have planets in the above houses stated(including the 12th).

Looking at the initial chart given, Solar Arc Pluto arcs to conjunct the Ic and oppose the Mc at 5/6 years of age.

Pluto often suggests monumental changes that have a permanent effect i.e a move/relocation, a death, a birth, a divorce. Typically speaking, something that affects the family and/or homelife(Ic) or impacts the career of the parents in some way.

For instance moving abroad because of a war in the home country(Mc) would affect the family/homelife(Ic) tremendously. So this is indicative of Pluto in action. It could mean something very hard to undo or reverse.

Family members could be lost and their whereabouts remain unknown. The sense of "belonging" could be irreversibly shattered as your home country is no longer safe and feels like a war zone etc.

In your chart Pluto 16 degrees Virgo subtract proposed Ic at 21 degrees Virgo at 5/6 years of age(when the points are rounded off). Is there any event from memory that can be recalled?

If you check by transits.

Neptune on Ic/Mc would suggest a period of wipeout or looking for spiritual meaning.

I know a person whom during a Neptune Transit started to drink a lot to cope with his divorce.He was struggling to find meaning in his life and Neptune was squaring his Ic.

Brad Pitt is currently recovering from an alcohol overuse ever since his marriage to Angelina fell apart. Neptune squares his Asc in Sag.

Its hard to find a place to steady oneself with Neptune transit.Neptune rules alcohol,drugs,depression,feelings of isolation etc. The purpose of this transit is to find meaning and an anchor on something other than what can "dissolve". Neptune is also linked God or devout worship of a deity.

Ura are inconveniences,sudden changes,new beginnings that one must incorporate into their life that are unavoidable and also likely irreversible.

I will use my chart as an example. When transit Uranus crossed over the Mc/Ic axis, I went back to school to study.It felt necessary.

In the meantime however, I would also limit life events to 4 at most. And these should be spaced out over time.

See if there is correlation between burth time estimated and solar arc progressions.

Remember also that it is the Mc/Ic axis that moves back and forth. The planets "anchor" the energy and generally stay the same(with the exception of the Moon that can change a couple of degrees).

posted July 25, 2019 03:31 PM            

GO to this thread I've linked,
Read July 25 posting--
{look for the emoji of the stork! ..}
- http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/000016-2.html

Now.... MAYBE??? You could call the Clerk in the Office where you wrote to get your record (and paid for it??.. ..). Explain that you were expecting the copy with TOB, and didn't realize it wouldn't appear on all copies.

Maybe, since things are electronically stored now, you could include giving the Clerk the Record Location number (Document Registration Number {whatever they call it}). You can find this indicated, printed/stamped, on your BC somewhere)? If you ~~~kinda~~~~ nicely ask if this person would pull it up, and just "read" what TOB is on the screen, perhaps they'll do so?

{{oops, I see you had moved from birthplace USA to foreign country. If you are not able to make a phone call, you'll have to improvise with a letter stating the error you made in NOT "realizing" that you had to stipulate WHICH one of the copies you wanted.}}

If you can "pay" for a new one, it might save you MONEY, as the work of Rectification is very "involved" and an expensive chart.

I've heard there's been astrological 'activity' out where you are now. Astrologers traveling there to do teaching seminars.

See the link I left--
Read about the three copies of BC's ..

.. I'm so sorry you had abuse in your life. I hope your relationship with your daughters is solid and good.

posted July 25, 2019 08:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
I would strongly recommend Lauren Delsack's YouTube Video "Verifying the accuracy of a birth chart" for this. This especially when I look and see that you have planets in 3rd,6th and 9th in your proposed birth chart.

Lauren uses Noel Tyl's solar arc theory for verification when birth charts have planets in the above houses stated(including the 12th).

Looking at the initial chart given, Solar Arc Pluto arcs to conjunct the Ic and oppose the Mc at 5/6 years of age.

Pluto often suggests monumental changes that have a permanent effect i.e a move/relocation, a death, a birth, a divorce. Typically speaking, something that affects the family and/or homelife(Ic) or impacts the career of the parents in some way.

For instance moving abroad because of a war in the home country(Mc) would affect the family/homelife(Ic) tremendously. So this is indicative of Pluto in action. It could mean something very hard to undo or reverse.

Family members could be lost and their whereabouts remain unknown. The sense of "belonging" could be irreversibly shattered as your home country is no longer safe and feels like a war zone etc.

In your chart Pluto 16 degrees Virgo subtract proposed Ic at 21 degrees Virgo at 5/6 years of age(when the points are rounded off). Is there any event from memory that can be recalled?

If you check by transits.

Neptune on Ic/Mc would suggest a period of wipeout or looking for spiritual meaning.

I know a person whom during a Neptune Transit started to drink a lot to cope with his divorce.He was struggling to find meaning in his life and Neptune was squaring his Ic.

Brad Pitt is currently recovering from an alcohol overuse ever since his marriage to Angelina fell apart. Neptune squares his Asc in Sag.

Its hard to find a place to steady oneself with Neptune transit.Neptune rules alcohol,drugs,depression,feelings of isolation etc. The purpose of this transit is to find meaning and an anchor on something other than what can "dissolve". Neptune is also linked God or devout worship of a deity.

Ura are inconveniences,sudden changes,new beginnings that one must incorporate into their life that are unavoidable and also likely irreversible.

I will use my chart as an example. When transit Uranus crossed over the Mc/Ic axis, I went back to school to study.It felt necessary.

In the meantime however, I would also limit life events to 4 at most. And these should be spaced out over time.

See if there is correlation between burth time estimated and solar arc progressions.

Remember also that it is the Mc/Ic axis that moves back and forth. The planets "anchor" the energy and generally stay the same(with the exception of the Moon that can change a couple of degrees).

Kannon Mcafee can assist you too. He does the rectification as a profession. But i don't know if his methods will overlap with the one suggested above.

---

Hi Aries,

Thank you for the helpful suggestions. I am doing this now, looking at ways to rectify based on life events. Things are lining up pretty well in regards to the placement of pMars in relation to my IC, and pVesta on my MC. These seem to be the two "instigators" of major change in my home life.

So, to the best of my memory, we moved to a location where the worst of the abuse occurred for three years. My sister refers to those years as our personal Holocaust. Pluto was definitely in action in those years. They were the most painful of our experiences, experiences that would alter the landscapes of our psyches forever. It was bad on all levels. The factory my father worked for went on strike, the house brand new house they bought in a new subdivision had problems with the septic system, and neither one of them had any healthy coping skills. They didn't use alcohol or drugs, but they didn't have the skills to emotionally handle the devastation to their lives, nor the psychological ability to find a solution. So, yeah, this would coincide with that time period. We moved again when I was nine, and life improved drastically. Mostly because my father had a new job that paid well.

I have also looked at my marriage events, and am seeing a theme in those events as well.

posted July 25, 2019 08:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mirage29:
I was purging some files the other day (around the time you started your thread), and found an index card I had made with information on how to ask for the copy of your certificate WITH the Time of Birth.

GO to this thread I've linked,
Read July 25 posting--
{look for the emoji of the stork! ..}
- http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/000016-2.html

Now.... MAYBE??? You could call the Clerk in the Office where you wrote to get your record (and paid for it??.. ..). Explain that you where expecting the copy with TOB, and didn't realize it wouldn't appear on all copies.

Maybe, since things are electronically stored now, you could include giving the Clerk the Record Location number (Document Registration Number {whatever they call it}). You can find this indicated, printed/stamped, on your BC somewhere)? If you ~~~kinda~~~~ nicely ask if this person would pull it up, and just "read" what TOB is on the screen, perhaps they'll do so?

{{oops, I see you had moved from birthplace USA to foreign country. If you are not able to make a phone call, you'll have to improvise with a letter stating the error you made in NOT "realizing" that you had to stipulate WHICH one of the copies you wanted.}}

If you can "pay" for a new one, it might save you MONEY, as the work of Rectification is very "involved" and an expensive chart.

I've heard there's been astrological 'activity' out where you are now. Astrologers traveling there to do teaching seminars.

See the link I left--
Read about the three copies of BC's ..

.. I'm so sorry you had abuse in your life. I hope your relationship with your daughters is solid and good.

---

Hi Mirage29,

What a 'coincidence' that you came across the index card.😄

What a great idea! I can always call the clerks office where I was born and see if they can do that for me, or at the very least, perhaps they can send me an electronic copy. I don't mind paying for it at all!

Thank you for your kind words about the abuse. It was bad, but it provided me with lots of opportunity for growth.

And, yes, my daughter and are very close. She lives in Asia as well, so we spend time with each other as much as possible. She is my heart.❤️

posted July 26, 2019 01:11 PM            

I computer-searched for astrologers in Bangkok.

Saw that there's a facebook group called Astrologers of Thailand. There hasn't been any 'recent' information left on their page. They have around 25 members. The astrologer (from the Americas) that they mentioned had come to do a workshop is a worthwhile person. Based on that, they're probably a cool group?

So exciting that you already 'have' a taste for astrology, in that your mother had been an astrologer.

I'm going to LOVE seeing what your actual chart is (based on TOB).

I started an interest in astrology right at your age!! You're right on time!

The fact that you have already 'lived' most of the chart transits, what you'll be doing is gaining 'labels' to identify them energetically.

How wonderful -- you'll be able to help guide your daughters.

It DOES take some 'time' to learn it to a certain proficiency, where astrology becomes more than just 'head' intellectual knowledge. By the time you finish your 2nd Saturn Return, and go a few years past that, you're going to be so pleased by the understanding you have, if you stick with it. Stay with 'good' matured (certified??) qualified teachers (in your learning), and you'll form 'good habits' and avoid errors.

Those charts you're delving into, are a more-advanced kind of astrology. How long have you been into it now?

Can't wait to see your TOB.

Please automatically, do not *WHOLE QUOTE* my replies (unless, appropriate of course).

Sometimes I need to correct errors--
(like, spelling autocorrects!!! arrrgh!! LOL)

posted July 26, 2019 09:12 PM            

I started an interest in astrology right at your age!! You're right on time!

The fact that you have already 'lived' most of the chart transits, what you'll be doing is gaining 'labels' to identify them energetically.

How wonderful -- you'll be able to help guide your daughters.

It DOES take some 'time' to learn it to a certain proficiency, where astrology becomes more than just 'head' intellectual knowledge. By the time you finish your 2nd Saturn Return, and go a few years past that, you're going to be so pleased by the understanding you have, if you stick with it. Stay with 'good' matured (certified??) qualified teachers (in your learning), and you'll form 'good habits' and avoid errors.

Those charts you're delving into, are a more-advanced kind of astrology. How long have you been into it now?

Can't wait to see your TOB.

Good to hear that I am on track!

I have only started studying astrology 2 months ago. While I may have grown up around astrology, I didn't have the best experience or view of it based on the manner in which my mother used astrology. She focused on negative aspects of our charts and used the information to manipulate, which was unfortunate, as all of us kids had our own special gifts and talents.

Curious about your statement that I have lived most of my transits and will now be gaining labels. Can you explain, please?

Will definitely share natal once I now TOB!

posted July 26, 2019 11:24 PM            

It's confusing to see the words of my last post blended in with what you wrote.

I use a desk top computer, and don't have a cellphone.

Is the issue for you that you can't see the words of my last post, so you need to carry it into your reply post? That, you have an issue with not being able to review your thread WHILE you compose your next post?

I know that (for me, on desktop) if I scroll down using the vertical grey-bar on extreme right of page, the window 'splits' horizontally down at the bottom of the screen, enabling me to scroll that mini-window to check any of your previous posts in this thread. (for example, to see the chart you posted)

If you can't see the 'split screen' from whatever device you are using, then that might explain to me the 'need' you have to *whole quote* every post.

In that case, I'll try to be briefer, and leave the long conversations to others. {Gently, I feel uncomfortable participating in threads where people need to 'compulsively' quote every single word and reply. }

I know that on 'some' social media sites (outside of LL), members have the practice of quoting the person in every single reply made.

I can see the value in doing that, sometimes, on busy fast-moving threads with layers of cross-conversations going on.

Thing is, if I see my typos too late, or, I made a mistake with the number of an asteroid; or, I had MORE information I wanted to add-- and keep it 'all' together, then, if the person had *Quoted* me, I couldn't go back in to "correct" my post. Can't go back in to improve sentences, etc.

Once I've done a post, and it settles a bit, I leave it stand-as-is. IF I 'correct' something, I usually 'Edit' in and indicate that at bottom of that post.

I get to flesh-out meanings in paragraphs, if I see things missing in my post.

Once the other person has responded to what I said (even if it's just a *smile*), I don't change it anymore.

*~

You asked, "Curious about your statement that I have lived most of my transits and will now be gaining labels. Can you explain, please?"

You already lived-through, for example, your Uranus Opposite Uranus transit. And, your Chiron Return. When you read the descriptions of that, then you already can identify (in you) what that experience was like-- over arching sense.

With some faster-moving transits, you probably know 'where' the transiting moon feels good (or anxious, etc) as it contacts other planets and points in your chart.

You have a 'sense' of what it's like to have a Cancer Moon, 1st House-- and its connections to other bodies.

When you read astrological descriptions of that feature of your chart, you might find an inner-witness inside you -- words.. that match the lived-experience, the energy, and puts a label to it.

In the beginning of learning astrology for me, it was like a world of relating opened up. New language to describe what I sensed and knew about my world.

(This might be an intense and super-dramatic scene to illustrate my point? .. but, maybe, if you relate to it, you'll find some value.)

(topic) Water Scene (Helen Keller, from movie "The Miracle Worker") [6:11] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUV65sV8nu0

Same thing with 'Moon sextile Uranus' , etc.

Your inner Experience bank... in time, will have planet and zodiac labels/names, and aspects and configurations, associated with the parts of your experience.

Sorry if I'm not making sense with this! *smile, lol*

In my astrology start, I had become comfortable with the initial language-- then I began to study specific aspects. One day, I turned on the television, and there was a story about a well-known movie actress. As they began to describe certain things about her life, I began to 'see' (with my imagination), the possible chart features she had.
.. I looked up her chart, and yes indeed, I had "guessed" 4 things in her chart without having seen it!
.. THAT was the 'moment' that captured me regarding astrology and its ability to explain the energy of other people.

*~

So, I'll be excited to see your corrected charts, once you receive TOB.

*~

I remember the first time I engaged a professional astrologer, a complete stranger, to read my chart--

Powerful experience.. for someone so otherwise unknown. Not understood.

posted July 26, 2019 11:45 PM            

Sorry for the quoting. Yes, initially, I needed to see what was written so that I could answer all points in the post.

Specifically, though, in the last post, I only quoted the section that I was replying to and had a question about.

Sorry if this was confusing or frustrating for you. Not my intention.

posted July 27, 2019 12:03 AM            

Thanks for being so understanding.
I have a shyness inside of me, and sometimes I feel more tender than usual.

I like to do a good job for people.
Had once spent over a year at a social media site (before LL), and I got 'spoiled' because they had "Print Preview" before the final submit.

Print Preview lets you see 'the whole thing' AS it will appear. You can jump back in and edit things you 'see' you got wrong, or fill-in holes in what you're trying to express but missed. LOL.

You seem to already have some astrology under your belt!! ..

posted July 30, 2019 08:56 AM            

They weren't looking at the right one?
The certificate that your mother was given HAS the birthtime.

It's vague to me now.. but.. another place to ask is the Hospital you were born in (if you had a hospital birth).

Sometimes the hospitals keep those records.

(Offer the hospital some money for their time and research.)

Are you in touch with any friends, relatives, cousins, that live in your birth area?

Give them the birth data including the Registration number in public records, and have them go see the originals themselves-- either at Hall of Records, OR, at the hospital you were born. (Offer them some money-- pay them lunch.)

Try that.
_________
*smiling*.. this reminds me of a TV show.
"Who Do You Think You Are".
Show on genealogy, where they trace a celebrity's family line all the way back to their roots.

Public information.
Originals and copies of them ARE available.
Depends on the person you ask.

Not all 'clerks' are knowledgeable about the nuances of their positions. (Some, can be really really quite rude too; handle with kid gloves and finesse!! LOL)

posted July 30, 2019 05:50 PM            

I did speak with the clerk at records office. No tob on record. My mother recorded the tob herself, not the hospital. She is not willing to give that to me, so I am at a loss. At this point, being that she is 80, she may not remember accurately.

Thank you so much for your encouragement and support! So very much appreciated!

posted July 31, 2019 03:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by moongirl22:
Got it! My nephew was able to get it from his mom.

---

Are you ok with disclosing that time here, moongirl22?

[I'd like to check what progression and transit "hits" my computer program produces for this time.]