posted December 24, 2014 03:13 PM            

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Originally posted by charlie:
I have a composite 5 planet stellium in 12H with my fiance and I have gone through a metamorphosis, or undoing if you will. I barely recognize myself! It's been REALLY hard for me, and him, at times and I have questioned everything I have previously believed in and stood for. It hasn't happened in a blatant way but more "behind the scenes" or under the surface. I've been knocked sideways pretty hard. I don't know what's waiting for me on the other side but I can only think and hope it's a better me!

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Very interesting charlie....are you happy? Are these changes making you better or are they just painful?

It took me a long time to find my emotional strength, appreciation and faith in myself and my emotions...I despised feeling anything for a long time.
But once I let go and began to allow myself to feel it was like a world opened up to me, it was so beautiful and full of depth I didn't know existed.
I hope you keep going because what's behind those 12th house placements is a higher power, I believe our 12th house placements are where we can tap into the universes energy and love if we can get over our fear of not deserving or rejecting parts of ourselves.

posted December 24, 2014 05:02 PM            

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Originally posted by Gabby:
I have read this many times but yet I'm very attracted to ppl that hit my 12th house. I practice the feeling of letting and letting it flow to see where I'm led versus trying to force my will and change what's happening.
I'm wondering if someone is like me and desires to feel the 12th house would a relationship with 12th house placements in the composite be bad or just more chances for learning?
Does the 12th always have to be an undoing?
I have an unaspected 12th house moon....I guess that's why the 12th house fascinates me, maybe I should be more scared of it but I instead I like it.

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Gabby, I also have a fascination with the 12th house because the 12th IS fascinating. I also have a stellium in the 12th.

I think the reading of the 12th house having to do with self-undoing is the classic interpretation of this house. However, given the contributions of depth psychology (Freud, Jung, Hillman, et al.) in the 20th century to the evolution of the Western mind and psyche, and to modern astrology (Liz Greene, Erin Sullivan, and others) our understanding of the 12th has been enriched immeasurably.

In Jungian terms, the 12th house is the house of archetypes of the collective unconscious. That is, the symbols and myths and universal experiences that are common to all of humanity. This house has the least ties with mundane, three dimensional reality and more to do with the multidimensionality of the Universe and the human psyche. The inhabitants of this house are beings and forces relating to other dimensions and realities.

For people who have an active 12th house, the veil between this dimension and the unseen is thin. These people can have spiritual and psychic gifts. The down side is that these are the people who may have greater difficulty fitting in, there may be a feeling of being alien on the planet and they may be late bloomers so to speak.

Because of the extraordinary nature of the 12th house to begin with when considering one's natal chart, I think it becomes very complex and mysterious when considering planets and overlays in synastry.

The 12th deals with the realm of the archetypal and so it seems to me someone's planets in your 12th house are going to have an archetypal aura about them, which would make these contacts very compelling. But, I think it would depend on how a person resonates with their 12th house and whether they've made it conscious by inner work, meditation, breathwork, spiritual practices, etc. to register what's going on there.

So, I think 12th house contacts in synastry are very significant and can be either positive or negative, depending on the individuals.

That's my take.

p.s. Your way of going with the flow strikes me as exactly the way to handle 12th house energies in synastry.

posted December 25, 2014 01:46 AM            

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Originally posted by peony:
Gabby, I also have a fascination with the 12th house because the 12th IS fascinating. I also have a stellium in the 12th.

I think the reading of the 12th house having to do with self-undoing is the classic interpretation of this house. However, given the contributions of depth psychology (Freud, Jung, Hillman, et al.) in the 20th century to the evolution of the Western mind and psyche, and to modern astrology (Liz Greene, Erin Sullivan, and others) our understanding of the 12th has been enriched immeasurably.

In Jungian terms, the 12th house is the house of archetypes of the collective unconscious. That is, the symbols and myths and universal experiences that are common to all of humanity. This house has the least ties with mundane, three dimensional reality and more to do with the multidimensionality of the Universe and the human psyche. The inhabitants of this house are beings and forces relating to other dimensions and realities.

For people who have an active 12th house, the veil between this dimension and the unseen is thin. These people can have spiritual and psychic gifts. The down side is that these are the people who may have greater difficulty fitting in, there may be a feeling of being alien on the planet and they may be late bloomers so to speak.

Because of the extraordinary nature of the 12th house to begin with when considering one's natal chart, I think it becomes very complex and mysterious when considering planets and overlays in synastry.

The 12th deals with the realm of the archetypal and so it seems to me someone's planets in your 12th house are going to have an archetypal aura about them, which would make these contacts very compelling. But, I think it would depend on how a person resonates with their 12th house and whether they've made it conscious by inner work, meditation, breathwork, spiritual practices, etc. to register what's going on there.

So, I think 12th house contacts in synastry are very significant and can be either positive or negative, depending on the individuals.

That's my take.

p.s. Your way of going with the flow strikes me as exactly the way to handle 12th house energies in synastry.

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I love your thoughts on 12th house, I could not agree more!
To me is the most beautiful and enlightening of all houses, if you can find your way through the darkness.
What's interesting to me is it's not actually darkness in the 12th house, it's only a lack of physical light as in the physical matter that produces the contrasts that make us believe their is light and darkness...but that's a very human way to see life.
Outside of our human form light and darkness don't exist only energy....I think once you begin to see yourself outside of the human form and feel or connect to yourself on an energetic level, you begin to understand your 12th.
Once you go there you can never go back, it's just to beautiful and peaceful....it's like your learning how to rise above the pain and fear of being human. You get to this place that the stress of life doesn't get to you, you realize it's not real....and to change it all you have to do is not give into the fear, keep smiling and genuinely not allowing the fear to change your emotional outlook or thinking...just stay happy and watch it all fall away because the darkness has no power over the light in human form so continue being the light and everything always works out. To me, this is the lesson of the 12th house...there is no darkness unless you chose to perceive darkness, if you do....hold on because it's going to be a tough road.
12th house can be a house of light but it's not a light that easily seen when your here in human form, fear usually wins and you get to where you believe in the darkness just as much if not more than the light.

I hope that makes sense??

posted December 25, 2014 01:51 AM            

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Originally posted by manderin:
It really depends on your own chart as well as your emotional evolution. As a general rule someone having too many planets in your 12th can be tricky as this person can easily become a frenemy. Making you think they have your best interest at heart while subjugating you behind your back. But the effects can be good or bad depending on your own chart.

For example: If you have NN in your 12th house it's generally NOT good for anyone to have their planets (especially sun) in your 12th house. Exceptions might be if these planets happen to be in great aspect to your planets. If you have SN in your 12th house someone's planets here won't likely do much harm at all, unless they create harsh aspects to some of your planets.

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posted December 25, 2014 10:24 AM            

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Originally posted by Sylven:
Hi Gabby,

Can I ask you what aspects to your Moon they have? Are these conjunctions, squares or smooth trines?
I am currently wondering why I am attracting people with Venus in the 12th. And they all have more than one planet in 12th. Maybe because I have Pisces Descendant. Anyway, that's another topic. Just wondering which aspects. It sounds so logical they provided a bridge to you. How beautiful!! It could also make you very scared no? That's what I have witnessed but maybe that's my own path. Twelfth house people are scared for the depth. It might be that's why they met me. I am a Plutonian and not afraid to go very deep and get them in touch.

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posted December 26, 2014 02:18 AM            

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Originally posted by charlie:
I have a composite 5 planet stellium in 12H with my fiance and I have gone through a metamorphosis, or undoing if you will. I barely recognize myself! It's been REALLY hard for me, and him, at times and I have questioned everything I have previously believed in and stood for. It hasn't happened in a blatant way but more "behind the scenes" or under the surface. I've been knocked sideways pretty hard. I don't know what's waiting for me on the other side but I can only think and hope it's a better me!

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posted December 28, 2014 12:53 PM            

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Originally posted by alyssa27:
me and my bf have a love stellium plus mars in 12th house composite..in the beginning i was terrified with the things i've read about the 12th composite house...now i think he is a gift in my life ..the day i met him i wished for someone to come into my life(never wished something like that before)..the same night he came into my life..he looked at me and smiled i smiled back to him..that was it..i think my wish came true

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posted December 28, 2014 02:38 PM            

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Originally posted by Gabby:
I love your thoughts on 12th house, I could not agree more!

To me is the most beautiful and enlightening of all houses, if you can find your way through the darkness.

Outside of our human form light and darkness don't exist only energy....I think once you begin to see yourself outside of the human form and feel or connect to yourself on an energetic level, you begin to understand your 12th.

12th house can be a house of light but it's not a light that easily seen when your here in human form, fear usually wins and you get to where you believe in the darkness just as much if not more than the light.

I hope that makes sense??

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Gabby, what you say does make sense. I wonder if one factor that may come into play regarding how we relate to the 12th house has to do with what planets are there. I have Moon and Venus and I love the 12th house. Whereas someone with Saturn or Saturn-Neptune or Saturn-Pluto may experience the darker aspects of the 12th. Of course, this isn't taking into account how evolved the soul is which would be decisive in how a person would manifest their birth chart. Amaji, an East Indian saint has or had a Saturn-Neptune conjunction in the 12th house.

The 12th is very BIG in terms of what it encompasses, but still not beyond duality because only the highest planes are beyond that. And wherever duality holds sway, there is a mixture of light and darkness.

I also want to say something more about planets in the 12th having an archetypal aura. I connect Moon in the 12th with the Great Mother and her incarnations, much more than my personal mother. I think Moon in the 12th also needs to pay particular attention to the "mother" inside the psyche. Moon in the 12th I think resonates very, very deeply for good or ill. If there is an unhealthy relationship to the mother within, it can draw a person away from life and the world.

I also connect Moon in the 12th with the Persephone myth, not the rape part but the theme of loss between mother and daughter. I lost my mother when I was two and my daughter also.

Venus in the 12th in some people is attuned to the multi-dimensionality of love and relationships, i.e., past lives, soul mates, etc. I don't relate to marriage in conventional or practical terms, but in alchemical or metaphysical terms. I haven't studied Moon or Venus in the 12th in composite as well, but I think that would be interesting.

Thanks for the discussion!

posted December 28, 2014 08:37 PM            

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Interestingly the 12th house is the house when the Sun rises (on the ASC) and then moving up. So it separates the darkness from the 1st house, which is still on the night-side, and leads us through the dawn into a new day.

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Funny you say that, I've thought about that before....the 12th is the only place in our astrological chart that could be seen as the house that holds the dawn, the place that even though it's still dark, it's getting less so with every degree as the sun slowly rises into a new day. I see that as another aspect of the 12th.
It's like an alcoholic who finally hits rock bottom...he's in the middle of the 12th house, at the darkest place of his life. This is the place you hit when you don't care if you live it die, but it's also the place where there is no other way to go but up, if you chose life.
He's so low he finally sees how and why he's struggled and lost, finally sees how he created his own his issues, finally sees or faces his own demons.
He emerges with new knowledge and the choice to either refuse to accept himself at his darkest places and give up or to accept himself at his darkest places begin his climb out of the hole he had put himself into. He can see the light and it's getting brighter as he reaches the AC he is finally emerging from his hole...IMO
It's in the darkest places that we start to see the reality of our soul, the reality that their is no darkness or light. Theirs only love and the darkness and light come from our choice to be love or refuse love, the love we have for ourself equals and amplifies the love we have to give. Love is the flow of life...without it we die. Love is the light, refusal or denial of love is the darkness....but there is only 1 reality, love. Love is the energy that we all come from..."God is love" and so that's what we are, and the 12 the house forces us to dive so deep we lose sight of everything and come face to face with the nothing that holds everything. IMO
The 12th is where we meet ourselves outside of our mortal body and learn what we need to see in order to be the best we can be for ourselves and this world...in order to be that we must learn how to see past our humanity and see we are part of something so much bigger than the reality we see on Earth.

posted December 29, 2014 07:03 AM            

"at the darkest place of his life."
The darkest place (though not necessarily the worst place ) is actually found at the IC. That is the deepest point of the chart, the absence of any sunlight, hence the Moon reigns there.

"This is the place you hit when you don't care if you live it die, but it's also the place where there is no other way to go but up, if you chose life."
I understand your analogy though.

"He can see the light and it's getting brighter as he reaches the AC he is finally emerging from his hole..."
That is the thing though, he does not grow in direction of the ASC, but in direction of the MC (through the 11th house of course).
The ASC is what happens prior to the 12th house in terms of the daily motion of the Sun through the houses.
There is actually someone who suggested we turn the houses around because of that reason, making the 12th the 1st house, the 11th the 2nd and so on. Very eccentric.

However it is interesting, too, how the 12th house might be about things we are not aware of ourselves, but others can usually see them very clearly. The 12th house Mars might not be always accessible to me, but other people tend to have no problem to see it in action. At least my little brother once took me by surprise telling me he considers me as really argumentative and being passionate about my opinions and defending them and not giving an inch, and the rest of my family was actually agreeing to that.
While i think I keep it a little toned down in public, it seems that at least people close to me are VERY aware of that Mars that I always thought did not even really exist in my everyday life and behaviour. My blind spot - maybe. But not invisible to the world.

The IC is the place where the opposite mechanism happens. Things there might be invisible to the world, but very ingrained in one`s soul.

Nevertheless the ASC is what separates night from day, just that we find night in the 1st house and day in the 12th house, not the other way round.

I am still trying to bring that together with traditional and current interpretation of 12th house, which of course fit, I mean they worked for centuries.

posted December 29, 2014 07:09 AM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
That's a good point, Ceridwen. Reminds me of a description I once read for the natal Sun in 8th house placement: "This is a good house for the Sun to be in, because here it lightens up a dark place." The same could perhaps be said for the 12th house. I have a feeling the water houses in general can have a rather broad spectrum of meanings, depending on the native's own chart characteristics. Example: My own nSun is in H8, in Cancer and my man's nSun is in H4, in Scorpio - they are thus kind of interchanged in terms of houses/signs. Our composite Virgo Sun falls in H12 - the Pisces house (and it opposes composite Pisces Moon in H6). I think because the water energies in terms of signs and houses are so strong in both our natal charts, the resulting 12th house Sun in composite opp. Pisces Moon is only natural. And, it also points to this relationship being rooted in a past life, which is another meaning of the 12th House.

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yes, water houses are fascinating. And the composite usually reflects the natals. Well most certainly in terms of aspects, but seems also to relate to sign and houses.
I also think a 6th/ Virgo influence for two people with a lot of water, especially Pisces/ 12th is a real good place to start for giving a form and stabiliy to all that water.

I find it interesting, in MR Sag`s and my composite, we have Moon and Venus in 12th house.
In the case of the Moon that results from his 10th house and my 2nd house Moon - so very earthly oriented Moons in terms of houses end up in the most formless house of all.

posted December 29, 2014 11:04 AM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Do you mean in synastry or composite?
I have a 12th house Venus synastrically, one-way…his Venus is in my 12th house, while my Venus falls in his 1st house (same distance from the AC but reversed direction). In the composite chart, Venus thus ends up conjunct the composite Libra AC (orb 1°16), but from the 1st house. I'm not sure I can isolate the 12th house effect on his Venus in this case…but maybe you meant composite 12th anyway?

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Yes. Composite.. The topic is about composite 12th..

posted December 29, 2014 03:11 PM            

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Originally posted by Gabby:
Interesting! I've experienced people conjunct my moon in 12th help me connect or give me a bridge to connect with my emotions. Its like through them I can start to feel myself emotionally and grow from the bridge they gave me.

Have not experienced any "frenemy" relationships from 12th house....but I could see how it could happen because 12th house contacts do have a secret door into you that you didn't open for them, give the wrong person that door way and it could be bad. I've been lucky so far!

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Gabby, thanks for sharing your own experiences.

"12th house contacts do have a secret door into you that you didn't open for them..."