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Author Topic:   Negative orb in Synastry
Lioness
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posted April 09, 2015 06:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lioness     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have asked about this before, here's what I have been told.

From the grid.
S - separating aspect
A- applying aspect.
-2 the aspect is "less than 2 orbs, like 1.5 away
2 the aspect is 2 orbs away

You might see examples
A -2 (triangle)
Applying trine less than 2 orbs away.
S -2 (triangle)
Separating from a trine less than 2 orbs ago.

A 2 triangle
Applying trine 2 orbs away

S 2 triangle
Separating from a trine 2 orbs ago.
I believe it rounds off

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Blind writer
Knowflake

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From: Texas, USA
Registered: May 2012

posted April 09, 2015 07:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blind writer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@Lioness

I have not found this exactly true. I just checked a chart, and see VENUS sextile MARS, applying. Per the table, it reads -1a, which by that explanation would indicate "less than 1 orb, ie 0.5". The actual orb is 1°54', which is very nearly 2°.

MARS Sco 11°34'
VENUS Cap 9°40'

Here, VENUS is ahead and pulling on MARS with her faster speed. She's forcing the sextile to happen.

That also doesn't explain a -0. How to have less than a zero orb? It might work if you always add one to the number listed on the table, however. I decided to check.


I looked at another chart, looking for two similar aspects to compare (both objects applying or separating, same degree orb listed).

CERES 24°20'
PALLAS 22°54'
VALENTINE 24°33'

PALLAS-CERES orb is 1°26'
PALLAS-VALENTINE orb is 1°39'

PALLAS-CERES shows 1s
PALLAS-VALENTINE shows -1s

I can buy rounding, but it's backwards here. "Less than 1 (modified to 2) degrees" for -1s is actually the larger orb.


So I checked applying aspects for objects with the same orb to see if it was just a quirk of separating aspects.

AMOR 3°10'
SATURN 5°14'
MC 3°11'

SATURN-AMOR orb is 2°04'
SATURN-MC orb is 2°03'

SATURN-AMOR shows -2a
SATURN-MC shows 2a

Rounding does not appear to factor in here. Inconsistent results. I thought that could have possibly been an easier and more simple way to explain the negative orb values, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Oh well. Back to my race car analogy!

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Lioness
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posted April 09, 2015 08:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lioness     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blind writer:
@Lioness

I have not found this exactly true. I just checked a chart, and see VENUS sextile MARS, applying. Per the table, it reads -1a, which by that explanation would indicate "less than 1 orb, ie 0.5". The actual orb is 1°54', which is very nearly 2°.

MARS Sco 11°34'
VENUS Cap 9°40'

Here, VENUS is ahead and pulling on MARS with her faster speed. She's forcing the sextile to happen.

That also doesn't explain a -0. How to have less than a zero orb? It might work if you always add one to the number listed on the table, however. I decided to check.


I looked at another chart, looking for two similar aspects to compare (both objects applying or separating, same degree orb listed).

CERES 24°20'
PALLAS 22°54'
VALENTINE 24°33'

PALLAS-CERES orb is 1°26'
PALLAS-VALENTINE orb is 1°39'

PALLAS-CERES shows 1s
PALLAS-VALENTINE shows -1s

I can buy rounding, but it's backwards here. "Less than 1 (modified to 2) degrees" for -1s is actually the larger orb.


So I checked applying aspects for objects with the same orb to see if it was just a quirk of separating aspects.

AMOR 3°10'
SATURN 5°14'
MC 3°11'

SATURN-AMOR orb is 2°04'
SATURN-MC orb is 2°03'

SATURN-AMOR shows -2a
SATURN-MC shows 2a

Rounding does not appear to factor in here. Inconsistent results. I thought that could have possibly been an easier and more simple way to explain the negative orb values, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Oh well. Back to my race car analogy!



Interesting.
I went back and checked mine, most of mine fit that value, I did however notice the ones that didn't fit that value, when one of the planets was RX. Maybe there is a different set up or explanation when planets are Rx.

In your example are any planets Rx?

Either way I'm not 100% sure! but that's how I understood it. I'll try to find the explanation, maybe I'm not remembering something correctly..

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polkadotstars
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From: Washington, DC
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posted April 09, 2015 10:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for polkadotstars     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aubyanne:
MOON trine MARS to me feels like the endorphin rush after working out together. Since it's physical, there's a dose of oxytocin, too. You feel warm, (body temperature elevated) but soothed, and not yet sore. You can just melt into each other's arms and bask in the afterglow of the activity -- whether it's post-sex, post-workout, or post-running for your lives from zombies.

This sounds awesome

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Aubyanne
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posted April 10, 2015 01:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blind writer:
Positive values are easiest to visualize as a direct challenge, as you can just picture, say, the SUN zooming up from behind a slowpoke like PLUTO (positive applying), and then leaving him in a cloud of dust (positive separating).

Negative values require a bit more imagination. Say SUN is zooming along, and spies PLUTO from his rear view mirror. He pulls ahead to build a full lap distance between them (negative applying), tugging PLUTO in his wake. And say, in doing so, SUN has also reduced the number of laps between him and MARS (negative separating), who's been just ahead this whole time. Only a few more laps to go.


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Ceridwen
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posted April 10, 2015 04:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the positive and negative values relate to the aspect phase, waning/ waxing.

You count from the faster planet and see if it moves towards a conjunction with the other or an opposition .

So in the synastry with Mr Sag I have a conjunction of my Sun to his Moon with positive value. It has an orb of about 2-3 degrees; his Moon as the faster on 28 Sag has just left the conjunction to my Sun on 26 Sag and is moving in direction of the opposition, hence it is a waxing aspect.


my Neptune squares his Mars at 1 degree orb with a negative Value.

It is a separating aspect because his Mars is at 11 degrees and my Neptune at 10 degrees, so his Mars as the faster one moves away from the exact aspect.

However since his Mars is in Virgo, and my Neptune in Sag, it moves towards a conjunction (as it will touch Sag before it can reach Gemini), .

For his Eros it is the other way round. there is a square, too, at one and a a half degree.

But since his Eros is on 8 degrees and my Neptune on 10 degrees, and Eros is faster, it means Eros is moving into the aspect, it is in its building or applying phase.

However since his Eros is in Pisces and my Neptune in Sag, the next point his Eros will cross is the opposition in Gemini, so it is in theother half of the cycle, and hence there is a negative value to the aspect (moving away from the conjunction).


The reference frame in these cycles are always the conjunction and the opposition.

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Ceridwen
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posted April 10, 2015 05:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is reflective of the cycle of the Moon, with the two turning points of New Moon (conjunction) and Full Moon (opposition).

But you can trace that with any two planetary pairs.
Forrest does that for example in his book of the Moon with the Venus-Mars-pair, Jupiter-Saturn and Uranus-Neptune as well.
Also adding the cycle of Moon to the South Node.

But generally you can do that with planets in synastry as well, even if ther eis no aspect, they are in some aspect phase.

For example:

my Venus on 6 Capricorn or 276° of the whole circle, and someone`s Mars on 29 Scorpio or 239°.

There is not really an aspect, but my Venus is 37° ahead of his Mars, that means it is in the waxing new phase, comparable to a New Moon in terms of Venus and Mars (the waxing crescent phase starts at the semisquare-point 45°- which is why we should not underestimate 8th harmonic aspects, they constitute the transition-points in the lunar cycle after all )

It is in the waxing phase cause Venus moves faster and is headed in the direction of the opposition (or full phase).

This waxing phase is like watching a seed being planted and growing into a full tree. It is a new emergence here. Something fresh, young, new, hence the waxing phase is usually very future oriented, and bringing something new into your life, there is inexperience coming with it but also the thirst for making experiences, for discovering unchartered territory (ESPECIALLY if we ware still in the 1st phase, the 00°-45° of that cycle).

Interestingly my own natal Venus-Mars-cylce is in that very same phase (as my Venus is just 31° ahead of my Mars).

It is sort of "young".

Forrest gives this interpretation:

"New soul contacts being made. Innocence. Naivete. Sexual charisma - often unrecognized by the person who posesses it. The freedom to establish new romantic and sexual patterns. patterns which will later bind us, but which we enter into voluntarity. Claiming one`s sexual autonomy and confidence."


Now once the point of the opposition has been crossed (we treat the slower planet as if it is standing still to see that), the phase changes into the waning phase, it is sort of a return to the conjunction to start a new phase.

In a way the waning cycle feels more "old". You`ve been round the block some times before, and have gathered all these experiences (and possibly some traumas along the way), which you have to apply now or resolve.
In this way, yes, the waning cycle could be termed more karmic I suppose.
Also the closer you get to the conjunction again, the more tired and exhausted you could possibly feel. But also wise and mature.

Whereas with the waxing phase you establish new connections, you might evaluate those connections in the waning phase. Are they worth it?
Or do they have to be left behind.
You sort of already know what you are walking into, or at least have a sense, cause you have been there before (on the waxing cycle).

Well, in my own chart I have Venus square Pluto. Venus in capricorn is ahead of Pluto in Libra, so it is waxing.
The Venus-Pluto theme comes like a shock, unexpected to say the least, but with the naivete of the young, I still may be eager to experience it, cause how bad can it get?

Well if you have Venus in Cancer, in waning squaret to Pluto in libra you are more hesitating probably cause you KNOW just HOW bad it can get! And it can get pretty rough, something the young waxing girl or boy has no idea of really. as it is their first round on that Venus-Pluto-carousel.

On the other hand in a waning aspect you probably can deal with it better, and are not just as shellshocked when it really hits, cause you have been there before. You know what to expect in a way.


Anyway returning to the aspect of Venus and Mars in the begining. Let`s say Venus had been on 202° or 22 Libra, and hence 37° behind that Mars on 29° Scorpio.
It would be the same phase (New), but in the waning cycle.
here the interpretation reads as following:

"Mystical feeling of connection. Sacred sex. I feel like I have known you before. Finishing karmic business. Spiritual relationship. Platonic connection. Completing the work. Revisiting the past. Release. Endings. Forgiveness. Tragic Romance. Loneliness and despair."

(you always get the good with the bad. )

Of course it definitely depends on if there are aspects and what aspects. This is just a general interpretation of the phase. It`s sort of like a 12th house emphasis. While the waxing new phase is more of a 1st house character.


Unfortunately astro-com signifies the waxing aspect with a negative and the waning aspect with a positive value. Personally I would have thought it easier if it was the other way round. But I guess it is just a matter of taste.

Anyway you also have to consider if a planet is retrograde, cause then the direction is reversed, and have a look at the actual speed of planets.

While usually Venus is faster than Mars, if it gets stationary it might occasionally be slower.

For example in my progressions I have an extremely slow Mercury, because it is preparing for going retograde. While it is usually the fastest planet after the Moon, in my progressions it is even slower than Mars, the slowest of the personal planets (generally).

In fact it might be interesting to check the progressed cycles as well.

In terms of Venus and Mars for me that is.

Venus on 326° and Mars on 274°, so Venus is 52° ahead of Mars, and that means it has entered the waxing crescent phase, characterized by the emergence of sexual identity. (in the New phase the seed is planted, but you donīt quite see it yet, it is in the crescent phase that things get slowly subtly visible).

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Ceridwen
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posted April 10, 2015 06:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Those phases might be interesting in the composite as well.

In the composite with Mr Mars on 239°, both cycles are complementary, Moon-Sun waning, Venus-Mars waxing

Moon is 351° ahead Sun
Venus is 22° ahead Mars,

So in both cases it is about finishing up things, to prepare for a new cycle in terms of the Sun-Moon cycle, but it already is a new development in the Venus-Mars-cycle.


in the Davision it is:

Moon 351° ahead of Sun or 9 degrees behind, so also the last waning phase.

Venus 80° behind Mars or 280° ahead of Mars (the last quarter of the waning phase)

So most of it is waning, returning home so to speak. bringing things to a closure.
Except for the Venus-Mars phase int he composite. Interesting.
Especially with Venus on the North Node in composite.

In the composite with Mr Sag is it

Moon 26° ahead of Sun (still in the New Moon phase)

Venus 83° ahead of Mars (waxing crescent phase)

Funny enough it seems like a complete contrast to the other composite, while the other one is about endings, finishing things, completing a cycle (can you say karmic? I mean old karma), this here are the 2 freshest phases possible in the waxing cycle. This is about starting a new cycle.

in Davison

Moon 23° ahead of Sun - so also the New Mon phase (waxing)

Venus 2° ahead of Mars - so VERY definitely a waxing New phase, and here in this instance even in a rather close conjunction.


This is pretty shocking in its clarity. lol

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Blind writer
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From: Texas, USA
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posted April 10, 2015 10:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blind writer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@Ceri - You basically said exactly what I did, only in a much smarter and more intelligent sounding way.

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