posted December 25, 2002 10:17 PM         

First of all, death is a part of life, and is inevitable. Right now, your white blood cells are digesting the dirt out of any bacteria or parasite they hit into. So, no matter how gentle and obsessive you are, your immune system is a killer.

If you become a fruitarian, you are killing yourself, because you are cutting protein and fat out of your diet. Every time I look at pictures of these yogis who apparently are vegetarians, they look like someone dry cleaned them. So, you avoid killing animals, and proceed to kill yourself through malnutrition, congradulations. Besides, fruits contain microbes and insects you kill with your stomach acid. Oh no.

If you are a part of this society, you are a killer. Our society kills animals in record numbers not in the context of food. Even if you are a vegetarian, likely some product you use has been tested on animals, contains animals, or has involved the suffering of animals. For example, if you eat crops like corn and wheat or live in a city, you are contributing to the habitat destruction that causes species to go extinct.

So, in order to stop killing completely, you would have to shut down your immune system, starve yourself, and leave North America for some desert somewhere.

I hope you agree with me this is ridiculous.

I prefer to believe there is an order to things, that we are meant to eat and kill unsentient animals, like the Bible says.

Some fruitarians argue that if you eat fruit or a leaf you are not killing the plant. True. But that is like saying if I take a bite of your arm that is not killing you either therefore is a karmically just action.

posted December 25, 2002 10:21 PM         

It is. What goes up must come down. Being immortal is about extended lifespan, but who wants to be around when the sun burns out and the universe expands and cools.

Second, being immortal does not mean you do not die, at least partially. Every day wear and tear on your body destroys and kills x number of cells in your body. They are replaced. Immortality is really about finding the right balance of death and life, not trying to pretend death does not exist.

posted December 26, 2002 02:24 AM         

Still, I don't understand the whole man vs insect thing. Explain, please.

posted December 26, 2002 02:45 AM         

But if we come back as bugs- I'll be doomed having lived in California and lived in many apartments where me and my mom killed ants upon ants upon ants.

I know my ancestors the Mexicans used to eat bugs! Lots of different kinds, they still do. Now I try to identify with culture but worm taco just does not appeal to me.
Ok sorry back to topic- man vs. insect.

posted December 26, 2002 03:09 AM         

>Still, I don't understand the whole man vs
>insect thing. Explain, please.

It was a joke. I suppose it undermines my arguments when I make wacky jokes, but being funny is more important than being right, because if you are right nobody gives a damn, but if you are funny, at least you get a chuckle.

We share the world with bugs. They have a lot of vital roles like..um...crawling on stuff, and...uh... scaring people, making us itch.

posted December 28, 2002 10:25 AM         

Something else us humans do is personalize, we assume dogs and cats and whales and dolphins all think and feel the way we do. And then we go on this whole dogs are people in fur clothing crusade, determined to give dogs jobs and social insurance numbers. To some extent this is cute, to some extent it is cruel (to ourselves) and ridiculous. All of a sudden you feel bad about leaving your goldfish to die when you go on holiday, or feel like you should clean up oil spills personally to save the whales. Nursing adorable baby animals back to health with a bottle becomes your mission in life, not because it makes any sense or improves your karma, but because your conscience is a mess.

Prioritize. Accept that souls incarnating into human bodies are the most messed up, the most needing of attention and forgiveness (never mind deserving... needing is the keyword) Deal with your family, marriage, friends, boss, deal with your entourage first, the issues that are there, because that entourage of karma and people was placed there carefully because it was the most important karma to focus on. Being immortal is about having perfect karma, but it makes little sense to get all weepy over animals when there are more pressing issues waiting.

posted February 02, 2003 02:11 AM           

The point to me is that I try in every way to love my fellow animals/plants. To not set out to kill them or kill them intentionally. You can try and avoid things used for animal testing, you may not, but the fact that you have done so without your knowledge is not your fault.

Some people may be obsessed, but I just try to live my life and respect the life of others including animals. True, they may harm me but two wrongs never made a right and most spiders/snakes etc only bite if provoked.

I've lost my train of thought...but I hope you get my point.

Also if you think death is inevitable then it will be.

posted February 02, 2003 11:26 AM         

ahem.

Once I was in the office of a friend of mine, and she noticed a big hairy spider crawling menacingly to her. This woman was a true arachnaphobe, and I knew the reasons why. She cried for me to kill it, and I did. *squish* I didn't feel particularly bad for the little thing, I was too busy worried about the nerves of my friend.

Now, people, I notice; spend a lot of energy intellectualizing their actions as a way to somehow avoice their karmic destiny. It doesn't work that way. In my story, I could say that I have defeated karma because my actions were steeped in good will and benevolence. (I know "defeat" is a strong word, but I'm a Tiger, and I'm all about winning!!)

The fact is, I'm sure I haven't/won't slip away from my karmic actions because I was being a nice guy at the time. Now I'm not saying a piano is going to fall on my head (ummm, "cancel"), but perhaps this is why I wake up in the middle of the night feeling something crawling across my belly ... only to find nothing there. I dunno ...

The good part of the story is on another day, I'm in her office, again. She's happy, her business is making money. Then a fly buzzes by her head, and she scowls at me with a Cancerian twinkle in her eye, "How could you let a fly in MY Office!?!?"

"Well, you were bound to have more flies after I killed the spider."

That was the first time I've known her to laugh at her own fear. That was worth the karmic retribution!!

posted August 26, 2003 09:28 PM         

Killing anything will create sadness one way or another. So if I eat red meat, then a week later, I will experience sadness and agression for whatever reason I have, as my karmic debt. Eating meat and killing bugs will block me from opening my 3rd eye. I will still be immortal but with no special powers until I can cut myself off. The ultimate goal, as an immortal, is to become an ascended being, correct? Once you become ascended, you can go to ends of the universe for as long as you damn well please. Right?

posted September 05, 2003 04:02 PM         

quote:

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Peace really does begin within us. Your discussion about sharing life with creatures, was really right on. Some of them will negotiate with you. Spiders will pay attention to your requests. A friend of mine did not want any spiders in his house and announced this edict to them. He gave them so many days to move on. On the deadline day, they were gone. Occassionally a newcomer arrived and he told him the same thing. He was always respectful, courteous, and firm. His wife did not mind spiders. So they modified this edict to: they could be in the house but must remain unseen. Webs would show up, but no spiders were ever seen.

My partner is planting 10 acres into orchard and garden in preparation for building and living there. She has elk, deer, all the little creatures, insects, slugs, and kangaroo mice. Most of them have negotiated with her. Slugs and kangaroo mice pay no attention to her. To slugs she told them that she was placing beer out for them. They had the choice to drink it or not. It was their call. She is considering making screens to cover new plants in her garden to keep out the mice, so they have a chance to grow. She allots certain areas to others and insists that certain areas be left for her and her family. She is finally making portable cages to cover blueberry bushes so they can get a good start. She is never discourteous to anything.

My garden has a blue jay, a crow, a rabbit, that come every day to eat what I have dug up. The rabbit eats elsewhere so far. All of them learned to coexist immediately without fear. A squirrel buries things. I talk to everything. The crow is the most responsive. We will see how it goes as veggies begin to grow. I am putting in frames around raised beds with black cloth in all the pathways. It will be no till from now on. When I work the soil with my hands, I alert the worms so they can move before I turn them up. My, I do love to work soil! The real pleasure of being retired.

I was really tried one year when my peas were invaded by aphids. It was my first experience with them. I put out crisis calls to my friends about how to get rid of them. They only helped me let them be. And a huge army of landbugs arrived. I lost the peas but the aphids did not spread.

I can not relate to your experiences of fear of creatures. Bees and wasps come up to examine me (I probably smell) they buzz around decide I'm not a flower and leave. In the northwest, we have much fewer household pests then the south. (I remember roaches when I lived in Florida. They just walked in the door.) I catch insects that have gotten caught inside and turn them outside. Everything has consciousness and hears our thoughts. Everything reacts to fear. If they feel fear from you they know there is something there to fear and it will be you they fear and will react accordingly.

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posted September 24, 2003 10:39 PM         

As far as immortality and spiritual evolution, I always think this is tricky. It's like prayer. I've read somewhere (I'm pretty sure it was the bible) that Jesus can listen to your prayers before you say them. It's kind of like Karma, or intention, but he will care and love for you if you know he's there without realing seeking any thing. Some might say that I'm mixing many beliefs, but it's my own philosophy also, so I'm entitled I tried the path of the fruitarian, but I realised it wasn't really for me. I think mostly because I was very lazy. At the time I lived on caramel tea rings. Once I moved, they were no longer on the path of my way home, so I had to think of something else. Eventually I started red meat again because I just thought it was easier. I'm hoping at some stage I will go back to the fruit thing, I'm probably just not ready yet.

As far as intentions go, I always balance this with indifference. Linda opened my eyes to the fact that I can be indifferent to everything, so I tried to change - become more positive and in the now. See, if you don't project good thoughts, then you are not altering Karma as Karma is in action. You can live with good intent, but without doing anything and hence nothing will really happen. If, however, you strive to do good, then your life should increase in enlightenment and karma should return.

However, I'm always of the thought that my love for everything should be enough to live a happy life, however I constantly learn that it isn't. Actions speak louder than words...