posted November 18, 2003 04:48 AM              

anyone who submits to god and devotes the worship to god ALONE. thus, one may be Jewish , a Christian, a Buddhist, a Hindu , or a Muslim. God will bring all these together and will reconcile their hearts.

posted November 18, 2003 11:12 AM              

Meet one who, yet again, has been humbled.

Thank you,

posted November 18, 2003 11:26 AM            

John took so many liberties it is difficult to sort thru his piety and the realitys.

juniperb

posted November 18, 2003 11:11 PM              

Thank you for posting the other topic (The Path) here for us to see. I have browsed it already and am looking forward to ingesting it in full.

Sincerely,
divinia

P.S. Thank you for your kind words. They really touched me.

posted November 19, 2003 04:28 PM            

Divinia You posted at 11:11

juniperb

posted November 19, 2003 04:35 PM            

Thanks for the insight Daf

Divinia, look, you posted at 11:11
juniperb

posted November 19, 2003 08:29 PM              

I must admit, it's a bit intimidating posting on a thread already graced with Meili's presence. But a question nevertheless - do you differentiate between Jesus and the Christ? Jesus certainly should not be worshipped as a god, but the Christ spirit is a part of the Godhead, the Trinity, yes? So that I might better understand.

posted November 19, 2003 11:23 PM              

The understanding is that there is no triune God in three parts. There is one God, the Creator, Father of all. There is his Word, and the True understanding of that Word, what you might call the Holy Spirit. And there was Jesus, a Messenger who understood and lived by that Word.

There is God, a Message (which is not God), and a man (who is not God.)

That is how the conspirators of the early Christian church managed to slip the lie past us, and it is why this goes against the Will of God.

For us to believe that God is three AND that He is one, was very slick packaging for the worship of multiple gods, one of whom is a man, Jesus.

There was another message that John has shared with us, where he tries to show that regardless of whether or not you still want to believe in a Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you should only worship the Father.

posted November 20, 2003 04:31 AM              

With all due respect (and I mean that), why "the Father". so patriarcal.

I do not believe in the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. In fact, I trust in very little the church tells me. I believe in the the Father, the Mother, and the Christ Spirit. I was made in the Creator's image and I am three. Mind, soul, spirit. Also I am one. Should the Creator be the same?

In regards to "mutiple gods", aren't polytheistic religions only recognizing multiple ASPECTS of God. Whether they realize this or not. After all, there are many aspects to me and to you and, again, we were all created in the Creator's image.

posted November 20, 2003 07:29 AM              

I think your analysis that polytheistic religions actually are revealing different aspects of a monotheistic deity is a very astute point. Thank you for that insight!

I also agree that Divinity, because of its undeniably creative nature, would have to (of necessity) be both male and female. Or at least it would have to be a blending of each principle which is beyond our limited human comprehension.

I do think that religion often obscures the purity of the Spirit and avoid it; however, I am a *staunch* proponent of spirituality. If anyone is interested in the Path I have been on thus far, I would be happy to post it.

Sincerely,
divinia

posted November 20, 2003 01:12 PM              

In Christian teaching, there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit, therefore, those were the terms that were addressed.

My own belief is in God, the Creator, who is neither male, nor female. The Mother (Earth) is a component of God, not a manifestation of God, not some sort of God-spinoff. The Father, in reality, is the Sun, not God. That is why it is prevalent in Christian doctrine..remember the original point of this post: Current Christian practice worships the Sun-god and his son-god Mithras. So the Father and the Son take on new meaning when put into that context.

Just as a heart valve is not a human, so a component of God is not God. Since God is everything, you cannot have multiple manifestations of God. Anything that is less than everything is less than God.

By definition, there can only be one Everything. Therefore, there is only one God, who is All. Any divergence from this Truth, is incorrect.

All true paths lead to this understanding of a divine Oneness. Unfortunately, the "Christian" path, not only makes a wrong turn at a crucial point, it compounds this, as you pointed out, by adding patriarchal bias.

If we are to recognize multiple aspects of God, why stop there? The reason should be obvious if we look at past instances where human beings have looked upon the "multiple aspects" of divinity.

Weren't the Romans and Greeks only recognizing multiple aspects of God's creation by worshipping the various Zodiacal influences as gods? Aren't Celtics and Druids only worshipping mutliple aspects of the creativity of God when they assign divinity to the various natural influences and start worshipping those influences? "Where is the harm?", one might ask. A better question is probably, where is God?

A thousand years after you start worshipping his various creations, where is devotion, appreciation and love of God? It is gone, replaced by devotion and worship of God's creations. Soon it's "the tree worshippers versus the rock worshippers" all over again.

I'm not sure what God's take on the whole thing is, but I know I'd get pretty upset if people kept worshipping the snowman I made in my front yard and leaving HIM presents instead of me. I'd get pretty irked if people started giving credit to a planet I made for all of the good things it gives to them, instead of thanking ME for making the planet. There's a difference between appreciating Creation and worshipping Creation as divine. A huge difference when you start to think about it.

One final note, if you have read the tone of John's messages, which are not to be confused with my writings, you WILL notice a strong tone of Father, Son..etc.

Remember, John seems to be addressing members of the Christian faith in particularly, although not exclusively. You can see this by running down the list of woes, and finding that he addresses current "Christian" practices almost exclusively.

John's messages are Truth in a very strict sense of the word, but they seem to be tailored to the "Christian" crowd, and that should probably be taken into consideration when reading them.

(When you think about it, it wouldn't make much sense for John to be delivering a message to Buddhists, or to Jews, since his testimony would have much less credence among them.)

Good points all, hope that clears some thing up.

posted November 20, 2003 10:29 PM              

When I refer to "the Mother" I do not mean mother earth. Our little planet's loveliness notwithstanding, permanent it is not. Our race will leave it behind someday, just as our souls cast off their mortal flesh temples when they have outlived their usefullness. I appreciate and love and respect nature but I do not worship it.

I have read John's messages. I do not profess to understand them. I am disappointed in the masculine tone you spoke of. Perhaps I am reading more into it than I should. But as a woman I feel left out.

I agree wholeheartedly that tearing apart the face of God into a multiple number of lesser gods can be slippery slope. And a neverending one too! Still, when I look into the face of Kwan Yin then into the very different face of Kali I know they are both fragments of the One. Exploring these different fragments helps my little brain better understand "that which is beyond our limited human comprehension."

(Speaking of divinia, I would love to learn more about your Path. It seems to have served you well.)

For what it's worth, I agree with you completely that the Book of Revelations is the only part of the New Testament largely left to it's own devices. And for just the same reasons.

I've always hesitated to take communion. Never felt quite right about it. Never quite sure why. I have only taken it once. At my mom's funeral. And I did that just for her.

posted November 20, 2003 10:59 PM              

The holiest book ever written is all around you, in every chance encounter, in every leaf on every tree.

The Word of God is whispered in our hearts, no doubt these whispers led you away from the communion. You heard, and listened.

Likely you drank some juice and ate some bread out of respect for the ceremony that signified your mother's passing, yet blood and flesh did not touch your tongue as you did so, for your heart was with the voice of God and not the voice of man.

It pains me that you feel left out of John's message, and yet it doesn't.

For if you are not included in his list of woes, then you are truly blessed. If you have not succumbed to the Son worship of which he speaks, then your footsteps have truly led you down a Path that defines the Way.

If you do not feel that his words are directed at you then REJOICE, dear, sing a song of joy, for you are definately fortunate to have come so far in relative safety.

John's messages thus far have taken the tone of expose'. He is not addressing your transgressions, perhaps because you are not a traveler on that particular Path toward which his attentions have been directed.

You are blessed, love, but then, it seems that you know this.

Wish those same blessings upon the people to whom John's messages HAVE been directed. Hope that they correct their paths before the moment of Awakening.

posted November 21, 2003 05:41 PM              

********************************************

Creating Our Own Reality of God (Naming Your God)

I am sorry that I have taken so long to respond to this post. At first I thought it would be a simple question to answer. Then I realized that it was *much* harder than I had imagined, especially after I read the other brilliant responses.

As some of you know I was raised in the Southern Baptist church, a fundamental Protestant sect of Christianity. Being the person that I am, this religion did not work for me for 2 major reasons. First of all, I am a female Libra. As Linda Goodman wrote in Love Signs, most female Ariens and Librans are born feminists, and I am no exception. I have been getting up on my soapbox to spew feminist diatribes ever since I learned to speak. I could never accept that Original Sin was Eve’s fault, thereby causing her and her daughters to be subjugated to their husbands and fathers ever since. That just does not work for me.

Secondly, my Jupiter is in Libra conjunct (2 degrees) my Sun. Consequently, fairness (or my perception of it) is a major component of my personal philosophy/religion. The Baptist religion teaches that only those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour are “saved” and can go to heaven. That just didn’t ring true for me. I couldn’t believe that God would sentence “non-believers” to an eternity in hell, a lake of fire, especially not the people who were good, kind, and lived morally. It didn’t feel right. It left me empty and searching for something different.

My first glimpse of the truth as I see it came in high school. I was introduced to a school of thought known as Transcendentalism. This philosophy taught that God was in everything -- nature, animals, and human souls. This appealed to me, but I did not research it further. When I went away to college I took a course called Humanities which combined Literature, Religion, and World History. There I learned about the Deist theory of religion which proposed that God was merely a “clockmaker” who made the world and set it into motion, but who had no active influence upon its daily workings. Basically, we were on our own. That was shortly followed by an introduction to Existentialism which I believe says that this life is all there is. After death we drift into nothingness. These philosophies intrigued me, but did nothing to fill my empty soul.

I never searched in depth for something to believe. 3 years ago, a friend recommended that I read “There Is A River” by Thomas Sugrue, a loving biography of Edgar Cayce. I was definitely touched by the life story of Cayce, but it was the Afterword that really made a difference in my life. In it, it described the origin of the human soul and its nature to the Source, that which some of us call God. From that point on, I felt at peace with my beliefs. I believe in reincarnation. I believe in a God that created us to be with Him/Her eternally; however, it is 100% up to us to make that happen. As in Pinocchio’s quest to be a real boy, we have to be brave, truthful, and unselfish. More than that, we have to be completely one, in thought and in action, with God. I do not believe in a God who wishes to have us bow down to worship Him/Her. I do believe, however, that we must strive to emulate God in all that we do and all that we are.

I believe that God aches for us much like parents who ache for their missing children. I do envision a personage, but I do not believe that God is confined to human form. Neither do I believe that God is masculine or feminine. To my mind, God would of necessity be both.

I believe that I have felt the presence of God at least once in my life. One night when I was praying I felt this enveloping warmth and darkness (that surprised me -- black is not evil) and I was filled with bliss and peace. I do not remember what was in my mind at the time or the intention of my prayer, but I cannot forget that wonderful feeling. I wish for the world to feel it all of the time. Amen.

Sincerely,
divinia

posted November 21, 2003 06:37 PM              

The notion that Christianity, or the teachings of Christ are patriarchal in concept is the result of conditioning to a lie proposed by men, and lack of insight into the environment in which one Messenger or another has had to deliver the Message.

Was Buddha in disagreement with Jesus? Was Muhammad in disagreement with either? A cursory examination of either or, might lead one to the conclusion that they do disagree.

For instance, in the Qur'an, it is ADAM that takes the fruit and forces Eve to partake. Is this a patriarchal view? It could be perceived as such if, say we focus on the fact that he FORCED her to eat of the fruit. With THAT perspective in mind, EVE would be the forceful one in the Judeo-Christian account. Whereas Buddha would be seen as a heretic for disposing with the notion of God altogether...now wouldn't he?

Yes all of these great ones were Messengers from the Almighty..delivering the same message in three distinctly different regions, to three distinctly different audiences.

It is ONE thing to embrace our philosophies and our God, quite another to put off the lies of men on His Messengers, regardless of the context of the Message.

What does Jesus say about worshipping God? Let's see how different it is from your own philosophy divinia, before you kill the Messenger for the misinterpretation of the Message:

"You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden. Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house. Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

There is how he asks you to worship God. Sounds a lot like what you were saying, doesn't it?

See, Jesus wasn't a Baptist, nor was he a Catholic, and he wasn't a sexist. He was a blessed man, who knew God, and who was tasked with delivering a Message and a proof to a region ruled by sexist, patriarchal, monotheistic Jewish men.

Asking them to follow the example of a Hermaphroditic God, would have been a bit of a stretch. Particularly since the Message he was sent to deliver was not rooted in your, nor my notion of what is the appropriate sexual context for God. His message was not even centered around God's sex. To disregard the message, for something as petty as the context in which it puts the sex of God is certainly beneath all of us, and yet part and parcel of our human behaviors and conditioning.

The message was this: do what God would have you do, and live forever.

That was Buddha's message to deliver, that was Muhammad's message to deliver, and that was Jesus' message to deliver. We now know that that is John's message to deliver.

Seems that we know one more thing as well..that's daf's message to deliver, and that's divinia's message to deliver.

Seems to me, you've been pitting allies against each other love.

posted November 21, 2003 09:30 PM              

quote:

---

Sorry for the tone, I believe strongly in the validity of the many Paths and couldn't let the disregard of God worship stand like that. Perhaps I should have. I apologize if it offends.

---

Dear Daf:

I feel very confused by your response. I feel sorrow in my heart. I evidently do not express myself well either in written word or verbally. I do not disregard God worship. I just have my own way of doing it. I believe that the correct way to worship God is to emulate him as best as one can. I believe that Jesus himself would say that this is true. I quote, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)" My interpretation of this is that no one can unite with God (e.g., go to Heaven) without being as Jesus was. That is to say that one must be as attuned with the will of God as is possible for that person. Gee, I feel very sad that I could not get this across.

Sincerely,
divinia

posted November 22, 2003 12:56 AM              

There is nothing to be sorry for. You have communicated what you meant and the "time before" is gone. This is the "time after" and there is so much hope in hearts as wide open and unconcerned with ego as yours.

Such a bright, bright future lies ahead for the human race with roses such as you and all of these others. Don't be sad...just shine love, like the sparkling glimmer-flash of light that you are...shine like you're shining right now and don't stop, no matter what.

posted November 22, 2003 01:34 PM              

I know that the seekers here may be in pain because of their doubts and feel self-recrimination. I want whoever is here to know that these feelings are okay. They are still good people. I don't mean to be on a soapbox and I am certainly no theologian or guru. I am just a fellow seeker. My only hope is to ease others along their way.

Sincerely,
divinia