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Author Topic:   Your opinions and comments are requested
dafremen
unregistered
posted November 27, 2002 07:09 PM           Edit/Delete Message
I had something that I wanted to get off of my chest. About 2 years ago, I started shopping around for a website on which to conduct a social experiment of sorts. (Fear not, the experiment is over and I wouldn't think of betraying anyone's trust as I did in this experiment.)

Before I get into the experiment, I'd like to give you folks a little background information to maybe help you understand where I was coming from when I decided to do this.

My wife of 13 years is Cancer to a T and one of the things I noticed almost immediately about her (and my daughter, also Cancer) was the manner in which she reacts to hurt. When she feels hurt or emotional insecure, she becomes a VERY grumpy, person who can say some of the meanest things that you ever heard. We used to fight a lot before I learned that she was lashing out in reaction to some pain or emotional hurt that she felt. It got me to thinking about some of these kids who run into schools shooting up classrooms and things. I began to wonder if there were symptoms exhibited BEFORE that noone had noticed, or which had been misinterpreted by the people around them.

What I began to wonder was, are so called BAD people, really good people who at some point, started to act out their hurt and were rebuffed by society, because their way of hurting was not socially acceptable? We are generally full of 10 kinds of compassion if someone is obviously hurting, but what about someone that appears cruel? That is hurtful to others? In particular, how do we as a society tend to react to these "BAD" people EVEN in the face of evidence to the contrary? Evidence that shows that they are really kind and good inside? I got my answer, but I wanted some opinions. Ok, now about my experiment. I'm not proud of what I did, in fact I'm ashamed of myself, I hurt and betrayed some people to do this and I can't honestly say that it was worth it. I got my answer, but I think the price was too steep.

I came on as a character who was CYNICAL to the nth degree. Egotistical as all get-up (ok so that part wasn't much of a stretch) and sarcastic as hell, reacting to the words of others with a complete disdain for their feelings. (not necessarily crude, but definitely insensitive) In particular, I made a point of challenging all those who reacted to me with sarcasm, hate, dislike or criticism. I basically acted out the part of my wife with a chip on her shoulder. I did this for TWO years, changing the character, becoming moody and defensive as it seemed appropriate. I switched up and lashed out so often that it became really hard for many folks to tell who I was. Here was the catch though: I always kept my poetry true to my own personality. (I am SUPER empathetic and caring...anyone that doubts me should have seen me shedding tears in my bathroom as I wrote that poem for eternal's cat, Sunday. I really felt for her and the truth is, I felt really bad the entire time I was conducting this experiment.)
The OTHER thing that I did was answer all emails out of character..in other words, as ME. The exception were emails criticizing or judging me. In those emails I played the part, but without the lashing out, just as arrogantly as possible to give the impression of my character being "himself." The REAL person was there to see, the tenderness and caring were there to see. On several occasions, I wrote to suicidal teens, or depressed people with my usual empathy, trying to comfort them. Like I said, the clues were there.

The question was, HOW often would people see through it and give the dafremen character the kind words and acceptance that were his REAL need and the cure for his behavior? How often would they lash out and retaliate?

The conclusion should be obvious. More often than not, society DOESN'T see the hurt behind the lashing out, the acting out. They only see a mean person with mean words doing mean things. Their response is to retaliate, and the person who is hurting? They react in kind, the same defensive reaction that started the whole horrible snowball rolling in the first place. I am of the opinion that it is, in a VAST MAJORITY of cases, this sort of reaction on the part of society, that makes bad people of many good people. The lashing out eventually becomes habitual for the person who is hurting, and once they get to that point, it becomes more and more difficult to bring them back into society. Society becomes the enemy.

I would also like to point out that not EVERYONE reacted spitefully or in a critical manner. Some saw through the B.S. to the real person under the act. They slowly saw the signs of hurt or frustration and reacted with compassion, understanding or at the very least a sort of tolerance. This at least demonstrates that it is POSSIBLE to help these hurting people. I also tend to think that this knee-jerk reaction on the part of society is a disease of sorts. Why is there compassion (the cure for hurt and pain) when the hurtful emotions are demonstrated in a socially acceptable manner only? Hurt people, like hurt animals, don't always behave in a rational manner. Why is it that so many of us fail to recognize the symptoms of hurt when someone, mild mannered, or with kind tendencies begins to act in a contrary manner?

In addition to helping me discuss and sort through these questions, any questions or comments that you may have are welcomed. I've already apologized profusely (and will continue to do so) to everyone involved. Some people have actually started to think about it, and it shows in the way they are reacting to OTHER people who actually ARE exhibiting the symptoms of hurt in a not so usual manner. Don't think for a second that I am proud of what I did for any reason. I'm terribly ashamed, like I said, and I'm also very sad for the people who were open and honest in their feelings and got hurt during the course of my BAD guy act. I succeeded in fostering more of what I am absolutely AGAINST, all to satisfy my curiosity. It was atrocious of me and I am TRULY sorry. If any of you feel the urge to chide or scold me, please, I understand completely and accept that as part of the consequence for my actions. My beastly behavior aside though, the question still begs to be asked: What can we do about this trend toward selective compassion in society? This "Dafremen disease" if you will? (I use the term as something of a penance...like Benedict Arnold for traitor or naming myself after the plague or something.) How can we stop it from being the mechanism whereby many cold monsters are created?

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tash479
Knowflake

Posts: 165
From: columbus, ga
Registered: Sep 2001

posted November 27, 2002 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tash479     Edit/Delete Message
Sounds interesting. Sounds like you were sincerely trying to find out answers to your questions and had no intention of hurting others but in the end you still caused pain. I must admit that at times when someone is being nasty to me, I might not try and see the other side if it is someone that I don't know really well. All I can say is that as long as you are truly sorry for what you did and are sincere in your apology to those that you hurt, then maybe in time those same people can forgive you. But by all means, apologize.

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Its easy to get a reputation for wisdom. Its only necessary to live long, speak little and do less.
-P.D. James

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Sher bear
Knowflake

Posts: 164
From: Canada
Registered: Nov 2002

posted November 27, 2002 09:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sher bear     Edit/Delete Message
Very interesting - and I have to queation whether this too is not part of your on going experiment into human behaviour?
In any case, people are quick to turn their cheek to people in pain....People can't be responsible for their own actions and feelings - so what makes you think they'd run around caring about others?(meaning the persona you used) Odviously this is not the proper way to treat anyboby - including ourselves.....People have to first heal themselves (self-love) before they can with genuine intent make an impact on society...By purifying ones soul, one is than able to share that love and energy their community....Most people are far too concearned about things that don't really matter....Instead people should see the soul in themselves as well as in others so that the world could heal it's hurt....Compassion isn't nessesarlily something you're born with...It's emotion and training that takes time and dertimination. Compassion is a result of wisdom....Most people are not motivated towards the rights and feelings of others......And most people don't realize that negative actions - whatever they may be creates an enviroment unstable for all it's members...Many people manipulate, are ignorant - and without any wisdom they are short-sighted........All souls long for happiness, but most people lack the disipline or insight it takes to acheive this goal....In my mind compassion = happiness, but it is something one has to cultivate..........anyways, I don't know, I could truly write forever about this sort of stuff, and it deeply saddens me that people are so one-sided, egotistical, and of course greedy.......All I know for sure (not that I really Know anything) is if I make a conscious effort to be patient, and compassionate with all the members within society, than I'm one more person able to set an example for other's.............


blezzingS
Sher bear

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Sher bear
Knowflake

Posts: 164
From: Canada
Registered: Nov 2002

posted November 27, 2002 10:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sher bear     Edit/Delete Message
P.s...I was quick to post, so sorry about grammer, and Spelling......

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proxieme
unregistered
posted November 27, 2002 11:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Hm. I think. I think that. I think that it's good to show infinate compassion, but where does one draw the line?
What would you consider "drawing the line"?
Lashing back, no - no, that's obviously wrong. But what about cutting the other person off after due time? One can only let so much psychic pain be inflicted upon themselves, right? After that, they'd be useless. Start lashing out themselves at other people (or at themselves), tho quite unawares.

That made no sense, but I've said my peace.
I don't know if what you did was right or wrong or indifferent, but I think that it may have been useful, esp if those that you touched with your seeming anger and false spite have been/will be given the chance to know the truth and to then duly reflect on their reactions to your action.
They might change. They may take a beat or two before responding in kind to cruelty.

And I know that fish shouldn't drink, tho it seems to come so naturally.

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moonshadow
Knowflake

Posts: 273
From: Johannesburg,South Africa
Registered: Jun 2002

posted November 28, 2002 01:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moonshadow     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Dafremen

Just for interest sake, what is your sign?

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Bernadette1216
Knowflake

Posts: 504
From:
Registered: Aug 2002

posted November 28, 2002 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bernadette1216     Edit/Delete Message
Dafremen....

who are you? Do I already know?

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We are each of us angels with one wing and we can only fly by embracing each other-unknown

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dafremen
unregistered
posted November 28, 2002 06:19 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Yes,
Bernadette, I would say that if you have read my poetry and my songs, then you know who I am. I know who I am too. Let it suffice to say that going around experimenting with people is NOT a hobby of mine, although observing them is and always has been. (It was born out of necessity in the beginning.)


Moonshadow,
I am Libran with my Sun in the Twelfth house, with a Scorpio Ascendant, a Cancer Moon in the ninth house and my Venus in Scorpio in the First House If you're as curious about people as I am, my natal information is:
October 14th 1968 at 8:52AM in Danville Illinois. (I guess that answers your question twice Bernadette.) My own early tendencies to change my appearance and behavior to mask my true self is what initially helped me to learn to see through people's words to their feelings.

Proxieme,

That was my hope after I ended this whole thing, was that at least some good could come out of it. Admittedly, my motivations were selfish...and not. Let me explain briefly (possible? letīs see.) I want to help people, humanity in general, I've always felt it. Never felt close to anyone, always felt alone, but always felt a great sympathy in my heart for humanity in general. (Does that make any sense?) My motives were selfish, in that I did it to satisfy my own need to know and to learn more about the nature of this behavior. A few people have already expressed at least an understanding of the "point" that was made and I have noticed a change in their willingness to reach out to those who hurt in an unconventional manner. I also agree with you about drawing the line. Some people are never going to let go of habitual lashing and acting out. It's the initial lack of effort on the part of us all in the first place that I find so disturbing. We just don't try as a society. (I'm generalizing, I hope you will forgive.)


Sherr Bear,

Never. You sweet people have nothing to fear from this mad scientist. I find you all not only charming, but sincere and caring and besides, I learned my lesson from this first forray into betrayal of trust. Rest assured that what you see is what you get and who I am. (I'm like this in person too.)


tash,

I am VERY sorry for what I did. I needed the answers to my questions, but in hindsight, not that badly. You can rest assured that I am still apologizing a few days later. I know that I will never have everyone's trust again, but that is a consequence of my action and I'm always the first to accept those.

Is there as solution to this problem? Can anyone think of some sort of approach that might help to turn this trend around? I would be interested to hear some suggestions.

Oh...and thank you all for working with me on this one. I needed that very much.

8) Daf

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theFajita
Knowflake

Posts: 2007
From: Boca Raton, FL USA
Registered: Sep 2002

posted November 28, 2002 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theFajita     Edit/Delete Message
I am going to be really honest, that whole thing sounds really weird to me. Really really weird. Did the people around you mean so little that you would jeaopardize your friendship with them and their trust in you and their feelings so you could conduct a little test. And now that you know the answer, well who really cares. So people don't respond well to people in pain, we cannot make me people see any certain way we want to anyhow, so what good does the answer do you.

Are you really sure you did this because you wanted to. Were you on drugs? Did you secretly resent people and this was your way to lash out? How do you remember who you are if you have a protocol of behavior in nice emails to you, to mean emails to you, and to interaction with people.

I've done alot of f***ed up things in my life so I hope I am not judging. I know what it's like to be misunderstood.

I am a very empathetic person, and I just don't see how someone with so much empathy could conciously be mean to people. I could not be that way. The only time I was like that was under the influence of drugs when I was in the midst of my drug problem.
Was this some sort of cry for help and you were trying to push away as many as you could?

Well I suppose you had your reasons, good luck to you and your wife. And didn't all this people you were so mean to notice when your experiment was up?

------------------
Food is the only art that nourishes!

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dafremen
unregistered
posted November 30, 2002 03:58 PM           Edit/Delete Message
I'm with you fajita. It sounded weird, but then again, I don't think about things the way a lot of people do, or even the same things that a lot of people do. My wife calls me..BORING.

In answer to your first question, I shopped around for a website for that reason, so I wouldn't have any friendships that meant anything to me to betry. (I made quite a few friends along the way though surprisingly. Those that saw through the act.) I still feel terrible about what I did, and to answer your second question...YES I was, as a matter of fact. I had been smoking pot since I was 13 (cept for a short stint in the military) and only recently (about 3 and a half months ago) gave it up. I don't think that had anything to do with my decision to do this. I think with me, as Linda says in Love Signs about most Librans...its about the ends...not the means. I saw to what I was trying to accomplish and not the side effects I might create along the way. I am painfully aware of those side effects now. Anyone that doubts my dedication to and empathy for people in general, like I said is welcome to read what I write and judge for themselves. You are also welcome to analyze my chart which leans heavily to the "does for others" side of the wheel.

This was selfish, no doubt about it and I won't sit here and try to justify something that I don't feel is justifiable. Thanks for being honest though. It means a lot. Rest assured that I will always return the favor, the honesty favor that is.(As diplomatically as possible of course.) Like I said, I learned another valuable lesson in the course of this experience. I don't intend to create anymore pain in this world.

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theFajita
Knowflake

Posts: 2007
From: Boca Raton, FL USA
Registered: Sep 2002

posted December 02, 2002 01:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theFajita     Edit/Delete Message
Wow it seems like you really see things clearly now too. Hey I am not perfect either, beleive me I did JUST AWFUL things and burned a lot of bridges during the years that I struggled with drugs. I congratulate you for not having done drugs in 3 and a half months- that is terrific! I hope that you quit dwelling on mistakes of the past because the only thing that does is make us go back to that quick-fixing-no solution: drugs. Another thing to remember is if by any chance you do go back into drugs and stuff is not to hate yourself, that is what I did continuously for years. Once I accepted I was human and made mistakes, I stopped turning to drugs.
I do have for you and glad you saw I was just being honest. I will always appreciate your honesty with me too. BTW I hope I take it as well as you took mine
but honesty is definetly a good thing, hard to come by these days..
you still have to let us know where you will be living, staying in baja or getting the visa renewed??
good luck to you and your family

------------------
Food is the only art that nourishes!

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