posted June 07, 2004 06:33 AM         

I notice a large number of Lindalanders are from the States and I'm interested to know your feelings on 'flag waving'- patriotism, nationalism or xenophobia? Do you like the existance of pledging allegiance to the American flag in school?

posted June 07, 2004 09:47 AM         

Although I am against prayer in school, I'm all for the Pledge of Allegiance. From time to time I'll hear someone bemoaning the fact that Americans are given to inordinate amounts of chest-thumping. Probably. Probably even a bit more so than other nationalites. We do certainly seem to think we are the best at everything, don't we? Of course one can imagine how distasteful that can be for others. But to be an American is so different than anything else we have seen before. I can move to, say, Italy and learn the language and customs and aquire my citizenship but I will never be truly an Italian. I haven't a drop of the blood in me. Every other counrty is based on blood. An American citizenship is based on philoshopy. There's no such thing as American blood. It's all based on, "what do you believe in?" And therein lies the difference. It is a matter of great consequence and one I think we should all be proud of.

posted June 07, 2004 01:04 PM         

America is NOT AT ALL the only country that is so "unique" to be a melting pot. Of course, you have to agree with the whole "melting pot" theory. Maybe take a little look up north to your cousins? What about Australia? There is not a "melting pot" mentality in thos countries, but rather a "tossed salad", where not everyone is the same, but all the different pieces are what make the salad taste great. A plain lettuce salad would be pretty boring. We don't expect people to turn into a perfect "Canadian", we expect them to be a perfect "xfill-in-the-blankx" and contribute to our DIVERSITY.

Did you know that in Germany there are 85 million inhabitants, of which 15 million!!!! are of Turkish descent? That's not including the huge number of "others" living in Germany, including Americans. Look to England, with it's Indian population, so many of whom have British passports. Or France, with the Algerians, Africans and Asians, again, many having French nationality despite growing up in a totally different part of the world and speaking a "pidgeon" dialect of French. Or in New Zealand, what "blood" do you need there to be considered a reall Kiwi? Maouri? English? French? A nationality is as much as you make it, and as little as you let it be. It is a stake that many people drive between themselves and others different from them, using it to be able to stagnate in their human development.

Flag waving is only acceptable to me up to a point. In my not-so-humble point of view the Americans have taken this attitude way beyond a healthy stance and have turned it into just as fanatic a view as the fanatic Islamist states. Those fanatic Islamics looking outside of their world into yours see their side of the story just as you see your side: we're right, they're wrong, HOW can they not see that???? I'm proud to be a Canadian, yes. But I'm not so proud to be Canadian to infringe upon the right of someone else to believe that their country, their way of life and their culture is the best way of living...because for them, it is.

Personally, and I know this will **** off about 90% of you guys here, I wouldn't live in the States. I grew up on the border to the States (Windsor, Ont/border to Detroit) and saw enough of it to last me. I think there's lots of things that need to be cleaned up in your country before you can stand up and yell, "hey, WE'RE the best!". Fix your school systems, fix your health care, fix your social welfare programs, fix your gun laws, fix your narrowed views on the "rest of the world"...

Sorry to step on your guys toes...and Canada has a lot to fix in it's way, too...but then again Canadians as a rule don't go thumping their chest (and opponents), trying to convince them that only they could be right.

Nackie steps off her soapbox now and ducks the flying tomatoes!!

posted June 07, 2004 01:14 PM         

Ooops...look at those worms flying out of the can!

posted June 07, 2004 01:17 PM         

you know what, I get along really well with Aries...you can discuss with them and even if it gets heated, it generally doesn't get taken personally...

go ahead, rip me to shreds...lol Seems to me to be my purpose in life lately anyways! lol

posted June 07, 2004 01:22 PM         

Aries are just too cool...my fave people, well after geminis that is...lol

posted June 07, 2004 03:11 PM         

I would also like to remove "under god" from the pledge.

posted June 07, 2004 03:26 PM         

Are Turks allowed to become German citizens? Last I read 5 years ago, this was not the case.

posted June 07, 2004 03:51 PM         

yes, they are allowed. My boss' husband is a Turk, with German citizanship. Of course, they have to give up their Turkish citizenship, because you are only allowed one passport in Germany. Unless you have parents of two nationalities, then you have both (my son is Canadian/German with both passports). There are about 6 million people with dual citizenship in Germany, so I don't know what the big deal about it is from a general point of view, but German beauracracy is legendary...

posted June 07, 2004 04:38 PM         

It seems it's ok for people in other countries to be proud of where they come from but if you're American now it seems to be looked down upon.

I think if more Americans were a little more patriotic it'd bring more voters to the polls. Damn the turnout is really dismal.

I'm not against the Pledge in school but "Under GOd" should be taken out.

posted June 07, 2004 10:09 PM         

I'm alright with the Pledge of Allegiance, as long as it's not ridiculously enforced. IE, giving a kid a detention for not pledging along.

posted June 07, 2004 11:43 PM         

I would say though that the interestiing phenomonon of 15 million Turks in Germany is recent one. What I was trying to say is that being an American is based on citizenship rather than blood. I can become a citizen of China but I can never become "Chinese". But a "Chinese" man can become American. Or Canadian if he would rather. I think this is a monumental change in the course of human history. Countries were once, up until quite recently, based on blood and tribe.

And I agree with you that there are many things in America that need to be fixed. And I've no doubt that there are some things the Canadians do better than we do. But I've found nothing else in the world, past or present, that can beat the Declaration of Independence. Do we always live up to those most high ideals? Nope. Less and less it seems. But when I wave my flag I'm thinking about those ideals. I'm thinking about our birthright.

Trill ~ I truly feel it is my God-given right as an American to burn the American flag. I haven't done it yet but I'm sure I'll get around to it at some point.

Where's Jwhop?

posted June 07, 2004 11:48 PM         

As for flag waving - I think Americans are more apt to do this mainly because we FOUGHT for our independence. Canada still has strong ties to the United Kingdom and Australia is still part of the Commonwealth though they are independent nations. We have been raised with pride in this country founded by our ancestors who put their blood, sweat and lives into making it work. The thing is, we descendants are still doing the same today. No, America is not perfect. It never will be. Because people are not perfect, and this nation is Of the poeple, By the people, and For the people.

Blessings to all.

LLL

posted June 08, 2004 08:16 AM         

in fact, didn't we burn down your white house FIGHTING for our independance?

I see you've rebuilt it -- it's turned out quite nice!

"As for flag waving - I think Americans are more apt to do this mainly because we FOUGHT for our independence. Canada still has strong ties to the United Kingdom and Australia is still part of the Commonwealth though they are independent nations."

Oh, I see, sorry. I thought BUSH was hooked up with the Brits lately...my bad.

And man, do I feel stupid, here I was thinking that Canada was also commonwealth. But then again, I only studied Liguistical Anthropology.

"We have been raised with pride in this country founded by our ancestors who put their blood, sweat and lives into making it work. The thing is, we descendants are still doing the same today."

Oh, now I see where the difference to other countries lies! doh! To think that I was under the impression that just about every country in the world can claim that of it's citizens...I mean, it's a pity my canadian grandfather died in WWII (btw, LONG before the Americans finally decided to help out). I almost thought he shed his blood and my family their tears fighting for Canadian ideals. Silly me!

"No, America is not perfect. It never will be. Because people are not perfect, and this nation is Of the poeple, By the people, and For the people."

Well, you can decide that no one's perfect, so why bother trying to be perfect. Or you can decide that every one is perfect in something they do, and learn from those aspects of your peoples. Therein lies the essential difference between us: America knows they aren't perfect, but doesn't care. Other coutries know they aren't perfect, but try darn hard to fix the fact!

And our freedom wasn't HANDED to us. We fought for it. Just in a peaceful manner. Agressiveness is not necessarily the only way or even the BEST way to go about getting what you want!

Nackie