Author
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Topic: Are You Thinking Of Buying A Pet?
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Gia Knowflake Posts: 1154 From: California Registered: May 2004
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posted March 30, 2005 02:37 PM
A friend has just purchased a new pet. It's a reptile actually and it's left me totally shocked and saddened. I thought she would know better than this. Keeping animals in cages is cruel and unjust. It's cruel no matter how much you love them. Perfect liberty and open wild spaces are the very essence of wild animals. The misery it must endure to be imprisoned must be really intense and pathetic. Leave them in their native habitats and don't artificially stimulate native climates for them.It's not the same no matter how hard you try.Perhaps the biggest sin lies with those that caught them in the first place. Lets remember of course that they do so for profit so we also have a part to play and not encourage this nefarious practice by buying them. Please think twice. Is your amusement worth the suffering? Gia IP: Logged |
Johnny Knowflake Posts: 2056 From: Colorado, USA Registered: Nov 2004
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posted March 30, 2005 08:43 PM
So do you mean all pets, or just those that are kept in cages? I have a dog and a cat, but a rather think they enjoy being my pets But I very much agree with you that animals should not be kept in cages. Especially birds, having their wings clipped and all. That's definetly the height of cruelty.IP: Logged |
StarLover33 Knowflake Posts: 3061 From: King Arthur's Camelot Registered: Jun 2002
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posted March 30, 2005 09:31 PM
How do you know these pets don't enjoy it? Sometimes being well taken care of makes all the difference. Think how they're being protected by other predators. They're actually living longer lives as pets. -StarLover IP: Logged |
Gia Knowflake Posts: 1154 From: California Registered: May 2004
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posted March 30, 2005 10:25 PM
They are out of their natural enviroment and exposed to a life that is totally alien to them. How can a reptile enjoy it alone in a cage? I can tell you quite clearly who the predators are. I wish for you to observe an animal closely in it's natural habitat. After awhile, you will notice how these type of animals exhibit a wonderful grace and familarity to their native space, they are really not much different to us because they move in a natural and sure rhythum where they are most comfortable. It's a kind a coherence you never see in a zoo exhibit.Of course I'm not talking cats and dogs. I'm talking about wild, exotic animals that we keep merely for our amusement and not because we have their best interests at heart. This reptile has a tiny cage and a heat lamp. It's going to have a wonderful life I'm sure in the corner of her bedroom. -------------------------- One does not become enlightened by imagining the light, but by making the dark conscious. Carl Jung. Gia IP: Logged |
zoso Knowflake Posts: 703 From: Death Valley USA Registered: Sep 2004
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posted March 30, 2005 11:15 PM
Reptiles, especially, are not very social. They are taking care of themselves right after they hatch, so they are loners unless mating. Cats and dogs are social animals and it makes me kinda sad when I see someone with just one dog or just one cat, because I think they need animal friends. but would it matter if snakes-n-such are born in captivity instead of a wild reptile caught? If you live in a south-western type climate, you can play with little lizards almost every day and never have to keep them captive. IP: Logged |
alchemiest Knowflake Posts: 699 From: Somewhere over the rainbow Registered: Sep 2003
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posted March 31, 2005 01:22 AM
uhhh well, one of my very close friends has a couple of poison dart frogs as pets. They're in a nice aquarium (without water of course) with very pleasant foliage, a 'pond' etc. I think they are quite happy. At least they seem so in their own froggy way. I agree with the sentiment that animals are best suited by evolution to the outdoors (the wild ones I mean) but this doesn't mean that they cannot adapt to and enjoy life with human companions. Especially in the case of reptiles, fish, etc, I am not sure that they can really tell the difference between being in a large artificial environment and a natural one. My onion ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/smile.gif) IP: Logged |
Gia Knowflake Posts: 1154 From: California Registered: May 2004
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posted March 31, 2005 01:27 AM
How do you know? Are you a frog? I don't know about those kind of frogs for sure, but I have plenty of tree frogs around my pool and on my land and they seem very social and happy. They hate to be confined even if you hold them for a few seconds. Gia IP: Logged |
SunChild Moderator Posts: 4032 From: Australia Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 31, 2005 03:37 AM
I have to partly agree with Gia on this. My dad once took a wild frog from his enviroment and gave it to me, and even set up a little habitat for it. Anyway, I just felt it was the wrong thing to do. I was just 10 years old, and I felt like almost crying seeing the poor little guy, alone, in a small tank. So I pulled it out of it's prison, and set it free in the wetlands, where it really wanted to go. I told my dad the frog escaped.I've also been to many friends houses' where they'd have a reptile, like Gia explained, and I can't help but feel that these creatures are really living their life being alone 90% of the time, being fed 'who-knows what', and being played with by human hands. Dogs, Cats, are fine in my opinion, they are very social, and enjoy the company of humans. But little wild creatures have their own plane of existence. I feel it's interference by keeping them for our own selfish purposes. I've seen them in their element in the wild. Someone also bought me a rat once too, and it escaped- I wonder why? ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/blueheart.gif) Anyway- it is right to be selfless and think of the animal first.
------------------ "And dreams, don't ever forget, are the first step in manifesting wishes into reality"-- Linda Goodman's Star Signs IP: Logged |
Harpyr Knowflake Posts: 2255 From: land of the midnight sun Registered: Dec 2002
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posted March 31, 2005 12:15 PM
The problem is that much of the natural habitat of these reptiles is being rapidly destroyed everyday. Frogs are going extinct at a rate faster than any other species. I think that if some of them can be saved by creating artificial environments in peoples' homes or in zoos then that is great. Perhaps one day when we humans figure out how to share the earth with other species instead of destroying everything just to keep our luxurious way of life going then perhaps some species of reptiles will have been saved because herpeticulturists have worked hard to house and care for them during the interim.My fiance is passionate about reptiles. We have 2 corn snakes, two baird's ratsnakes and two ball pythons, all captive bred, that he loves dearly and handles regularly. He works very hard to provide them with the best artificial environments possible and I believe they are 'happy'. As happy as reptile brains can feel.. lets be careful not to anthropomorphize them too much.. IP: Logged |
Philbird Knowflake Posts: 3396 From: Here, there and everywhere. Registered: Jun 2004
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posted March 31, 2005 02:21 PM
OK, I realize now that caging an animal may be viewed as cruel... So, am I to get rid of my endangered finches, send them back to their natural habitat, which by the way is why they are endangered in the first place? I have already invested my love in my pets, I made a commitment. Thery are living the only life they know, they don't sing and dance because they hate it. I hear you, it's ok for man to keep anything with a conscious, that he can manipulate to meet his egotistical needs. Make it sit, roll over, beg whenever man wants it to do? Talk about cruelty! But it's NOT OK to keep a pet that cannot communicate by wagging it's tail, or humping your leg? If I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have a pet. I don't intend to just give up my birds, I've made a commitment to give them the best care they deserve.IP: Logged |
SunChild Moderator Posts: 4032 From: Australia Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 31, 2005 06:10 PM
It's a tough one! That's for sure. It's my experience with reptiles that created my opinion.I'm not totally against having pets. I also had birds when I was little, and the love we shared with them was beautiful, and I know they felt it, and that they were happy. That's different. All you need to do is ask yourself, and you'll know if you're doing the right thing or not. We've all had very different and unique experiences with animals. It's each to our own, and we cannot assume anything about eachothers pets!!! As long as there's loads of love involved, it's ok in my book! ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/heart.gif) You know what you have between you and your birds Philbird! And never give that up! ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/heart.gif) ------------------ "And dreams, don't ever forget, are the first step in manifesting wishes into reality"-- Linda Goodman's Star Signs IP: Logged |
Gia Knowflake Posts: 1154 From: California Registered: May 2004
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posted March 31, 2005 06:21 PM
Your birds were probably born in captivity Philly. I remember visiting some great animal sanctuaries in Africa where animals were both protected and free to roam about their natural habitat.As for loads of love, it all depends how you would define love I suppose and perhaps how your animal would define it. Gia IP: Logged |
Eleanore Moderator Posts: 2512 From: Japan Registered: Aug 2003
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posted March 31, 2005 11:01 PM
I won't comment on all pets in captivity ... I don't know enough about the issue to really provide an informed answer. However, regarding reptiles, I do think very serious consideration needs to be put into the decision to own one. I've known numerous people over the years who've gone and bought some kind of reptile or another and had it die within a year or even a couple of months. Do you know how long reptiles are generally expected to live in the wild? Not to mention the very serious pain and trouble so many of these animals experience because of their owner's ignorance before they die ... the most common being related to burns they receive from the heat source being provided. Owning a reptile, if you're sure it's what you want, requires alot of dedication and alot of money. Research the species, talk to herpetologists, look into all the proper equipment, estimate your expenditures (including vet bills which will be higher than with most other pets), and be honest about whether or not you have the time, effort, and money to spend on this creature. Here is some interesting information regarding reptiles: Stephen L. Barten, DVM From his Burns chapter, in Reptile Medicine and Surgery (Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. W.B. Saunders. 1996. pp. 9-19). "Thermal burns may result from any source of heat. Heat sources that allow direct contact between the captive reptile and t he source, such as hot rocks, heating pads, or spot lights within the cage, are most often implicated in burn cases. Burns may be prevented by keeping heat sources outside of the cage or shielding them to prevent contact with the captive reptile. Backup thermostats should be wired into the system in case the primary thermostat malfunctions." http://www.anapsid.org/hotrock.html In closing... If I sound negative at times, it is because I am. Experts estimate that between 50-90% of reptiles die their first year in captivity, on top of the 10-50% that died during the importation process. The reasons for their dying once they reach the importing country are primarily due to people not knowing what they are getting into, relying on inaccurate care information (including that provided by most pet stores), and not being able to afford the necessary equipment, upkeep and veterinary care (assuming that the basic equipment required is actually available in the country in which the reptile is sold).
Of all the animals kept in captivity, reptiles are the only ones who do not typically reach their normal lifespan. In captivity, most animals should live to-or exceed-their expected natural life span due to the improved conditions (regular feeding, veterinary care, etc.) and lack of predators. That this doesn't happen with reptiles is a tragic commentary on how poorly we understand and provide for these animals. If the pet trade were itself fully knowledgeable, if the people selling reptiles were honest about what it takes to properly house and maintain reptiles they sell and about the reptiles' eventual size and temperament, the reptile trade would not be the multi-million dollar business it currently is... If reptiles were as cool and easy to care for as too many people think they are, then reptile rescue groups, herpetological and humane societies wouldn't be getting literally dozens of calls a week from people trying to give away their reptiles. Yes, give away. Besides the 20-40 calls every month from iguana owners who no longer want their lizards, I take calls from people trying to get rid many different types of reptiles (most common: Burmese pythons, red-tailed boas, large monitor lizards, aquatic turtles, box turtles). They generally call me after they have found that no one has beat down their doors trying to buy their reptile, and that the pet stores or breeders from whom they originally bought their animal, and zoos and wildlife educators and refuges don't have any more room for cast-off pets. Others are shocked by not being able to find a vet who will treat their severely ill reptile for free, or that there isn't anyone else out there who will pay for the necessary care for them. Besides the 20-30 iguanas a year I take in and try to find homes for (something that has become increasingly difficult as there are more people buying them than are actually capable of and willing to care for them properly), I have taken in or otherwise rescued: gopher snakes, ball pythons, Burmese pythons, red-tail boas and corn snakes; savannah monitors, gold tegus; bearded dragons, leopard geckos, tokay geckos, water dragons, and sailfin lizards; box turtles, tortoises, and aquatic turtles; and assorted amphibians. Most are suffering from some form of neglect and many are moderately to severely ill. Most come from people who never thought beyond merely buying the animal and sticking it in a (generally too small) enclosure. Reptiles are not things. They are living, breathing, feeling (yes, they do feel pain and suffer from the effects of stress) animals, with the same basic emotions, nerve structure and needs that the so-called higher animals have. Whether they live only a couple of years or 150 years, they require the same commitment to their care and well-being as does any animal. Reptiles are not stuffed toy animals you can just stick away in a garage because someone in the family thinks reptiles are icky, or because everyone's lost interest in it. Reptiles do not belong in garages, just as cars don't belong in the bedroom or family room. Sticking an intelligent reptile, such as a green iguana, in a garage is nothing less than cruel and inhumane. For some idea of what it is like being shunted away from family activities, or forced to spend your life in a cage way too small just because the humans refuse to provide you the space you need to ensure your health, please read my article, Imagine: A Visualization Exercise. Keeping a reptile properly can provide a wonderful learning experience for the family. But so, too, can choosing not to keep one. If you take away nothing else from this article, please consider this: do not get, nor agree to letting your child (or spouse or significant other) get, any animal that you are not willing to care for, provide for and support entirely for the rest of its natural life. Because all too often, that is exactly what you will be faced with... http://www.anapsid.org/parent.html
------------------ "This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man." - Shakespeare IP: Logged |
alchemiest Knowflake Posts: 699 From: Somewhere over the rainbow Registered: Sep 2003
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posted March 31, 2005 11:14 PM
Hmm, that is a tough question- how do you know for sure that a frog (or any other animal at that) is happy? I mean, if we want to get all philosophical, we must admit there is no way to know whether any animal is happy at all- whether in their own environment or ours. In their own 'froggy way' however, these little cretins will display what I at least construe to be comfortableness in their current environment. They will come up to the front of the aquarium when there are people in the room and kind of clamber on the front glass wall closest to where the people are. Also, they will actually hop onto your hand in you reach into the aquarium. So, I just figure that they're happy or at least comfortable in there (and with humans). They definitely don;t have to compete for food sources and things, so in that sense, their life is 'easier'. I would ask you however, why you think they are 'happier' in nature? I am certainly not a frog, and presumably, neither are you. (kidding! ) About wild animals, from personal experience, I feel that they can and often do enjoy human company. For a few years, I had a 'pet' squirrel that we rescued as a baby. She lived in a cage yes, but was free to roam all over the house and outside. She always returned to her cage though- especially when she wanted to relax or just chill. The cage door was always open and any time she spent in it was entirely voluntary. She was attacked by a dog (damn stray dogs in Thailand.. I feel so bad for them., but I will never forgive this one!)one day and died as a result of it (she got pretty badly hurt). For a long time, I was inconsolable because I felt that if I had kept her inside, this wouldn't have happened (by the way, it wasn't that she didn't know how to escape predators as she had successfully defended herself from dogs, cats as well as other squirrels in the past). I honestly don't know what happened that day- only that I heard the dog barking and saw it running after something and then I heard a squeal and I instinctively knew it was her. But yeah, at the risk of sounding overly sentimental, she was my baby girl and (I think) she thought I was hers too (hehe), because she'd sit for hours on my shoulders (and sometimes perched on top of my head which kind of HURT cause her nails were SHARP!!!) just 'grooming' me. Yeah, she was really something. IP: Logged |
Yin Knowflake Posts: 1409 From: Registered: May 2004
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posted April 01, 2005 08:53 AM
I can't think of anything worse than a bird in a cage... even when the cage is golden ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/blueheart.gif) IP: Logged |
Philbird Knowflake Posts: 3396 From: Here, there and everywhere. Registered: Jun 2004
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posted April 01, 2005 06:52 PM
I apologize for the chip on my shoulder. Phil, my parrot is domesticated, but he does exhibit behaviors that he would if he were in the wild. We have learned what they mean and let him be. No, he cant't fly outside, but, neither can I. He's a family member, therefore, we have given him the gift of language to communicate what he wants. He doesn't just mimic what we tell him, he makes choices. When he wants a shower, he asks for one. When he wants to play, he asks to play. He's so amazing, with a 200 word vocabulary, he gets along pretty darn well. He even talks back like a teenager when the mood suits him. He makes up his own sentances, and knows wether to say ohla or hello, depending on who walks in the door.IP: Logged |
lovely* Knowflake Posts: 2141 From: CA Registered: Jul 2003
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posted April 01, 2005 08:02 PM
Gia, how do you feel about crate training a dog for potty-training? That's what we just did for our puppy and it worked nicely. He still goes in there to sleep even when its open. I dunno, experts say dogs are "den" animals and they are naturally inclined to sort of burrow adn sleep in small cozy spaces. anyway, my parotlett just killed/ hung himself on a toy in his cage. he got his beak stuck in between a ring and we came home to a dead bird. (adn I had a friend staying at my home to look after him in teh same room.) It happened in the middle of the night, which was odd. so even though i had a bird *a gift* in a cage and enjoyed the little guy, i wouldn't do it again. i beleive the reason his beak got stuck is because i refused to have it filed it down. same story with his wings. i never had them clipped. i used to find bird sh!t on the ceiling..WTF? ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/laugh.gif) IP: Logged |
BloodRedMoon Knowflake Posts: 932 From: somewhere out there Registered: Apr 2004
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posted April 02, 2005 02:39 AM
I understand feeling bad for birds and such. But really - I don't feel like a frog would much care if he lived in a tiny puddle or if he lived in an aquarium with lots of food and other froggies to play with. Just imo really. I don't any more than anyone else. IP: Logged |
Gia Knowflake Posts: 1154 From: California Registered: May 2004
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posted April 02, 2005 12:33 PM
Space and familarity. Let your frogs loose and see what happens. Birds were not meant to have ceilings either to **** on or otherwise.I'm not saying we can't enjoy animals, but why do we feel they need to purchase them like the latest handbag? To own them? Again I am not talking about cats and dogs, but for animals who normally live in wild enviroments. I think we can go back and forth on this one. I just pray and hope people think twice before they do it that's all! Gia IP: Logged |
Harpyr Knowflake Posts: 2255 From: land of the midnight sun Registered: Dec 2002
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posted April 02, 2005 02:51 PM
I totally agree that waaay too many people get reptiles without knowing enough about how to care for them or reallly understanding how big some of them get or how long they live. Reptiles require quite a bit of research before buying one and usually a rather long time commitment. I think alot of pet stores bear some of the responsibility for not informing new owners well enough... Certainly they aren't pets that people should get because they want to make some kind of 'fashion statement'. ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/frown.gif) IP: Logged |
Nephthys Moderator Posts: 3800 From: California Registered: Oct 2001
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posted April 02, 2005 05:04 PM
I am really discusted with Petco who keeps their birds in cages stacked 3 on top of each other, so the bottom cage is a few inches off the floor. Now, come on. Petco should *at least* know that it's not healthy, or comfortable for birds to be on the floor: there is dust on the floor, drafts on the floor, the birds don't get adequate light, and birds like to be UP HIGH. No offense to anyone who shops or works at Petco, but there are many more reasons why I strongly dislike Petco. I do agree that birds and such should never have been bred and sold as pets, birds are free beings who should be able to enjoy their freedom and flight.
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alchemiest Knowflake Posts: 699 From: Somewhere over the rainbow Registered: Sep 2003
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posted April 03, 2005 09:21 PM
Oh my Nephthys! You just reminded me of a truly awful joke (your spelling of 'disgusted' triggered it ) I agree with you about Petco. They really don't have their animals kept in the best environment... at least, the last time I went there (which was, I admit, a couple of months ago). I like Petsmart so much better! They just had an adoption thing this weekend. I love those things!! They make me feel all tingly and 'aawww' inside! ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/smile.gif) IP: Logged |
Nephthys Moderator Posts: 3800 From: California Registered: Oct 2001
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posted April 04, 2005 10:21 PM
and were you planning on sharing this joke??????? ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/looking.gif) I didn't realize I spelled it wrong ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/redface.gif) Anyhow, my local Humane Society actually filed a lawsuit against our local Petco's. I don't know the details of the outcome. IP: Logged |
alchemiest Knowflake Posts: 699 From: Somewhere over the rainbow Registered: Sep 2003
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posted April 05, 2005 10:47 AM
oh sorry! LOL I didn't realize you were waiting for the joke btw, don't get embarassed about the spelling- I am such a clumsy typer, I have to go back and change a zillion words once I'm done hehe. the joke's really awful, and not worth sharing... but I do have something funny for you! The prayers of the zodiac
ARIES: "Dear God! Give me PATIENCE and I want it NOW!" TAURUS: "Dear God, please help me accept CHANGE in my life, but NOT YET." GEMINI: "Yo God...(or is it Goddess?)...Who are you?...What are you?.....Where are You?.....How many of you ARE there? I can't figure you out!" CANCER: "Dear Daddy, I know I shouldn't depend on you so much, but you're the only One I can count on while my security blanket is at the cleaners." LEO: "Hi, Pop! I'll bet you're really proud to have me as your kid!" VIRGO: "Dear God, please make the world a better place, and don't screw it up like you did the last time." LIBRA: "Dear God, I know I should make decisions for myself. But, on the other hand, what do YOU think?" SCORPIO: "Dear God, help me forgive my enemies, even if the ******** don't deserve it." SAGITTARIUS: "OH ALMIGHTY, ALL KNOWING, ALL-LOVING, ALL-POWERFUL, OMNIPRESENT, EVERLASTING GOD, IF I'VE ASKED YOU ONCE, I'VE ASKED YOU A THOUSAND TIMES --- HELP ME STOP EXAGGERATING!!!!!!!!!!" CAPRICORN: "Dear Father, I was going to pray, but I guess I ought to figure things out for myself. Thanks anyway." AQUARIUS: "Hi God! Some say you're a man. Some say you're a woman. I say we're ALL God. So, why pray? Let's have a party!" PISCES: "Heavenly Father, as I prepare to consume this last fifth of Scotch to drown out my pain and sorrow, may my inebriation be for Thy greater Honor and Glory." tee hee ![](http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/smile.gif) IP: Logged |
Nephthys Moderator Posts: 3800 From: California Registered: Oct 2001
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posted April 05, 2005 12:05 PM
those were good. funny, I am a nit-picker for spelling, and I have always spelled it that way and never known better IP: Logged | |