posted May 28, 2006 08:41 PM         

I believe suicide IS a choice one makes! I have thought of committing suicide ONLY to know what it feels like on the brink of death.
I wouldn't do it though, as I would be too S^&* scared to do it.
The thing is, you don't know whether you are going to heaven or hell, if you kill yourself.
I think, that when a person is about to kill themself, that is the last thing on their mind. The thing that would be formost, is freedom, independence from what is causing them so much pain.

posted May 29, 2006 03:26 AM         

Thank you also for all the interesting and insightful thoughts that you have shared here regarding suicide. It has given me much to think about.

Especially I would like to thank you, hippiechick, for all that you said from the perspective of having gone through the same experience that my sister and Roger's ( his name ) present wife are now enduring. Yes, there is a stigma also placed on the families of those who choose to take their own life. Often they are thought of as being unempathic to the person, not open enough for the person to be able to talk to or for not seeing it coming. Yet often those thinking of suicide do not attempt to talk to others about it because they feel isolated.

You stated that it was on his grandma's birthday that your ex-husband took his life. The day that Roger committed suicide was his dad's birthday. I know for a few years after my mom died I would get depressed around the anniversary of her death. So I wonder if this is just a coincidence or if it happens often in suicide.

quote:

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"Earth hath no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal....."

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Lulu, thank you for sharing the story of your mother. My husband had a similar experience as a child with his mom and she was hospitalized for a year when he was only 2 years old. He was too young to know if she attempted suicide or just had a mental breakdown but she was in a psychiatric facility. No one would talk about it as he got older but he is convinced she must have attempted suicide. I think you are right about the hobo being an angel.

HSC:

quote:

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It is said that the urge to die is an expression of a repressed urge to transform. Somehow, the urge is blocked, the person feels increasingly ambivalent about introducing change, or unable to do so (or to imagine doing so), and the pressure builds, until, one day, when little or no change has been effected, and patience is at an end, there appears no option but to discard the body.

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I think that is true and I think that may have been a large part of it with Roger. As I stated in my post, as you grow older the issues you haven't dealt with that have affected your relationships and your life tend to start crowding in on you.

I also think that what some of you mentioned about a chemical inbalance is a strong possibility. Alcohol is a depressant and if Roger was also taking pain medication for his torn rotor cuff that is also a possibility that contributed to his taking his life. I talked to my sister tonight about that and she agreed it could have contributed to his suicide.

I wish I could say that my life has been so perfect that I cannot relate to or empathize with anyone who commits suicide or thinks about taking their own life but that is far from the truth. You see, it's not that I don't understand suicide or the feelings that might bring it on, I am just having a hard time understanding it in Roger's case. Maybe that is the way it is with those who are closest to the person. I don't know. But believe me, I have been there at that brink a couple of times in my life. I think there are few people on this planet who haven't at one time or another considered suicide.

Once as a teen I did try to take my life. The only drug in the house at the time was aspirin so I downed the bottle. I laid down on my bed and then I was suddenly crying and praying that I wouldn't die. I didn't want to die. All the aspirin did was make me very dizzy and sick. I spent the night throwing them up. Another time in my mid 30's I was very depressed over a medical condition that I developed that I was having a hard time dealing with. I seriously felt that I could not live with this so I thought of suicide. The only thing that stopped me was the thought of what that would do to my husband and 3 children. So instead I went to therapy to help me to come to terms with what there was inside me that made this illness so hard to cope with. That was my first time in therapy and through it I had to deal with a lot of childhood trauma. Reliving that caused more depression at first and I came close to mental breakdown. I had to spend a week in a psyche unit of the hospital. What an eye opener that was! Trust me if you want to find out how sane you are in comparison spend a week in a place like that.

posted May 29, 2006 03:29 AM         

Suicide is a choice of free will. I think that most of us agree on that. Maybe my choice of words was not the best when I said I have always felt that suicide is the coward's way out but I was not judging Roger or anyone who commits suicide and I stated that in my post. I feel that way because I think with all that life can and does throw at us it takes more courage and strength to choose life. That feeling has more to do with my mom than it does with being a Roman Catholic or anything that any other spirituality has taught me. Our house burned down when I was 3 years old. My mom was badly burned rescuing us kids. She was 9 months pregnant at the time and with 3rd and 4th degree burns over the upper part of her body she went into labor that night and my baby brother was born dead from smoke inhalation. My mom spent a year in a coma and had to learn to walk and talk again. We did not have the money for the extensive plastic surgery she needed on her face so my mom went through the rest of her life scarred. She was married to an alcoholic who left us for months at a time going back to his home state. She had to fend for herself and raise 3 kids the best she could. There were times I knew my mom was depressed. But she never gave up. Life was very hard for my mom to say the least. People can be unkind to those who are disfigured and I have seen pictures of my mom before the fire. She was a beautiful woman. Yet anyone who knew her loved her and she had many friends. My mom was a very strong woman and she instilled that strength of endurance in me and my siblings.

For those of you have spoken about the Roman Catholic faith here, you are going waaaaay back in time. It has been over 40 years since Vatican II ended and the RC Church has changed a lot since Vatican II. They no longer refuse funeral masses to those Catholics who have taken their own life. They look at suicide in a more compassionate and humane way now. The same applies to divorce but they still don't allow anyone who is divorced to take communion if they remarry. I disagree with that. I don't agree with all the teachings of the RC Church but they have come a very long way since Vatican II. As DD said, I do come out of the box quite frequently and even though I studied theology in a RC seminary ( something else that has changed - women are allowed to attend the seminary now without being a nun and those of no faith or any other faith can also attend a RC seminary) I am in and out of the Church. Right now and for the past few years I have been out of the Church. It seems to be the way of my journey as it has always been that way. I believe there is truth most religions and ideologies. Talking of the stigma placed on suicide - it is also placing a stigma on those who profess an organized religion to assume that we are all closed minded or "brainwashed" or that we only see things from the viewpoint of what is contained in the box. Maybe true in some cases but not the case with everyone. So it's best not to lump people into a specific category.

DD said:

quote:

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Yes it does "seem" like that. We are free to go back, inside the box, if we feel that it works best for us. Inside doesn't necessarily equate with ignorance...as long as they have windows and a door in order to leave or view or experience the outside with on occasion, or more frequently

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Very well said, DD as usual. It definitely works for me. I try to keep an open mind about everything but I do have some very firm and deeply rooted beliefs that deal with love, justice and freedom to choose. Which is the basis for all true religions.

That was a very insightful and good discussion between you and HSC, DD. You both express yourself very well and very clearly.

I talked to my sister tonight and she told me that Roger's present wife is also angry at him for what he did. I recognize that as a normal part of the grieving process. When someone we love dies from an illness, a heart attack or even in an accident the anger might be directed at the circumstances, God or in the case of an accident another person. When someone we love takes their own life it would seem the anger can only be directed at that person. I am not angry at Roger for his choice but at how that choice had a ripple effect on everyone who loved him. How it affected his wife, my sister and my neice and nephew. Also his grandchildren. At this time my compassion is more directed at those who have to live with this. Roger has found his peace but it is going to take them a long time to find theirs. Especially my neice, Tracy. The compassion that I feel for Roger for what he must have been feeling that drove him to this act will come in time. You are all helping me immensely in coming to that point in time. Zala, I agree with what you said about anyone who is suffering so much inside being too wrapped up in their own suffering to think about the consequences of their actions on others or things like life insurance. Thank you for pointing that out it does help me to keep that thought in mind.

This is long and I apologize for that but there was so much here to digest and respond to.

posted May 29, 2006 08:27 AM         

I see evidence of this every day in Ireland...

So sad.......

And such a waste of what is a wild and free nation of people.....(just watch some of them when theyve a drink or two inside of them.....W O W....)!!!!

Before the church came along and took their right to be free away...

Hopefully time will heal this....

I am still curious as to why the catholic church keeps changing their rules.....

Maybe they are finally copping on to themselves...but what a piy they didnt have the wisdom to be more compassionate and open minded originally!

It would have saved thousands being screwed up....

posted May 29, 2006 10:20 AM         

I have lost two brother in laws this month. My husband's brother died of cancer on May 19 and he fought very hard to stay alive. Roger committed suicide just last week so please respect that this is not the time I wish to give catechism lessons on the teachings of the RC Church. And please respect the theme of this thread. It has been a good discussion and I really appreciate everyone's views on suicide. That has been very helpful for me getting through this and when the timing is right I can pass that on to my sister and family.

Maybe you can start a thread in UC about the Roman Catholic church, Sue and impart all of your wisdom regarding how Catholics think, what the Church teaches and how the church has robbed us of our freedom on that thread. Frankly I am not interested in your opinion of the RC Church. It has survived for over 2000 years without your wisdom. I think it will go on in spite of how you feel about it. This all seems to me a bit obssessive on your part regarding the RC Church.

posted May 29, 2006 11:55 AM         

I cannot think of any way to kill myself that would not frighten me. I think that is because I do not have a strong desire to die.

I think that is what it takes to follow through on suicide - the strong will to live that is an inate drive in all of us, in all animal life, is over ruled by an even stronger will to die. That is why I do not think that it takes courage to commit suicide. It just takes a stronger will to die than a stronger will to live.

The human will can move mountains. With that will we can overcome any obstacle in life and change the world for the better through our acts. We can also use that will to bring about much evil in the world and to override a very strong survival instinct that is inate in all creatures. We can use that free human will for our own self-destruction.

It seems that there are many people who are for psychological reasons self-destructive. Roger was an alcoholic and a party guy all of his life. Alcoholism is self-destructive, smoking is self-destructive, promiscuity is self-destructive, risk taking is self-destructive and there are more forms that I cannot think of now but they are all self-punishing and born out of a lack of self-love and self-respect.

Once we come to know that we are all Children of God and that we all are loved and highly esteemed by God we cannot help but to realize that we all have a place here in this world and we cannot help but to have respect and a healthy love for ourselves that also allows for us to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. Life is all about growth. It is a learning process but it is up to us and our free will to choose to learn and grow.

There is a verse in Scripture in Deuteronomy 30:19 which was spoken by Moses just before his death and just before the Jews crossed over into the "promised land." That verse has come to my mind through this discussion on suicide and from Roger's death. It goes:

I call heaven and earth today to witness against you; I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then....

This is what I do...it's part of how I work through anything that happens in my life that creates a struggle and it is how I work through grief...by talking to other people about it - talking it out- and listening to their thoughts and I read things on the subject. I have been doing some reading on the subject of suicide on the net and I came across this article. This is a part of the article and the feeling of isolation I think contributes a great deal to suicide:

The cover story of the August 28, 1995 issue of Time magazine is entitled "The Evolution of Despair," by Robert Wright. The subtitle reads, "A new field of science examines the mismatch between our genetic makeup and the modern world, looking for the source of our pervasive sense of discontent." Wright speaks of a great increase in anxiety, stress, and depression: "Rates of depression have been doubling in some industrial countries roughly every 10 years. Suicide is the third most common cause of death among young adults in North America, after car wrecks and homicides. Fifteen percent of Americans have had a clinical anxiety disorder." He states, "The problem with modern life...is...that too little of our 'social' contact is social in the natural, intimate sense of the word."

Wright observes that isolation in the suburbs has been particularly hard on women with young children because of the lack of the influence of the extended family of aunts, uncles, and grandparents. Our isolation is increased when we can drive home in our private car, and as we finally reach our block, we can hit the button on our electric garage door opener and slip directly into our house without risking contact with a neighbor. "...The ultimate in isolating technologies is television...." which the average American spends twenty-eight hours a week watching. And then the "fruitless pursuit of the More---the sixty-hour workweeks...can keep us from better knowing our neighbors, better loving our kin---in general, from cultivating the warm, affiliative side of human nature...."

posted May 29, 2006 01:23 PM         

And Yang...
Bless you too my dear friend.
Even though you and I differ on religious views,
You and I are I definitely feel, are close and forever friends.
You have given me so much to think about and have cheered me often.
Much love and blessings to you dear man and dear precious friend.

posted May 29, 2006 03:12 PM         

And apologise for any hurt I caused

I am still reeling from a hurt of my own....a betrayal and should not have let this affect any other....

And I am very sorry if I caused hurt to you Mirandee

I will decline yer offer of starting a thread about the church tho....doesnt seem like a good idea somehow

May your heart heal from this tragic loss...

posted May 29, 2006 03:33 PM         

All I can say is...
Suicide is often seen as selfish, but a suicidal person has no room for selfishness in their mind. They do not feel a connection to this world. Whether they contribute to your life or not, their perception is limitted as to how. All they seem is the bottomless pit and death is their only way out. I mean, only way out that they see.

posted May 29, 2006 06:58 PM         

hsc, thank you for posting an opposing viewpoint. it jives with how i feel even though there is a strong part of me believing its selfish to do something like this once you have kids. a person in contemplating suicide is however, not in shape to consider things such as life insurance for the kids, etc. i don't know, i'm guessing here. it seems like punishment for the ones left behind.

gooberslostlove is probably on to something though.

mirandee, i'm wondering if your former brother in law was taking pain medication for his shoulder. opiates such as vicodin for example, can create a real drop in natural dopamine levels, causing physical & emotional pain. it can interfere with ones ability to sense joy.

posted May 29, 2006 08:13 PM         

Roger did what he did, respect him for that, respect his decision, let him go, do not keep him and all the other ones that have made the same decision earth-bound. PRAY for Roger and Jeff (mine) and all the others, and pray for Mirandee and her family and let it go, let them go.

Sending Peace, Love and Light....

posted May 29, 2006 08:42 PM         

I am very concerned for these souls who make this decision and what it means for soul progression/evolution.

In esoteric teachings, we all kill ourselves in one lifetime or another, and if we have not done it yet, we will. And according to some, once we have realized what we have done (on the spirit plane) we are sent back to finish what we did not compleate.

My heart and soul goes out to those lost souls who are there, I can not even imagine what it would be like to have to come back and repeat a similar lifetime all over again, just because it was cut short by one's own hand. Then again, I can only imagine what lies beyond for us all anyway.

posted May 29, 2006 09:19 PM         

"what is outside of us is also inside of us..."

Well said!

posted May 29, 2006 11:23 PM         

The following does not have anything to do with Mirandee's personal loss but of a person I knew of.

Some suicides are revenge related.
Yes.....the soul of the person committimng suicide is indeed tortured.
But having known suicides who left notes saying things like "f-ck you all, I am tired of working and paying child support. I want you to suffer and f-ck the kids too dumb bit-h you could have taken the pill! I have wiped out my bank account and cancelled my life insurance policy. I am going off to the great party in the sky! F-ck you all!. And by the way "Betty" I hope you enjoy the little gift I left for you. Ha ha ha ha!"

Well that was a selfish a$shole . And the ba$tard left her with Hepatitus and STD herpes from his fooling around with hookers he picked up off the street.

Yeah....pity him all you want but he was still a selfish vengeful ba$tard even if he was hurting inside. Alcoholism and drug abuse did not help the matter either.

And after the fact many folks who survived their suicide attempts DO LOOK BACK and realize that their almost demise was indeed at least partially selfish. So caught up in their own REAL pain and emotional agony...they never thought to consider how their suicide could and would affect others. But it is not until surviving the attempt that one can look back and say...wow, I did not see that or think of that.

And yes, to others who are honest about their feelings it can look selfish. And yes living is often harder than dying.

My family has this jackass rule....
Do not speak ill of the dead.
Ha!
Treat folks like $hit while they are living and $hit on them, use and abuse them, badmouth them and more. Never help them or listen to them.

But oh dear...
Never speak ill of them or mention their faults or trash them once they are dead like you all did while they were alive!
No no no!

Elevate them now to the level of sainthood and cry your big fat fake crocodile tears saying oh my oh dear..only the good die young! Wah Wah Wah!
Convienantly forgetting you were all cruel in the extreme to those persons when they were alive and had no kind words for them then.

Which goes back to the suicide issue.
Far too many reasons to do it or attempt it and yes...some can be selfishly motivated.

SUICIDE.....
More thoughts on the matter...

Is this why humanity has not been given absolute and emperical evidence of something beyond the current incarnation? Or the same for the past?

Would folks bail when things got rough knowing for sure they get a new run?

Or would humanity give up its physical form and become another kind?

How about population?
If no one were having children would there suddenly be a new surge and folks would suddenly begin to regenerate...and become immortals? Would some aspect of the bio form and the planet recognize the ceasing of more burdens upon its resources?

posted May 30, 2006 02:42 AM         

I think that I too, if I were to die, I would hope that someone would take my livejournal and show each and every person what I thought about them. Yes. I would want them to know the torture I held inside, because otherwise, they're left thinking, "Oh, she was Wiccan. It's the devil that got her. She played video games. That's why she did it.", or some other ****** up inanimate scapegoat.

My reason to die would be a childhood constantly interupted by people who would not let me be because of my ethnicity, race, views, etc. Wounds on the outside that have long faded but still exist inside. Never believed by authority. Never accepted by peers. Parents who just do not get it. Not knowing how to function in the real world because of selective amnesia and lack of childhood development. Only being loved by people more ****** up than me...and they still want to change/get rid of my few comfort zones. Watching man after man go for someone else. Someone with the same name as me. Someone shorter. Someone whiter. Someone skinnier. ******* skinny bitches. And this city with it's people, with their cellphones stuck to their ********* heads like the world around them doesn't matter. And when you're beat up in the street, they either stare or keep walking. Day after day, the filth feeds off this earth but when I honor the earth, I'm a fool. My cousin gets statutory raped and knocked up...and I'm still not a mother, so I am taking up space. My sister explores her sexuality and this world cheers her on.

And I look back at photos of my childhood, before all of this...and I ask myself, why would God take such a happy, pure soul and put it on a wasteland like this? To harden my heart? Why give me hope at all? Hope is hurt.